BMW Turbo engines versus others & Lexus - BMW could be among the most reliable?

[cg_ops]

The push for turbos is largely to maintain power/efficiency expectations of customers while also meeting the increasing emissions standards that are largely being driven by the EU (Euro 5, 6, and starting in Nov, Euro 7) and California (CARB). For a given power output, generally, turbo engines are smaller and more efficient than N/A.

Hell, the issue is even hitting my area of passion/expertise, motorcycles. I've been a rider since my sophmore year in college, back in 2000. I've been a racer, track day instructor, and MSF/CMSP instructor and have owned 11 bikes, 3 of which were Yamaha R6's - I've loved every one of them... but between the struggling sportbike market and emissions issues, Yamaha simply dropped them from the lineup. Larger twins, turbo/supercharged, and hybrid bikes (to a lesser extent electrics) are becoming the dominant force, rather than (my much-loved) I4 motors.

As much as I hate it, I also appreciate it - we need to be moving to greener/renewable sources of power/transportation. It's sad but also exciting that our sporty fossil fuel vehicles are going the way of the dinos... but, having driven EV bikes/cars/trucks, I'm excited for when the battery/charging issues are finally solved. Ironically, no combustion engine can touch the explosive power electric - 600, 800, 1000+ hp out of a 30-60lb motor?? It's nuts! The sound though? I will miss big N/A V8's, screaming turbos, and silky I4/I6 songs.

[Mikey240]

Originally Posted by cg_ops

The push for turbos is largely to maintain power/efficiency expectations of customers while also meeting the increasing emissions standards that are largely being driven by the EU (Euro 5, 6, and starting in Nov, Euro 7) and California (CARB). For a given power output, generally, turbo engines are smaller and more efficient than N/A.

Hell, the issue is even hitting my area of passion/expertise, motorcycles. I've been a rider since my sophmore year in college, back in 2000. I've been a racer, track day instructor, and MSF/CMSP instructor and have owned 11 bikes, 3 of which were Yamaha R6's - I've loved every one of them... but between the struggling sportbike market and emissions issues, Yamaha simply dropped them from the lineup. Larger twins, turbo/supercharged, and hybrid bikes (to a lesser extent electrics) are becoming the dominant force, rather than (my much-loved) I4 motors.

As much as I hate it, I also appreciate it - we need to be moving to greener/renewable sources of power/transportation. It's sad but also exciting that our sporty fossil fuel vehicles are going the way of the dinos... but, having driven EV bikes/cars/trucks, I'm excited for when the battery/charging issues are finally solved. Ironically, no combustion engine can touch the explosive power electric - 600, 800, 1000+ hp out of a 30-60lb motor?? It's nuts! The sound though? I will miss big N/A V8's, screaming turbos, and silky I4/I6 songs.

Yep, turbos are more common than ever and it’s both good and bad. As engines get smaller and smaller but the HP craze remains, the stress on the engines gets worse and worse. It’s amazing how much power they can squeeze out of small turbo 4 bangers or even my beloved B58. We’ll have to see about longevity and how these motors hold up.

Where I disagree is moving to EVs or greener options for ALL cars. For daily commuters and errand running, EVs make sense and I’d even consider one for our household once they sort out the issues as you pointed out.

But, for performance cars, exotics, muscle, etc….. please keep them petrol based. We’ve seen very low demand for EV powered "weekend" cars and it isn’t just the sound of the engine, it’s the visceral excitement, engine technology and on and on. There is nothing more of a let down than seeing a cool exotic or sports car pull into cars and coffee and for a "motor" it has batteries. Sorry, that’s just a buzzkill, IMO.

[johnboy00]

Originally Posted by cg_ops

Ironically, no combustion engine can touch the explosive power electric - 600, 800, 1000+ hp out of a 30-60lb motor?? It's nuts!

The Tesla Model S Plaid needs 3 motors to hit 1000 HP. Each one weighs around 75 pounds. And don't forget the battery back, which is around 1300 pounds.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by Mikey240

Turbo Beemer engines are really solid, in what Ive seen & experienced in my travels.

Some are better than others.
Others == atrocious, like all BMW hot-V turbo engines: N63, S63, S68, etc.

Originally Posted by Mikey240

I expect to get a long service life out of my B58.

The engine itself is a solid evolution on N55, which itself was a reliability improvement on N54.
B58 should last longer than its predecessors, as long as you don't mod it.
Everything else that is plastic in the engine bay, will not: cooling system, lots and lots of coolant leaks, oil filter housing, multiple other oil leaks, PCV, coolant pump with plastic impeller, plastic parts inside oil pump (yes, really), DI injection caking intake valves, etc.

Originally Posted by Mikey240

For daily commuters and errand running, EVs make sense and I’d even consider one for our household once they sort out the issues as you pointed out.

That's exactly how I roll - EV for daily/winter beater, ///M3 for fun/track.
No real issues left to sort-out with EVs, all you need is an L2 charger in your garage and cost per mile drops to 1/5 vs. modern ICE engine rides.

Originally Posted by Mikey240

We’ve seen very low demand for EV powered "weekend" cars and it isn’t just the sound of the engine, it’s the visceral excitement, engine technology and on and on.

Neah, it's not that.
Key detriment is weight - there is a limit to how much fun you can have on track in a 4.000+ lbs car, even if it has 500-1000+ hp. It's the same problem as you would have in an ///M5, which is why you hardly ever see those on track either.
The other issue is speed of recharging an EV on track. EV HP drops as state-of-charge drops, which is not a problem on public roads, but is a limiter on fun on track. I took my Model 3 Performance once, and even with SuperChargers in the paddock (and more nearby), there was barely enough time to recharge between run groups to 80+% SOC (needed 15-20 mins, which cut into classroom and socialization time). Luckily, there was only 2 other EVs attending that DE. If there were more than 4 EVs present, someone would have been left waiting, or would have had to play chicken with low-charge limp mode during the next DE session.

And yeah, the tires get shredded after 1 DE day due to weight and stupid HP vs. about full DE season for tires on my ///M3.

a

[25 V8 IS]

One thing that always gives me a little smile on my face is that whenever I drive my IS 500 hard (and I mean hard), no fan comes on in the engine bay.

My 335i, 340i and M2C had fans galore all the time after driving. It's the little things in life sometimes.

[cg_ops]

Originally Posted by johnboy00

The Tesla Model S Plaid needs 3 motors to hit 1000 HP. Each one weighs around 75 pounds. And don't forget the battery back, which is around 1300 pounds.

I spent a few years working in the industry for an AAIA/ACES data partner/supplier. The Tesla motors are already outdated by the current bleeding edge axial flux options (not even counting what's going on in China):

It produces an astonishing 800 horsepower and 922 lb-ft of torque but, amazingly, it's light enough to fit into a full-size backpack. This surprising powerhouse weighs in at only 86 lbs (39 kg), but it's powerful enough to outgun most gasoline engines on the road today

They're niche/unobtanium today, however, that'll only last until infrastructure is in place to build (similar) units at scale.

As to the weight (the pack actually weighs 1,056lb/479kg) several companies (e.g. Factorial Energy, QuantumScape, CATL and Solid Power who's partnering with BMW already) have already, or soon will release solid state batteries that will either weigh half as much or go twice as far - they're packing 375-450+ Wh/kg to Tesla's 240-250 Wh/kg, charge 15-90% in 15-18min vs Tesla's 10-80% in 20-25min, and will go ~3-5k charge cycles to Tesla's ~1.5k.

Traditional radial motors (like Tesla uses) suffer from high RPMs drop-off due to back-emf. Advanced axial and raxial flux motors sustain their massive peak torque much further into the rev range. Combined with a solid-state pack that won't overheat after one hot lap, the track endurance argument for gas cars is fundamentally moving toward its end... and, yes, I love the sound of my motorcycle's I4's, I3's, V-twins, as well as my RX7's scream (sadly, my M340 is stock). But I wouldn't pick a vehicle for the sound at the expense of total net performance.


Honestly, I'd guesstimate that by 2035 reasonably priced EV vehicles won't struggle to potentially hit 400hp+/wheel (e.g. Dark Matter unit), nearly-fully charge in ~10-15min, and weigh within 2-400lbs of a similarly specced gas vehicle. For track/racers/weekend-hooligans like myself, the explosive potential of 100% max torque at 0-to-any speed will kill any performance argument in favor of gas vehicles in all but the most niche/exotic situations.

This is all compounded by the fact that, though it might not be in our lifetimes, an economical ROI on the extraction of oil will run out. The sooner the transition the better for our health, ecology, and dependence on foreign energy.

[Mikey240]

Originally Posted by afadeev

Some are better than others.
Others == atrocious, like all BMW hot-V turbo engines: N63, S63, S68, etc.

The engine itself is a solid evolution on N55, which itself was a reliability improvement on N54.
B58 should last longer than its predecessors, as long as you don't mod it.
Everything else that is plastic in the engine bay, will not: cooling system, lots and lots of coolant leaks, oil filter housing, multiple other oil leaks, PCV, coolant pump with plastic impeller, plastic parts inside oil pump (yes, really), DI injection caking intake valves, etc.

That's exactly how I roll - EV for daily/winter beater, ///M3 for fun/track.
No real issues left to sort-out with EVs, all you need is an L2 charger in your garage and cost per mile drops to 1/5 vs. modern ICE engine rides.

Neah, it's not that.
Key detriment is weight - there is a limit to how much fun you can have on track in a 4.000+ lbs car, even if it has 500-1000+ hp. It's the same problem as you would have in an ///M5, which is why you hardly ever see those on track either.
The other issue is speed of recharging an EV on track. EV HP drops as state-of-charge drops, which is not a problem on public roads, but is a limiter on fun on track. I took my Model 3 Performance once, and even with SuperChargers in the paddock (and more nearby), there was barely enough time to recharge between run groups to 80+% SOC (needed 15-20 mins, which cut into classroom and socialization time). Luckily, there was only 2 other EVs attending that DE. If there were more than 4 EVs present, someone would have been left waiting, or would have had to play chicken with low-charge limp mode during the next DE session.

And yeah, the tires get shredded after 1 DE day due to weight and stupid HP vs. about full DE season for tires on my ///M3.

a

No mods planned here. I agree with Jay Emm on the B58: There is really no reason to muck with it anymore than the engineers already have. .

Yeah, some EV issues are sorted but not totally. Its doable, I agree and as I said, Im not against the concept of having one in the driveway for very specific purposes.

I guess I see your point about weight but IMO thats not the real detractor to an EV "weekend" car. Its still the lack of an engine, lack of sound, lack of being able to discuss engine tech at cars & coffee, etc. I just cant get behind full EV weekend/toy cars. But thats just me.