Rethinking EV’s?

[BenFenner]

It makes sense to maximize range. There is no debating this.

The reason it is not done for the most part is the popular skateboard architecture, supply chain/parts count reduction, and other financial and engineering efficiency gains.

And I get why new automotive manufacturers making EVs are headed that direction. But legacy manufacturers could easily be providing manual EVs with their existing chassis designs and manufacturing logistics and parts suppliers. We should have about a decade of these things being pumped out before the industry leaves this idea behind and maybe moves to pancake CVTs or I guess just lives with the inefficiency of single-ratio solutions. It's annoying they are wasting this (relatively narrow) opportunity.

[freakystyly]

I love the idea but it seems car companies and mass market consumers are already trying to phase out driver inputs as much as possible with self driving as the end goal. Going the other direction won't look good on their $$$ spreadsheets.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by BenFenner

A manual transmission is my non-negotiable.

There has been at least one production EV with a manual transmission, but it is way too old (1982) to consider, and has other problems. There have been a handful of modern prototypes, but nothing that has been taken seriously.

Of course there are thousands and thousands of them custom made by owners throughout the past ~3 decades, to varying degrees of success...

I'm tired of arguing with people about the benefits of multiple gear ratios for EVs. They provide much better energy efficiency, and performance gains. Electric motors (both AC and DC) are more energy efficient at low RPM but most powerful at a higher RPM. This is the EXACT reason we have multiple ratios for internal combustion engines, and it only makes sense to do the same for EVs.

Porsche figured this out and has 3 gear ratios in their AWD Taycan. The rear axle uses a 2-speed automatic transmission for acceleration, and the front axle provides a 3rd (even taller) ratio for efficiency. Multiple ratios just make sense for EVs in many ways, and if we're going to have them (and we should!) then I insist on rowing my own.

The plug-in hybrid BMWs with pancake motors upstream of the traditional transmission get industry-leading range and efficiency. This is the closest thing we have to a proof of concept but is being ignored because everyone is more excited about self-driving, or bigger iPads on the dash, or in-car ads, or using their smart phone as a key, etc.

So I will be forced to make my own. Odds are I'll convert our 6MT E53. But that's a project for after we build a house and go off-grid solar. And for after I finish the E36/8 and other automotive projects.

Please don't think BMW invented the Integrated Motor Assist (IMA), Honda did, nearly 30 years ago. The first production hybrid with IMA was Honda's Insight. The Insight did have a manual transmission version of the drivetrain.

That video you posted about a manual transmission EV was a clown show - LOL. Real automotive engineering shows a single-speed EV with regenerative braking solution is more energy efficient than a multi-speed manual EV, which is why all EV use such a setup.

[RockCrusher]

Originally Posted by jaffles

Agree home charging is a sad joke and a bit of a feel good ploy on the dealers behalf for new buyers. But its a start for a newish tech and thinking.

In Aus the general purpose wall socket charger that comes with the car is 240v/2kW, but its capped at 2 amps not to overload the home circuit even though its 10amp. You can upgrade to 7kW if you have a 15 amp circuit but the charger is still capped at 4 amps, and so still slow. Its not until you install 3 phase power, or have it already you can have a 22kW charger pumping in 22kW.

At present its an extra cost, but builders or renovators will add it as standard over time. No different to solar, battery, pool, or shed so to speak. I look forward to the day multiple cars are charging at home but all being paid for by the sun. I'm almost there having 3 phase and 13kW solar. For work we just fitted a 22kW charger under a 20kW 3 phase solar system. So virtually no power bill to run the business and now moving to cars to absorb the excess energy the solar makes as the grid offers 2c/kW feed in. Go figure though, as we bought the system from the grid no interest 5 year payment plan. So you could say our whole energy/fuel bill is around 4K a year and the grid still gets a cut. Pretty good for a business with a few cars. Won't get that from fossil fuels plus we have shielded ourselves from Energy wars.

Well, things are certainly different in Australia.

I am in Benton County AR in a nice townhouse with an attached garage. In the living quarters there is an electric stove/oven and clothes washer and clothes dryer. The stove/oven and dryer are 220V (single phase). Oh the electrical service here is a 200amp (single phase) service.

Just last week paid $287 to have a 220/240VAC outlet installed to use with the BMW charger and adapter cable to charge my new i4.

I had been using 120VAC and as soon as I could I gave the high voltage charging a try.

Approx. 4 times faster. At some point I noticed the A/C current charging limit was set to unlimited. I tried setting it to 24 amps and 40 amps and then back up to 48 amps. At any current charging setting I cannot detect any signs of any problems. And the charging speed with the charging current limit set to 40/48amps is quite impressive.

Yesterday charged battery from 43% SOC to 80% SOC. Took 3 hours 26 minutes and the charging level was at 9kWh the entire charging session.

When I charged with the A/C charging current limit set to 24 amps the kWh was 6. But at 40 amps it went to 9kWh. So it would appear the circuit can deliver reliably over time 9kWh.

The first charging session was at an AC Charge Point (a public charging station) and it charged the battery at 6kWh. And A/C charging current limit was set to unlimited.

With more experience under my belt I'm surprised at a public charger the charging was done at 6kWh while at home I can charge at 9kWh. The public charging station had two charger connections. The 2nd one was plugging into a Tesla but according to the display for that cable the battery charge target was reached and I assume there was no current draw that would have affected my charging session.

So sorry to read of charging limitations where you are but I'm thankful I have access to for home charging rather good charging speed. And cost is low. For 395 miles of i4 use I have spent ~$14 for electricity. That's 3.5 cents per mile.

But just to be clear the motivation for getting an i4 was not to avoid the pain at the pump but rather to experience a quality BEV and in the form of a nice driving car and so far the i4 had delivered in spades.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by jaffles

Agree home charging is a sad joke and a bit of a feel good ploy on the dealers behalf for new buyers.

You are either misunderstanding how home charging works, or spreading FUD.
I'm on my 6th EV (2 of those in my current fleet), still using the original 240V Siemens home EVSE I had installed ~15 years ago.
Works perfectly, can charge any car from 0-100% overnight, not that any of my cars ever reach 0%, or that I need to charge them more than once/week. But when I do, I plug them in in the evenging, and it is fully charged by the morning.

Originally Posted by jaffles

In Aus the general purpose wall socket charger that comes with the car is 240v/2kW, but its capped at 2 amps not to overload the home circuit even though its 10amp.

Sorry, that makes ZERO sense, or you are misinformed.
Any circuit can be wired for any level of current. Depending on the intended use.
In the US, all 120V general use circuits are sized for 15-20AMPs per US electric code. 20A for kitchen/laundry. US homes also have at least one (usually 2+) 240V circuits wired for 30A-60A. I repurposed one of those for my EVSE.

The usual limit is that total load should not exceed 80% of the breaking rating (e.g.: 16A max for a 20A breaker).
There is no way in hell would an Australian 240V circuit by capped at 2 AMPs. Perhaps you meant 20 AMPs?

Otherwise, W == V*A == 240 * 2 = 480 Watts --> that circuit will get tripped by a couple of decent sized light bulbs or a desktop computer!
Do you guys have hair dryers down under? If you do, your circuits must be sized for at least 15 AMPs (hair dryers run at 10-15 AMPs).

Originally Posted by RockCrusher

Just last week paid $287 to have a 220/240VAC outlet installed to use with the BMW charger and adapter cable to charge my new i4.
Approx. 4 times faster. At some point I noticed the A/C current charging limit was set to unlimited. I tried setting it to 24 amps and 40 amps and then back up to 48 amps. At any current charging setting I cannot detect any signs of any problems. And the charging speed with the charging current limit set to 40/48amps is quite impressive.

My EVSE (aka L2 home charger) is plugged into repurposed electric dryer outlet (washer/dryer room shares a wall with the garage, as is typical in most US homes). IIRC, it is wired for 40AMPs, and I've been running it soft limited to 80% of that, or 32 AMPs.
32 AMPS at 240V == 7.68KW per hour of charging.
Most EV batteries are sized between 50–82 kWh. Mine are 82 kWh NCA and 72.8 kWh LFP. Basic math will tell you that I could fully recharge both in 10.6 or 9.5 hours, not that I've ever had a chance to charge for that long since the lowest I've ever gotten any EV battery was in low teens.

It's worthwhile to point out that my 82 kWh Model 3 can (optimistically) go for 353 miles on a full charge, at the cost of $0.14 per kW. Thus $11.48 for 353 miles, or $0.0325 per mile.

The best either of my ICE cars can do is 27 MPG on the highway (best case scenario). At the current ~$4.00 per gallon (for cheap stuff, $4.79 for premium), that's $0.1481 per mile.

Or 4.56 multiple delta between the two powertrains.
Or, assuming 10K miles/year, $1,156.27 cost savings per year of EV - ICE. Or a full set of track tires worth of savings per year!

YMMV,
a

[RockCrusher]

So far with 432 miles on my i4 I have spent <$20 for charging. That works out to $0.046/mile. With my Ridgeline that same 432 miles would have cost me $0.24/mile.

While I didn't quite average 10K miles per year in the Ridgeline say I did. Thus that 10K miles would cost me $2400 for gasoline. The same 10K miles in my i4 will cost me $460 for electricity.

I'm not complaining but I didn't get the i4 for saving money on fuel rather I got it for the peace of mind being able to use the i4 for the type of driving I do: short trips; without any concern for the short trips' negative effects on the i4.

These short trips I feared would prove hard on the Ridgeline and to mitigate this to some extent I took the long way home but this often doubled (or more) the miles just the errand alone would require.

With the i4 I just focus on driving the i4 in a reasonably economical fashion. Not so much to save money but to get the most usage out of the vehicle between charging sessions although so far I have elected to charge early and often rather run the battery *way* down.

With the i4 and its 10K mile limit per year I'm now seeking to pick the nearest destination and take the shortest route to the destination to reduce the miles I put on the i4. But because the i4 is such a joy to drive I want to pick the more distant destinations and take the long way to and from these destinations.

Charging takes place at 9kWh. And most charging sessions are to bring the SOC from ~70% to 80%.

I am noticing the battery range in miles is going up. Used to be charging to 80% ended with the range at 180 miles. But the last charge -- yesterday evening -- had the range at the end of charging at 205 miles.

Wonder if the battery is "breaking in"....

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by RockCrusher

I am noticing the battery range in miles is going up. Used to be charging to 80% ended with the range at 180 miles. But the last charge -- yesterday evening -- had the range at the end of charging at 205 miles.

Wonder if the battery is "breaking in"....

It is not.
Two factors are playing out - your ambient temps are rising (seasonal), and EVs are most efficient in 60-90F temp range when zero energy is wasted on battery heating or cooling.
Also, the "Range" estimate in the EV is just as good (or as bad) and "Range" estimate in your ICE car - it's the best guess based on your recent driving history. If you have been driving in a way that consumed less energy recently (or driving downhill or downwind), the range estimate will go up on the assumption that you will continue driving the same way.

HTH,
a

[BenFenner]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Please don't think BMW invented the Integrated Motor Assist (IMA)

What made you think I believed that?

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The Insight did have a manual transmission version of the drivetrain.

I'm aware of at least 5 different production, manual (parallel) hybrids. Cool I guess, but parallel hybrids are their own can of worms that make no sense to me as an engineering solution or thing to buy, ever.

Series hybrids, sure... I guess. If you have to. Ideally with the range-extender detachable like the AC Propulsion tZero had.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Real automotive engineering shows a single-speed EV with regenerative braking solution is more energy efficient than a multi-speed manual EV, which is why all EV use such a setup.

All EVs? Not even close. Did you miss the part where I explained the AWD Porche Taycan has 3 ratios? And PLENTY of AWD EVs have two ratios. Likely most of them.

Originally Posted by BenFenner

I'm tired of arguing with people about the benefits of multiple gear ratios for EVs.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by BenFenner

What made you think I believed that?


I'm aware of at least 5 different production, manual (parallel) hybrids. Cool I guess, but parallel hybrids are their own can of worms that make no sense to me as an engineering solution or thing to buy, ever.

Series hybrids, sure... I guess. If you have to. Ideally with the range-extender detachable like the AC Propulsion tZero had.

All EVs? Not even close. Did you miss the part where I explained the AWD Porche Taycan has 3 ratios? And PLENTY of AWD EVs have two ratios. Likely most of them.

"The plug-in hybrid BMWs with pancake motors upstream of the traditional transmission get industry-leading range and efficiency. This is the closest thing we have to a proof of concept but is being ignored..."

You mentioned the Taycan. A 2-speed automatic rear transaxle with a separate front EV drive with a different single-speed reduction gear. That is not use of a multi-cog manual transmission and not an automatic transmission with 3 speeds. Come on man.

The e-Tron and Taycan are the same VW AG. Platform.

The Gen 1 Honda Insight was replaced by the CR-Z as a sport hatchback version, while the 2nd Gen Insight went up scale to compete with the Prius. Both Hondas are off the market in 2026.

[BTB_6MT]

We have 2 EVs and a diesel SUV. My EV is going back, being replaced with an M2 6MT. My wife loves EVs because she never has to go to a gas station - we have an L2 charger in our garage.

Mine is a 2024 Polestar 2 LRDM. Quick, handles ok now that I put proper Michelin Pilot Sport All Season 4's on it. But...there is no soul. And they really are super heavy...the PS2 is nearly exactly the same weight as my 2017 Land Rover Discovery Diesel SUV, at half the size.

I will say - the first PS2 I owned saved my life. Took a T-Bone collision from a stoned unlicensed, uninsured driver who ran a red light at 80mph. Hit me like a home run...car didn't flip, airbags cocooned me instantly, and all I had was a cracked rib from the seatbelt and some abrasions. Other guy was in a Kia Shitbox subcompact sedan, I don't think he made it. We slid over 140 feet after the impact. Mass is mass, physics is physics.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by BTB_6MT

We have 2 EVs and a diesel SUV. My EV is going back, being replaced with an M2 6MT. My wife loves EVs because she never has to go to a gas station - we have an L2 charger in our garage.

Mine is a 2024 Polestar 2 LRDM. Quick, handles ok now that I put proper Michelin Pilot Sport All Season 4's on it. But...there is no soul. And they really are super heavy...the PS2 is nearly exactly the same weight as my 2017 Land Rover Discovery Diesel SUV, at half the size.

I will say - the first PS2 I owned saved my life. Took a T-Bone collision from a stoned unlicensed, uninsured driver who ran a red light at 80mph. Hit me like a home run...car didn't flip, airbags cocooned me instantly, and all I had was a cracked rib from the seatbelt and some abrasions. Other guy was in a Kia Shitbox subcompact sedan, I don't think he made it. We slid over 140 feet after the impact. Mass is mass, physics is physics.

The other part of what minimized the injuries you could have sustained is the required structural design to prevent any intrusion/mechanical damage to the high voltage battery which is part of the floor pan of the car. Lithium Ion batteries do not tolerate any intrusion/physical damage.

[BTB_6MT]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

The other part of what minimized the injuries you could have sustained is the required structural design to prevent any intrusion/mechanical damage to the high voltage battery which is part of the floor pan of the car. Lithium Ion batteries do not tolerate any intrusion/physical damage.

There was plenty of intrusion and damage. There was 22" of intrusion into the passenger side - had my wife or son been in the car they likely would have been severely injured or killed. The impact was dead center on the B-pillar - the guy's license plate was imprinted on the impact spot. The PS2 has an automated and triple-redundant hard cut to the main electrical bus when a sufficient collision is detected, it happens in something like 25 milliseconds.

It also has an airbag between the front seats as well as full curtain bags. The steering wheel airbag didn't go off because it wasn't needed. All I saw was the white flash-bang of the airbags inflating around me and I was spinning. I didn't even have any whiplash...while they took me to a trauma center, I walked out a couple hours later.

[RACE M3]

I don't drive enough to care these days; it's an extra $500-700 a year if I had to overestimate. I do love the convenience for my wife. It's always charged and ready to go.

This is all bs to profit from the market. Play your shorts and calls correctly and when wild things happen you can always profit more than the actual expense. I personally love when things are great and equally as much when there's uncertainty. I don't profit when things are just okay. haha

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by BTB_6MT

There was plenty of intrusion and damage. There was 22" of intrusion into the passenger side - had my wife or son been in the car they likely would have been severely injured or killed. The impact was dead center on the B-pillar - the guy's license plate was imprinted on the impact spot. The PS2 has an automated and triple-redundant hard cut to the main electrical bus when a sufficient collision is detected, it happens in something like 25 milliseconds.

It also has an airbag between the front seats as well as full curtain bags. The steering wheel airbag didn't go off because it wasn't needed. All I saw was the white flash-bang of the airbags inflating around me and I was spinning. I didn't even have any whiplash...while they took me to a trauma center, I walked out a couple hours later.

I'm focusing at the lower frame rail. That area has to be reinforced to support the weight of the batteries along with provide a protective shield from direct impacts to the batteries. Looks to me that the chassis design did it's job to prevent heavy intrusion into the battery pack. Doesn't matter if there is a hard cut to the main electrical bus. If there is mechanical damage to the high voltage battery pack it's going to light off.

[jaffles]

What I am finding in trucks, will relate to cars, and its lack of dealer training, knowledge, and support of E anything. Reckon many dealers are dragged kicking and screaming to sell evs, and the further you go from the big smoke that harder it all gets. That doesn't have to be all that far either. No different really to modern ICE cars, but with retiring mechanics and fewer young people interested in getting their hands dirty, evs are a harder reality than ice for dealers and owners.

Just has a tune put in my 2010 BMW. The ex 20year BMW tech who did it said even back then BMW had acknowledged the difficulty finding good skilled staff. So a good part why this 15 year old car has 25 computers in it, is to identify, code, so to simply replace the questionable part. Its marketed as performance for us, but its really image, sales and profit for the company.

[BTB_6MT]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

I'm focusing at the lower frame rail. That area has to be reinforced to support the weight of the batteries along with provide a protective shield from direct impacts to the batteries. Looks to me that the chassis design did it's job to prevent heavy intrusion into the battery pack. Doesn't matter if there is a hard cut to the main electrical bus. If there is mechanical damage to the high voltage battery pack it's going to light off.

Yeah that was my first concern when the good samaritans and first responders got there - in early 2023 few people had seen a Polestar and I wasn't sure they knew it was an EV, so I was like "IS THERE A FIRE?? THIS IS AN EV" because they were of course telling me to stay still, and some rando wanted to practice starting an IV line and I was like F*** NO where is the f***ing fire department? Get me out of here! But it was fine.

The Polestar 2 is actually on an ICE platform - it was originally going to be the new Volvo S40 but they canxd that and gave the platform to Volvo. It still has a transmission hump, and I think some of the battery packs are stacked in it so there might be some buffer space along the sides.

[kilowatt88]

I find it hilarious that people are seriously contemplating a price of a new EV vs even doubling the price of gas.
Hilarious!

[RockCrusher]

Originally Posted by kilowatt88

I find it hilarious that people are seriously contemplating a price of a new EV vs even doubling the price of gas.
Hilarious!

It is an overreaction to be sure.

However, if one is faced with the need to replace a vehicle/get a new vehicle there is no harm in comparing the pure ICE to a hybrid to an EV and being informed make the right decision.

If it happens to be hybrid/EV and it happens to coincide with the increase in gasoline prices that could be fortuitous.

For one reason or another though over reaction to the gasoline price has to be near if not at the top of the list a good number of drivers/vehicle owners have made the switch so many in fact there is talk of a resurrection of the EV due to the not inconsequential increase in demand.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by BTB_6MT

Yeah that was my first concern when the good samaritans and first responders got there - in early 2023 few people had seen a Polestar and I wasn't sure they knew it was an EV, so I was like "IS THERE A FIRE?? THIS IS AN EV" because they were of course telling me to stay still, and some rando wanted to practice starting an IV line and I was like F*** NO where is the f***ing fire department? Get me out of here! But it was fine.

The Polestar 2 is actually on an ICE platform - it was originally going to be the new Volvo S40 but they canxd that and gave the platform to Volvo. It still has a transmission hump, and I think some of the battery packs are stacked in it so there might be some buffer space along the sides.

I'm glad you were not severely injured in that accident. Just out of curiosity, I take it the accident happened in Colorado? My niece was in a similar accident in Denver, except from the rear rather than the side. My niece was hit by an unlicensed, uninsured, highly "medicated" driver who plowed into her at 70+ MPH and caused a 7-car chain reaction accident. My niece was in a Ford Escape and unfortunately at the start of the chain reaction (i.e. the first car hit). The vehicle in front of my niece was a truck; the collision put the rearend of the Escape all the up to the rear of the front seats and the front end collapsed all the way up to the windshield. The roof buckled downward and cut open her scalp and knocked her out. The EMTs told her later that they thought she was dead and did not know how she survived the collision.

Your story and my niece's accident remind me to not drive in the drug free zone that is now Colorado. If the asshat that hit you "didn't make it" all the better for him.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by RockCrusher

It is an overreaction to be sure.

However, if one is faced with the need to replace a vehicle/get a new vehicle there is no harm in comparing the pure ICE to a hybrid to an EV and being informed make the right decision.

If it happens to be hybrid/EV and it happens to coincide with the increase in gasoline prices that could be fortuitous.

For one reason or another though over reaction to the gasoline price has to be near if not at the top of the list a good number of drivers/vehicle owners have made the switch so many in fact there is talk of a resurrection of the EV due to the not inconsequential increase in demand.

Agree if one is in need to replace a vehicle. But the high gas prices are temporary and will go down once the conflict is over. Gas prices back in 2011 were higher then than they are now when adjusted for inflation.

I will need to replace my pickup truck in a few years, and I'm signed up to buy a Slate as it's replacement. I just now use my truck for local trips, mainly to haul trash to the dump and pick up gasoline and diesel fuel for my property maintenance equipment. My truck is just aging out and parts are becoming unavailable.

[Car-Addicted]

It's not fuel prices, it's energy prices and all forms of energy are effected. The cost of ownership of any vehicle will significantly out weight the delta of any energy source you choose. This argument in nothing more than a rationalization for your choice to go electric.

[jaffles]

Originally Posted by kilowatt88

I find it hilarious that people are seriously contemplating a price of a new EV vs even doubling the price of gas.
Hilarious!

Not sure I'd be laughing too hard.

I don't think any of it is going to go down, or settling anywhere near where it kicked off from. America is largely insular to being the market size you are and resources you have. Energy up 5c in 15 years is an example, where ours has increased 30-40% in that period. It has gone down 5% due to more Chinese made infrastructure being rolled out however. Energy from the sun and wind if far more stable than oil and gas in my book. Far less to squabble over but they eventually find a way.

A little for you usually means a lot for the rest of the world. Like Asia (except China) is about to stop as its economy is based on imported oil or gas as they have no resources, just cheaper labour. India for example makes 20% of the worlds tiles, the industry is about to close so what does that mean for builders/renovators in America. Hormuze Straight is 20% of the worlds oil and who would have thought.

This war however is also effecting China's oil and they are a fast emerging market 4 times America. China invested heavily in Venezuela when the US left, they were getting paid in oil for doing so but now Donny says he owns it. So that little sleeper has yet to emerge.

I sold my American truck, bought a European truck, and now looking at Chinese E prime mover to haul 45T 400km a day. Why, its almost the same price as the American electric product if it were available, only 100k more than an American diesel, and 1/3 cheaper and goes further than the European e truck. Cost $80 a day in energy at 17c kW opposed to $570 in diesel at $3lt. It has a service once a year for 1/4 a day to adjust the bogy brakes, but could be done in less I imagine. Opposed to 3 x 35,000km 3/4 to 1 day for oil and filters on a diesel the dealer wants for my type of work. Power plant warranted for 1.5 million km opposed top 750K in the diesel, of which mine at 650k and out of warranty and needs a 70K rebuild.

It has support but its very different to traditional dealers and spare parts warehouses, but it may be far more reliable. I have not heard E owners talk about servicing or down time at all. Charge times are the concern and this thing will do it while I am asleep, so no cueing at truck stops while drivers take a dump, have lunch, and waddle out after 35 minutes.

The crack in the dam wall is there, its just take up and once one can prove its a far better deal and can be done, its very easy for others to follow.