E46 or e92

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Okay - spent some time reading older posts (circa 2012) about the Vishnu/Procede meth setup, and others. Some of your posts, etc.

I still have more reading to do.... however:

I think what I'm experiencing is the S65's sensitivity to octane and ambient temps. If it's anything like the S54, it's very inconsistent in its power output. Here in Cali with 91 octane, the 46M can really fall flat on it's face at times, particularly in warm weather. Sometimes the car will rip and other time feel like an Accord 4cyl as th ECU is pulling timing like crazy in certain conditions.

So, the S65 is probably even more sensitive and I'm probably feeling that as I drive more of them. In fact, yesterday while driving the '09, I actually heard a slight engine "ping" just after an aggressive upshift, which was both alarming AND confirmation that the motor wasn't happy = low on power. It was warm yesterday, about 85* F, and for all I know Carmax had 87 octane in the tank and/or crappy gas. And that particular car may be on "old" software, see point 3 below.

More research to to do, BUT, I'm intrigued by:

1. Primary cat delete/xpipe : dynos show big bottom/mid gains even on facotry BMW tune
2. Making sure that the car has the latest factory BMW tune (apparently some early tunes were "slow" and not all cars were updated)
3. Proper tune (ideally with meth, is this still relevant?) for maximum consistency and big top end gains.

I know this is really old stuff for you guys, but I'm literally a totally noob when it comes to this platform BUT I'm really interested in making the switch... but only if the S65/E9XM platform can actually be super fun/responsive/quick in NA form without having to always be above 6k rpm. Sounds like it can be.

Where are you test driving the car? If your just flooring it on highway entry ramps it won't feel 'woah scary' quick if you are used to fast cars. It should still feel quick though. Floor it on a twisty road above 4k RPM and you will realise how fast it actually is. The refinement and smooth torque band really masks the delivery, particularly in a wide open space.

Also as you mentioned, they are quite sensitive to ambient temps. In the North East winters my car feels quicker, no doubt about it. It certainly revs more keenly. I only run the car on 93.

The example you drove my also be a little tired, when were the spark plugs last changed on it?

[ItsGary]

Originally Posted by Montaver

Where are you test driving the car? If your just flooring it on highway entry ramps it won't feel 'woah scary' quick if you are used to fast cars. It should still feel quick though. Floor it on a twisty road above 4k RPM and you will realise how fast it actually is. The refinement and smooth torque band really masks the delivery, particularly in a wide open space.

Also as you mentioned, they are quite sensitive to ambient temps. In the North East winters my car feels quicker, no doubt about it. It certainly revs more keenly. I only run the car on 93.

The example you drove my also be a little tired, when were the spark plugs last changed on it?

I’ve taken turns at 80km/h by this big park by me, the car is so balanced, there was a C63 507 Edition behind me, at the end of the park path he commented on how well balanced my car was, he had to slow down a lot more to take the same corners

[Obioban]

As Montaver points out, the s65 is also a lot more sensitive to old spark plugs than the S54, since they're doing double duty as knock sensors. It also is more sensitive to environmental conditions, as it is much more actively/constantly pushing the timing till it senses the beginning of knock, and then slightly pulling it back (whereas the MSS54(HP) more follows a predefined (based on air temps, air density, etc) curve unless it senses knock, at which point it pulls it back pretty hard).

[EricSMG]

Okay - just drove an '08 sedan 6MT with 30k miles.

Boom!

Car feels great, power is crisp and top end rips hard to redline. Car is virtually mint inside and out, may pull the trigger on it. Below 5k rpm it feels roughly equivilent to a healthy 46M, maybe just a tad more power but within the noise. Up top, though, things get fun. This is what I recall about some of the "good" ones I've driven but boy are there a lot of shitty ones out there misrepresenting the model.

Interestingly, the two E9Xs I've connected with most have been '08 6MT sedans. Go figure. Based on my experience today I can see that bone stock, this car will satisfy me. What I don't want is to buy a car that needs mods to be fun. The 46M delivers out of the box and so that's been my "bar". A healthy, fresh E9XM is quite good as well.

[yeah_knee]

Tune my e92? Yes or no

[1MOREMOD]

Yes, remove cats first

[yeah_knee]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Yes, remove cats first

I heard you don't notice much difference in power with the tune.. it shows up more on the dyno than feeling the actual power that it gains

[1MOREMOD]

At best it's 25-35 hp or 10 percent so on border of feeling it, but will be quicker and response changes

[yeah_knee]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

At best it's 25-35 hp or 10 percent so on border of feeling it, but will be quicker and response changes

I don't think I'll be able to replicate the power I have in my f10 m5 lol if I could come somewhere close to it that would be great... but I know the handling is where the m3 is at

[CHE///MIST3]

Before I purchased mine....I test-drove 2 dcts with comp package and 2 6MT (1 with/1 wo comp package) and the 6 MT "felt" faster every time, even though it's actually not. The 6MT lets you wind up the motor to YOUR satisfaction before shifting and thus it feels faster. Maybe its the gearing too?
I know, ridiculous, but we know what we like...so we think. Haha

GM

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Okay - just drove an '08 sedan 6MT with 30k miles.

Boom!

Car feels great, power is crisp and top end rips hard to redline. Car is virtually mint inside and out, may pull the trigger on it. Below 5k rpm it feels roughly equivilent to a healthy 46M, maybe just a tad more power but within the noise. Up top, though, things get fun. This is what I recall about some of the "good" ones I've driven but boy are there a lot of shitty ones out there misrepresenting the model.

Interestingly, the two E9Xs I've connected with most have been '08 6MT sedans. Go figure. Based on my experience today I can see that bone stock, this car will satisfy me. What I don't want is to buy a car that needs mods to be fun. The 46M delivers out of the box and so that's been my "bar". A healthy, fresh E9XM is quite good as well.

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by CHE///MIST3

Before I purchased mine....I test-drove 2 dcts with comp package and 2 6MT (1 with/1 wo comp package) and the 6 MT "felt" faster every time, even though it's actually not. The 6MT lets you wind up the motor to YOUR satisfaction before shifting and thus it feels faster. Maybe its the gearing too?
I know, ridiculous, but we know what we like...so we think. Haha

GM

Yeah but the DCT lets you wind up the motor just the same, but it's got slightly shorter 1-3 ratios and overall closer ratios. This is partly why it's faster.

I did drive a fast DCT car once. And some slow ones. And some slow 6MT cars.

[seattle_m3]

I currently own an 05 e46 m3 with the SMG and i don't understand the hate with the transmission, I feel like most people who hate on it either heard from someone else that it sucks who heard it or read from another person that it does but its truly a great unique transmission that once you learn how to use it properly it is very rewarding and a great car for a daily driver which I have used as a daily for the past 3 months now. Being said that, im trading my car for an e92 m3 in a 6-speed which i'm very excited for. Ill let you know which one I end up liking more!

[Phildawil]

New to this glorious place, so not sure if this is poor form, but I actually wrote an article on exactly this conundrum a year and a half ago - hopefully puts anything I could say here in better (and admittedly a lot longer!) form:

https://www.fitzroymotor.co.uk/2018/...e-your-weapon/

[Eja144]

Originally Posted by Phildawil

New to this glorious place, so not sure if this is poor form, but I actually wrote an article on exactly this conundrum a year and a half ago - hopefully puts anything I could say here in better (and admittedly a lot longer!) form:

https://www.fitzroymotor.co.uk/2018/...e-your-weapon/

Very nice write up (even though you arrived at the wrong conclusion )

[pbonsalb]

You made M3forum dot net members happy, though that forum has been down for a week. They are the the biggest proponents of the E46. This forum is the place for E9x supporters.

[Phildawil]

Originally Posted by Eja144

Very nice write up (even though you arrived at the wrong conclusion )

Thank ye kindly :-) - and honestly, conclusion was a tough (and deeply subjective!) one to reach.

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by Phildawil

Thank ye kindly :-) - and honestly, conclusion was a tough (and deeply subjective!) one to reach.

Enjoyed the article. You had me there until the end - didn't realize it was a fantasy / science fiction piece until reading your conclusion.

[subeet]

Just saw this forum and thought I’d get some advice for you all

I currently have a new Lci G80 M3 6spd manual. I absolutely love this car and it’s a joy to drive, However I truly feel it’s easy to drive and lacks emotion and connection to the road, regardless of it having superpower numbers compared to previous M3s

I have been thinking about buying a second M3 to complement it, to get the feeling of something more raw. It’s been tough to decide between going with an e90/92 manual or even older to the iconic e46.

Which one is the better option to go with?

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by subeet

Just saw this forum and thought I’d get some advice for you all

I currently have a new Lci G80 M3 6spd manual. I absolutely love this car and it’s a joy to drive, However I truly feel it’s easy to drive and lacks emotion and connection to the road, regardless of it having superpower numbers compared to previous M3s

I have been thinking about buying a second M3 to complement it, to get the feeling of something more raw. It’s been tough to decide between going with an e90/92 manual or even older to the iconic e46.

Which one is the better option to go with?

E92 DCT

[87M3]

I've had both an e92 and now an e46 M3 with both being manual. The e92 is more of a GT and a bit more comfy/cushioned around town on normal roads. Heavier feeling but rips and sounds awesome up in the rpm range. But the e46 wins the day for me being lighter and with more immediate tactile inputs and responses. It's also a bit more up right with great sight lines and easier to drive. I'm sure you'll get lots of subjective info going both ways. They are both excellent.

[TboneS54]

Originally Posted by 87M3

I've had both an e92 and now an e46 M3 with both being manual. The e92 is more of a GT and a bit more comfy/cushioned around town on normal roads. Heavier feeling but rips and sounds awesome up in the rpm range. But the e46 wins the day for me being lighter and with more immediate tactile inputs and responses. It's also a bit more up right with great sight lines and easier to drive. I'm sure you'll get lots of subjective info going both ways. They are both excellent.

Well put, I agree. I probably don't have an apples to apples situation though as my e46 is heavily modified and my e90 is pretty stock, but the e46 is just more fun.

[Lucky1]

I’m a big fan of going for extreme opposites if you are adding the 2nd car to a fleet, especially if its meant for fun solo driving. If you don’t need rear seats Z4M, E46 then E92 would be my choices just because they’re that different. If you need the room and comfort but just want something more raw than what you have E9x M3 all the way. Maybe consider a convertible to shake things up even more.