Brade Pad Review Chat

[kolosy]

Adding to the list. Winmax R5, in the AP9660 shape front, stock rear. A little hard to disentangle from other changes I’ve been making to my brake setup, but this is my favorite pad so far. Very linear pedal feel, no fade. Wear was comparable to the other pads I’ve been using (so far every Carbotech compound). Also at ~260 for the fronts, they’re quite a bit cheaper than other options.

[former 240 s14]

Originally Posted by kolosy

Adding to the list. Winmax R5, in the AP9660 shape front, stock rear. A little hard to disentangle from other changes I’ve been making to my brake setup, but this is my favorite pad so far. Very linear pedal feel, no fade. Wear was comparable to the other pads I’ve been using (so far every Carbotech compound). Also at ~260 for the fronts, they’re quite a bit cheaper than other options.

Where do you buy these from? Never heard of this brand before so thanks for the info!

[kolosy]

Originally Posted by former 240 s14

Where do you buy these from? Never heard of this brand before so thanks for the info!

https://paragonbrakes.com/paragon-pb...18-brake-pads/

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by kolosy

https://paragonbrakes.com/paragon-pb...18-brake-pads/

Paragon rebrands them but the actual manufacturer is Winmax (Japanese company). I would not put much faith in their pad comparison tables. For example, they have PFC 97 listed as a street pad but it was developed as a pure race pad for IndyCars. I have no experience with their pads so I can’t comment on how their compounds compare to other pad manufacturers compounds.

[kolosy]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Paragon rebrands them but the actual manufacturer is Winmax (Japanese company). I would not put much faith in their pad comparison tables. For example, they have PFC 97 listed as a street pad but it was developed as a pure race pad for IndyCars. I have no experience with their pads so I can’t comment on how their compounds compare to other pad manufacturers compounds.

They list Winmax as the manufacturer on that page.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by kolosy

They list Winmax as the manufacturer on that page.

That’s a new addition. Paragon uses P and R for street and track, respectively, but Winmax uses W for all of their compounds.

I know these are more expensive pads but I’d give the following a try:
PFC 11
PFC 332/331
Cobalt XR1
Hawk DTC70/DTC60

I’m personally a PFC guy but, if PFC compounds aren’t available, I’ll then use Cobalt XR1 (mu 0.50 min to 0.70 max) or CT XP24/20 and next in line is Hawk DTC70 (mu of 0.55 min to 0.70 max). I know it’s difficult to recommend pad compounds because we all have different weighting factors for pad characteristics.

[kolosy]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

That’s a new addition. Paragon uses P and R for street and track, respectively, but Winmax uses W for all of their compounds.

I know these are more expensive pads but I’d give the following a try:
PFC 11
PFC 332/331
Cobalt XR1
Hawk DTC70/DTC60

I’m personally a PFC guy but, if PFC compounds aren’t available, I’ll then use Cobalt XR1 (mu 0.50 min to 0.70 max) or CT XP24/20 and next in line is Hawk DTC70 (mu of 0.55 min to 0.70 max). I know it’s difficult to recommend pad compounds because we all have different weighting factors for pad characteristics.

Good info. Just adding my info to the compilation thread too. At $260 for fronts, and with the performance characteristics I experienced on the R5s, I think they’re worth checking out.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by kolosy

Good info. Just adding my info to the compilation thread too. At $260 for fronts, and with the performance characteristics I experienced on the R5s, I think they’re worth checking out.

That’s great if you find a pad that’s reasonably priced and has the
characteristics you prefer. I wonder how the R7 performs compared to the R5? The mu vs. temp curve has the same mu-temp shape except its mu is raised up across the entire temp range. This generally means the pad has more thermal resistance and cold/hot bite.

[bipp]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

That’s great if you find a pad that’s reasonably priced and has the
characteristics you prefer. I wonder how the R7 performs compared to the R5? The mu vs. temp curve has the same mu-temp shape except its mu is raised up across the entire temp range. This generally means the pad has more thermal resistance and cold/hot bite.

R7 front and R5 rear might be interesting. The other one I wanted to try down the line was PFC 331/332 (CP9968 F, stock rear) with Z-rate pads for street, though not sure if you need to re-bed (like how Ferodo pads don't need to be rebedded when swapping street/track compounds).

[RalliartRsX]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

That’s great if you find a pad that’s reasonably priced and has the
characteristics you prefer. I wonder how the R7 performs compared to the R5? The mu vs. temp curve has the same mu-temp shape except its mu is raised up across the entire temp range. This generally means the pad has more thermal resistance and cold/hot bite.

What kind of times and with what tires were you running at SPM?

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by RalliartRsX

What kind of times and with what tires were you running at SPM?

Hoosier R7 285/30-18 with PFC 11/11 or PFC 05/05 of PFC 13/15, 3600 lbm with 4 gallons of gas, MCS 2WR 700/1100 lbf/in (divorced rear), 3.62 FD DCT. Consistently 1 min 21.2 sec to 1 min 20.6 sec.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by bipp

R7 front and R5 rear might be interesting. The other one I wanted to try down the line was PFC 331/332 (CP9968 F, stock rear) with Z-rate pads for street, though not sure if you need to re-bed (like how Ferodo pads don't need to be rebedded when swapping street/track compounds).

Not familiar with Winmax street or track pads but I’d at least do a partial rebedding on a non-used paddock area 1st thing in the morning and then let it cool down before the first session. I’ve been in a habit of bedding pads for so many decades that it doesn’t feel right to me to not bed-in a set of pads.

[kolosy]

Originally Posted by bipp

R7 front and R5 rear might be interesting. The other one I wanted to try down the line was PFC 331/332 (CP9968 F, stock rear) with Z-rate pads for street, though not sure if you need to re-bed (like how Ferodo pads don't need to be rebedded when swapping street/track compounds).

the one thing i'll say there is when I was talking to Paragon, they waved me off the R7 pads as too much for a car with street ABS. take that how you will, and I haven't tried the R7s (yet).

[amg6975]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

I’m personally a PFC guy but, if PFC compounds aren’t available.

I've always been a huge proponent of PFC but it just seems like pulling teeth to get anything any more.

Furthermore, I run stock M3 brakes with Girodisc rotors on a 3200lb 1 series shell with 245 width tires and even my last couple sets of 11s don't seem up to the task. They use to feel incredible but the last few sets just don't, I don't know what happened.

I'm going to try out some G-LOC pads next year, at the very least their customer service is second to none.

The Winmax pads Paragon sells are pretty impressive for the price, we have a Paragon BBK on our MINI and ran the R5s and yeah, they're track pads, I have no complaints.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by kolosy

the one thing i'll say there is when I was talking to Paragon, they waved me off the R7 pads as too much for a car with street ABS. take that how you will, and I haven't tried the R7s (yet).

I’ve used PFC 13 and 39 which have crazy high CoF and I was able to threshold brake without running into ABS issues. Tires definitely rotated on the wheels. The 13 and 39 have CoF > 0.70. Tire compound is more important when running crazy high CoF pads. The R7 CoF is much lower than the 13 and 39 compounds with a small temperature range which a CoF of 0.55. This pad should work fine and is a slightly more aggressive compound than the R5.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by amg6975

I've always been a huge proponent of PFC but it just seems like pulling teeth to get anything any more.

Furthermore, I run stock M3 brakes with Girodisc rotors on a 3200lb 1 series shell with 245 width tires and even my last couple sets of 12s don't seem up to the task. They use to feel incredible but the last few sets just don't, I don't know what happened.

I'm going to try out some G-LOC pads next year, at the very least their customer service is second to none.

The Winmax pads Paragon sells are pretty impressive for the price, we have a Paragon BBK on our MINI and ran the R5s and yeah, they're track pads, I have no complaints.

I have never used a PFC endurance pad. My issue with PFC is they don’t stock pad profiles and compounds like they used to. The new ownership completely changed what made PFC superior to other pad, rotor and caliper manufacturers. Stopping their track brake kits, except for P GT cars, which were by far the best brake kits on the market, especially their V2 and V3 race rotors I’ve used 97, 01, 03, 05, 07, 11, 13, 15 and 39. I can’t believe they’re discontinuing 11. 05 is my favorite but it was discontinued when 11 was released but I’ve heard from people that the 05 is back. Surprisingly, 01 is still a well performing pad given its age. There’s new 84 and 82 endurance pads designed to work well with stock ABS. Similarly, the 333, 332 and 331 are designed as more of a sprint compound but also designed to work well with stock ABS. Never got a chance to use the 333/332/331 compounds.

I’d recommend trying Cobalt XR1 and XR2 compounds. XR1s feel very similar to PFC pads and have improved rotor wear compared to Hawk DTC pads. Hawk DTC70 and DTC60 work well with stock ABS but are harsher on rotors compared to Cobalt and PFC. You’ll never have to worry about DTC70/60 pads from being there when you need them. PFC pads are mostly super friendly to rotors. With the z31/z31 brake kits you’ll get a minimum of 30 track days out of V2 rotors, and the z54/z45 brake kits will get you 40 days on a set of V3 rotors. Difference between V2 and V3 is how the hat is attached to the rotor. V2 uses a bolt on thin ring between the rotor tabs, and the V3 uses a retention spring ring (no fasteners, nuts and washers are used). PFC is bringing back V3 F 400 mm OD rotors and R 380 mm OD rotors for F87C/CS 2NH brake setup and f8x CCB brake setup.

G-LOC and Carbotech pads were once identical. Around 2012-2013, IIRC, the owners of CT wanted to take two different paths so CT splint into CT and G-LOC. G-LOC renumbered their pads which started out being the same as CT. The G16 and G18 are similar to XP20 and XP24. The G-LOC 14 is likely similar to the old CT XP16 or XP18. GS-1 and CT 1521 are their performance street pads.

[amg6975]

Sorry I meant 11 up top there. But yeah, shame what's going on with PFC, I have a hard time supporting businesses that can't bother to provide basic customer service.

For PFC I've used 08s, 12s and now 11s and they were all awesome up until these last couple sets... just don't seem to be what they used to be.

[RalliartRsX]

Notional

2010. M3. Caged. 275 V730. 3.8/2.5 camber. 3500 lbs with me in it

1:22.1 at summit main. 142 mph entry into 1
Stock braking system with dtc70 all around. Rotors are old

And 4 sessions in and the pads are. Done. No nanny's. Traction off. DSC well off.

So yeah. Putting some heat and these things are just about done. Didn't put temp paint onto the rotor or temp strip on the caliper as this was strictly a shakedown, but I'm 100% certain given the color, it's an overheated system

Take that for what it worth

[former 240 s14]

Originally Posted by amg6975

I've always been a huge proponent of PFC but it just seems like pulling teeth to get anything any more.

Furthermore, I run stock M3 brakes with Girodisc rotors on a 3200lb 1 series shell with 245 width tires and even my last couple sets of 11s don't seem up to the task. They use to feel incredible but the last few sets just don't, I don't know what happened.

I'm going to try out some G-LOC pads next year, at the very least their customer service is second to none.

The Winmax pads Paragon sells are pretty impressive for the price, we have a Paragon BBK on our MINI and ran the R5s and yeah, they're track pads, I have no complaints.

I ran a similar setup with my E90 M3 with stock calipers and girodisc. I ran DTC-60 and made sure to have proper cooling for the fronts and cut the backing plates off the rear......never had an issue after that, ever.

DTC-60 is less abbrassive than the 70's and have good (not strong) initial bite and are a progressive pad. Can't recommend the 60's enough!

[former 240 s14]

Originally Posted by RalliartRsX

Notional

2010. M3. Caged. 275 V730. 3.8/2.5 camber. 3500 lbs with me in it

1:22.1 at summit main. 142 mph entry into 1
Stock braking system with dtc70 all around. Rotors are old

And 4 sessions in and the pads are. Done. No nanny's. Traction off. DSC well off.

So yeah. Putting some heat and these things are just about done. Didn't put temp paint onto the rotor or temp strip on the caliper as this was strictly a shakedown, but I'm 100% certain given the color, it's an overheated system

Take that for what it worth

Are you running any cooling mods for the front brakes? I noticed on tight tracks that's a must on stock brakes. I would wager you get 2-3 more sessions of brake life if you do and less fade during your stints.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by former 240 s14

I ran a similar setup with my E90 M3 with stock calipers and girodisc. I ran DTC-60 and made sure to have proper cooling for the fronts and cut the backing plates off the rear......never had an issue after that, ever.

DTC-60 is less abbrassive than the 70's and have good (not strong) initial bite and are a progressive pad. Can't recommend the 60's enough!

The DTC70 has excellent initial bite and continuous bite throughout a braking event but I find them to be too aggressive on rotor wear. I’ve only tried F/R DTC70/DTC60. I don’t think Hawk offers front DTC60 on my front AP Racing CP5555, front PFC Z54 and front PFC Z31 calipers.

[former 240 s14]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

The DTC70 has excellent initial bite and continuous bite throughout a braking event but I find them to be too aggressive on rotor wear. I’ve only tried F/R DTC70/DTC60. I don’t think Hawk offers front DTC60 on my front AP Racing CP5555, front PFC Z54 and front PFC Z31 calipers.

100% agree with your assessment on the DTC-70. The aren't initial bite heavy versus the Ferrodo 3.12 and it's a progressive pad in my eyes.

In regards to DTC-60 I think I found them for you....Hawk doesn't make it easy.

https://www.hawkperformance.com/pads/Hb109d-980

I looked up your front kit and looked for the pad shape. Hawk sets up their part numbers pretty logically......

Hb109d-980 109 shape/profile, letter is the compound and the last 3 digits are the thickness. If this doesn't work if you contact them and give them the image of your pad shape and dimensions they can usually hunt it down.

Hope this helps, Rubin.