Camber plates advice please

[TheMechanic]

Hi,

I ran 3 hours on the Thompson Speedway track yesterday, and my front left tire... got destroyed really. What is the best, easiest to install camber plate you guys recommend?

I also need advice for tires again, I lost track of previous thread. I want something that will work on the street in summer (got snow tires and wheels for winter) and hold their own on the track.

I guess I could spring for cup 2's , but they are pricey and I hate how they throw every little pebble and rock all around the car (had them on my GT350R) .

Thanks all.

[TheMechanic]

These are Michelin Pilot Supersports. Rears and right side look ok, no holes in them from overheating

I guess I can do 2 more track days with this if I swap it on the other side, no?

Just kidding

[Estoril Blue]

What were your hot pressures?

[TheMechanic]

Originally Posted by Estoril Blue

What were your hot pressures?

Tried to keep under 40, so about 37 - 38. But again, this track is VERY heavy on front left tire, a few right hander hairpins, first one coming down from the straight where I hit 122mph...

My left brake pad (inner) got completely shaved, when I got home is was metal to metal . It was less than half worn when I started, but DS2500s do wear quickly on track, that was me being a fool.

I have the pins removed to get max camber, so it's at -1.5 or so. I bought Dinan camber plates and I hope they do give you an extra 0.7, so with 2.5 I should be fine I guess...

[sperkins]

Since you just purchased my camber plates, i'll give you my .02 worth.
Higher pressures will be better, as you will want the sidewall to be as stiff as it can be. I dont think i would go with a "stickier" tire, as its just going to force the tire to roll over more. Are you using the factory springs? If not, I would go with the Swift specR. They're a little bit stiffer, and might help keeping the car from rolling as much (in a right turn, the body roll will pull the outside tire from the bottom, decreasing camber.) Not sure if a bigger sway bar will help, as that might make the front end skate in tighter turns.

There are a bunch of dudes on here with a ton of suspension knowledge that will hopefully chime in.

[bipp]

Originally Posted by TheMechanic

My left brake pad (inner) got completely shaved, when I got home is was metal to metal . It was less than half worn when I started, but DS2500s do wear quickly on track, that was me being a fool.

DS2500s don't hold up on track. I still run the in the rear, but my last pad fell apart. Like, chunk of pad fell off.

that will work on the street in summer

AD09 or ECF. Cup2 is pricy for what they are. ECF wasn't designed for street in mind but seems to last a long time - prefers a single long heat cycle without fade instead of many, many short heat cycles. AD09 might have had street driving a bit more in mind. Both of these should last you a while between summer street / track driving though.

For what it's worth, I was at around -3 on street tires (Conti ECS) and 700 / 800 springs and I was still devouring the outer edge. Some tires just won't hold up as well to track abuse - the answer would be to find something better suited to it, since you are running into chunking tread and not just excessive outer edge wear. Front bar might help as well though for roll stiffness. Are you chalking your tires to see the extent of rollover? Are you simply overdriving the tires?

edit: if this is something that happens exceptionally at your local track, running a square setup with frequent rotation as well as a tire that can be flipped on the rim (i.e., ECF) will even out the wear.

[TheMechanic]

Originally Posted by bipp

DS2500s don't hold up on track. I still run the in the rear, but my last pad fell apart. Like, chunk of pad fell off.



AD09 or ECF. Cup2 is pricy for what they are. ECF wasn't designed for street in mind but seems to last a long time - prefers a single long heat cycle without fade instead of many, many short heat cycles. AD09 might have had street driving a bit more in mind. Both of these should last you a while between summer street / track driving though.

For what it's worth, I was at around -3 on street tires (Conti ECS) and 700 / 800 springs and I was still devouring the outer edge. Some tires just won't hold up as well to track abuse - the answer would be to find something better suited to it, since you are running into chunking tread and not just excessive outer edge wear. Front bar might help as well though for roll stiffness. Are you chalking your tires to see the extent of rollover? Are you simply overdriving the tires?

edit: if this is something that happens exceptionally at your local track, running a square setup with frequent rotation as well as a tire that can be flipped on the rim (i.e., ECF) will even out the wear.

Thanks a lot! I guess I will try the Contis as I am a big fan of them
On my X3 .. and did well on my 335xi now sold.
Yes this only happens at Thompson .. other tracks I go
I have pretty even wear. Well outer edge a bit more but u get the gist

[TheMechanic]

Originally Posted by sperkins

Since you just purchased my camber plates, i'll give you my .02 worth.
Higher pressures will be better, as you will want the sidewall to be as stiff as it can be. I dont think i would go with a "stickier" tire, as its just going to force the tire to roll over more. Are you using the factory springs? If not, I would go with the Swift specR. They're a little bit stiffer, and might help keeping the car from rolling as much (in a right turn, the body roll will pull the outside tire from the bottom, decreasing camber.) Not sure if a bigger sway bar will help, as that might make the front end skate in tighter turns.

There are a bunch of dudes on here with a ton of suspension knowledge that will hopefully chime in.

Thank you. Suspension is stock .. adjustable electric thing. Driving
On more aggressive M mode unless I forget to push the
Button when I get out 😀

On this track If I go over 40 things get ugly.. understeer
Land and rear swinging like crazy I am mostly drifting

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by TheMechanic

These are Michelin Pilot Supersports. Rears and right side look ok, no holes in them from overheating I guess I can do 2 more track days with this if I swap it on the other side, no? Just kidding

LOL - are you blaming the tires for over heating. ?

[TheMechanic]

Originally Posted by DrFerry

LOL - are you blaming the tires for over heating. ?

I am not where did I say that? It's my fault... I did drive almost 100 % that day... to be expected.

[bipp]

Originally Posted by TheMechanic

Thanks a lot! I guess I will try the Contis as I am a big fan of them
On my X3 .. and did well on my 335xi now sold.
Yes this only happens at Thompson .. other tracks I go
I have pretty even wear. Well outer edge a bit more but u get the gist

If you are tracking more, than the 200tw Conti ECF that was developed with Hoosier is the one to go for. The ECS or DWS that you ran on the X3 or 335 is a completely different tire.

With that in mind, the 340tw ECS02 as a street-focused tire is still likely to be trackable and does better in the wet. It won't be as durable on track by virtue of being a street tire though, with much softer sidewalls.

If you are chunking tires that badly though, the ECF seems like the better option, as well as perhaps an instructor in the right seat to help advise on when you are overdriving the car.

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by TheMechanic

I am not where did I say that? It's my fault... I did drive almost 100 % that day... to be expected.

Here's a chart from Grass Roots Motorsports showing their test data for streetable track tires. To avoid tread compound delamination (chunking and tearing) due to the tread compound over heating on track, use at least -3.0 degrees of front camber, less steer angle when the front tires are at their limit (i.e. avoid temptation to dial in even more steer angle), avoid hot tread compound temps over 200F (come into the pits hot and measure temp data), use a pyrometer to dial in tread temperatures with <= 10F temp spread between inner and outer shoulders. For streetable (DOT legal) track tires, maintain a hot temperature ceiling of <=40psi on a car weighing less than ~4000lbs. Start with cooler cold temps if the ceiling is being exceeded.
Edit: See all of the "care and feeding" files attached and Michelin Motorsports .pdf tire catalog link: https://adzktgbqdq.cloudimg.io/https...compressed.pdf

[TheMechanic]

Originally Posted by bipp

If you are tracking more, than the 200tw Conti ECF that was developed with Hoosier is the one to go for. The ECS or DWS that you ran on the X3 or 335 is a completely different tire.

With that in mind, the 340tw ECS02 as a street-focused tire is still likely to be trackable and does better in the wet. It won't be as durable on track by virtue of being a street tire though, with much softer sidewalls.

If you are chunking tires that badly though, the ECF seems like the better option, as well as perhaps an instructor in the right seat to help advise on when you are overdriving the car.

Thank you.

Do you think ps4s is similar in performance to ECS02 ? The Extreme contact force don't show up in stock size, 245/35/19 ?

But yeah, this track is extremely heavy on front left. I saw instructors I spoke with dialing in camber on left just for this track; mostly on highly modified Miatas etc. One had a GT350 with camber plates and he was going on -3.2 ish camber... I have tools for camber and toe ( do my own alignment) but max I could do is ~ 1.5 with pins out. I think my left side is actually less for some reason, although I got new arms and suspension/steering bits all over.

[DrFerry]

The Tire Talk Mega Thread in the Track/ Autocross/ Dragstrip/ Driving Techniques sub forum:
https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1916791

[1FastSicilian]

Originally Posted by TheMechanic

Tried to keep under 40, so about 37 - 38. But again, this track is VERY heavy on front left tire, a few right hander hairpins, first one coming down from the straight where I hit 122mph...

My left brake pad (inner) got completely shaved, when I got home is was metal to metal . It was less than half worn when I started, but DS2500s do wear quickly on track, that was me being a fool.

Thompson is def. rough on the tires as its a prety crappy track (surface wise). I've done several days there so I completely understand.

Are you running with DSC on, off or MDM mode?

If you're wiht DSC on, I can see why your pad wore down on the inside.. I did 2 days there and barely made a difference on the pad life bc you're not really braking that much.. I run with euro mdm at thompson..

[TheMechanic]

Originally Posted by 1FastSicilian

Thompson is def. rough on the tires as its a prety crappy track (surface wise). I've done several days there so I completely understand.

Are you running with DSC on, off or MDM mode?

If you're wiht DSC on, I can see why your pad wore down on the inside.. I did 2 days there and barely made a difference on the pad life bc you're not really braking that much.. I run with euro mdm at thompson..

I started with DSC on (MDM mode) for first 2 sessions (one hour) and then took it off as I was annoyed how much is cutting off.... so about 1.5 h on and rest off... Got better lap times with it off. I ran with masstuning this time, they have an hour of open track at the end, and I was alone the last 30 min, everyone was out by then

But there are a few straights followed by tight turns, so I do brake a lot though... the main straight is coming from 122mph to a 40 or so in first turn... After that hour session, my brakes were smoking ... I did a slow trip to the gates and back trying to cool them down a bit.

[TheMechanic]

The beauty with the M3 is that you only shift once on the straight, 3 -4 , all the rest of the track can be done in 3rd gear, just reaching 7k rpm's before you brake

[omgzirra_exe]

IF you ever track on PS4S or ECS02 you need your hot temps to be way more than 37psi, literally at like 40-42psi by end of session so they don't end up chunking.

if you did not reach those temps, then start with a higher cold pressure again.. depending on your day forecast you might have to figure out the cold temps assuming a 6-8psi increase in pressure on track.


V730, CR-S V2, RE71RS, Direzza III, ECF - are all my picks for 200TW which if you keep as a set of dedicated track tires will last you quiet a few track days.

[bipp]

Originally Posted by TheMechanic

Thank you.

Do you think ps4s is similar in performance to ECS02 ? The Extreme contact force don't show up in stock size, 245/35/19 ?

But yeah, this track is extremely heavy on front left. I saw instructors I spoke with dialing in camber on left just for this track; mostly on highly modified Miatas etc. One had a GT350 with camber plates and he was going on -3.2 ish camber... I have tools for camber and toe ( do my own alignment) but max I could do is ~ 1.5 with pins out. I think my left side is actually less for some reason, although I got new arms and suspension/steering bits all over.

Honestly, I feel like -3 is a sort of minimum for our cars at the track... you don't lose much on the street and I plan on moving to -3.5 or so down the line to get better tire wear as even then I think I could get a bit more out of the outer edge. Every session on my tires right now is $60... would love to get that down.

I have never driven the PS4S or ECS02, only the original ECS. Those two should be similar. I chunked my original ECS, moved to ECF, and haven't looked back from 200s. You will need to not overdrive and take cooldown laps if you want 300+ tires to last.

For sizing, just go 275/35/18 or 295/30/18 square on 18x10.5 whenever you are able. The ability to rotate got me 2 more days on Nankang CRS since both tracks I have gone to are CCW. Effectively, that would have made a $450/day consumable down to $300/day. If I had more camber and got a 7th day, then that's a substantial savings as well. See (https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=503) for my current tire wear/breakdown. (I probably have a 7th day, but the outer tread is <1mm, the tires feel super edgy, and I have no desire to make a 6 hour roundtrip drive for tires that have a chance of cording. If there was more meat, I'd try to eke out a 7th day and maybe part of another just to get my money's worth)

Check out the GRM tire guide occasionally. DrFerry's image is a good rundown of the options but I believe they have updated it since and they do so every few months.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by bipp

Honestly, I feel like -3 is a sort of minimum for our cars at the track... you don't lose much on the street and I plan on moving to -3.5 or so down the line to get better tire wear as even then I think I could get a bit more out of the outer edge. Every session on my tires right now is $60... would love to get that down.

I have never driven the PS4S or ECS02, only the original ECS. Those two should be similar. I chunked my original ECS, moved to ECF, and haven't looked back from 200s. You will need to not overdrive and take cooldown laps if you want 300+ tires to last.

For sizing, just go 275/35/18 or 295/30/18 square on 18x10.5 whenever you are able. The ability to rotate got me 2 more days since both tracks I have gone to are CCW. Effectively, that would have made a $450/day consumable down to $300/day. If I had more camber and got a 7th day, then that's a substantial savings as well. See (https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=503) for my current tire wear/breakdown. (I probably have a 7th day, but the outer tread is <1mm, the tires feel super edgy, and I have no desire to make a 6 hour roundtrip drive for tires that have a chance of cording. If there was more meat, I'd try to eke out a 7th day and maybe part of another just to get my money's worth)

Check out the GRM tire guide occasionally. DrFerry's image is a good rundown of the options but I believe they have updated it since and they do so every few months.

-3.2F and -2R is my sweet spot for a car that’s driven to the track and back home.

On a conservative tire setup like 275/35/18SQ, it works well, but with wider tires, I have to bump it up to -3.5 or up to -3.7F and up to -2.5R. Having eccentric lockouts for the rear camber helps a lot with tire wear since camber changes dynamically without them.

[bipp]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

-3.2F and -2R is my sweet spot for a car that’s driven to the track and back home.

On a conservative tire setup like 275/35/18SQ, it works well, but with wider tires, I have to bump it up to -3.5 or up to -3.7F and up to -2.5R. Having eccentric lockouts for the rear camber helps a lot with tire wear since camber changes dynamically without them.

Interesting, I was planning on trying -3.3/-2.2 to keep the same "ratio" F/R, and I figure the rear could use camber for wear as well. Good to know about the eccentric lockouts. Those and replacing the toe arm with something adjustable were going to be the next things I do to my suspension. Kind of a moot point since my next set is ECF and I fully realize trying to run ECF to cords is an exercise in futility (and heat cycling).

Also good to know about further camber for wider tires. I felt like that was necessary just to fit them under the fenders anyways, but makes sense. I figure with 0 toe up front the extra camber shouldn't kill the insides anyways for street driving.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by bipp

Interesting, I was planning on trying -3.3/-2.2 to keep the same "ratio" F/R, and I figure the rear could use camber for wear as well. Good to know about the eccentric lockouts. Those and replacing the toe arm with something adjustable were going to be the next things I do to my suspension. Kind of a moot point since my next set is ECF and I fully realize trying to run ECF to cords is an exercise in futility (and heat cycling).

Also good to know about further camber for wider tires. I felt like that was necessary just to fit them under the fenders anyways, but makes sense. I figure with 0 toe up front the extra camber shouldn't kill the insides anyways for street driving.

The Fall Line rear camber shim kit is great for an OEM rear setup.

Just keep in mind that more negative camber = more heat in your tires, so it really depends on your needs and goals. If you need to generate more heat, then running more negative camber is necessary. However, there’s a point where adding more doesn’t necessarily improve performance—going from -3 to -3.5 degrees, for example, might not yield better lap times and could reduce your contact patch, depending on tire size.

Too much camber can also affect braking performance. Excessive camber can still compromise overall grip, making the car slower despite ideal tire temps. It’s all about finding the right balance between mid-corner grip and maintaining stability under braking and acceleration. IMO, it comes down to driving style—some prefer more entry grip at the cost of exit speed, while others prioritize stability on corner exit and sacrifice some initial turn-in response.

Personally, I tend to adjust my camber settings before fine-tuning tire pressures. Camber adjustments give me much faster and more noticeable results, whereas tire pressure changes don’t impact tire temps as drastically. Once I dial in the camber, I’ll fine-tune the pressure to get the most even temps across the tire.

Marking your camber settings on your plates is a good idea if you plan to swap between street and track setups.