Brade Pad Review Chat

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by former 240 s14

No idea as of today. They (bimmerworld) didn't have any information on that and PFC has not responded to my inquiry yet. I will keep on them as the 11 compound sounded perfect for my driving style.

Thanks for the feedback and this has been a great convo so far, will keep this going!

11 will be missed if they’ve discontinued it. I know they released new 82 and 84 endurance compounds so maybe they’ll release new sprint compounds, other than 331, 332 and 333? There’s no other pad compounds similar to 11

[gmx]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

I wasn’t saying your braking is easy. I was just pointing out how a 2.0 mile track and a 3.29 mile track can both be demanding on brakes. However, I still believe your pad wear is extreme. I’d recommend trying a set of PFC pads front & rear and see if you’re still getting extreme wear. I’d also recommend measuring rotor and caliper temperatures to help with understanding what’s causing the extreme wear.

I’m with you on brake pedal feel with SRF. For the Motul 660, after rack track event, I’d recommend lightly bleed each caliper and the first 1-2’ of brake line to remove the fluid that is being subjected to the highest temperatures and severe environment. This keeps the brake fluid fresh and ready for abuse!

Try to threshold brake in all corners without over slowing the car. Do all the braking in a straight line for this test. Basically, minimize potential variables. So far though it sounds like the main variable may be braking system temperatures. Measuring rotor and caliper temperatures will provide very useful data. I’d say the current goal is to increase pad life by at least 3x from your current xp12 and xp20 pad lives.

Underrated point.

I'm also surprised how fast you go through DSUnos since they've been great for me. I don't really have a 1:1 comparison on the fronts but the rears so far, last as much as PFC08 which I used on stock calipers.

Also on the same page re SRF. I've been using it since 2017 and never been happy with the pedal, stock, BBK (slightly smaller front piston area) etc. About to switch over to RBF700 and it looks like 500mL "maintenance" bottle is nice and cheap to use to keep it fresh.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by gmx

Underrated point.

I'm also surprised how fast you go through DSUnos since they've been great for me. I don't really have a 1:1 comparison on the fronts but the rears so far, last as much as PFC08 which I used on stock calipers.

Also on the same page re SRF. I've been using it since 2017 and never been happy with the pedal, stock, BBK (slightly smaller front piston area) etc. About to switch over to RBF700 and it looks like 500mL "maintenance" bottle is nice and cheap to use to keep it fresh.

I’ve never used DSUnos. Ferodo’s are very popular but I’m not a fan. Since around 2008-2009, I’ve primarily used PFC and, if I can’t get the compounds I prefer, I’ll use Carbotech XP20 or Cobalt XR1. I’m not a huge fan of endurance compounds so I’ve never tried PFC 08 and 12.

I’ve never tried Motul brake fluids. Out of all of the brands I’ve tried, I’ve settled on PFC and AP Racing brake fluids for the past 15 years.

[gmx]

Reply was to the other dude. Makes me think he has caliper drag. Don't think it'd be MDM/DSC either accelerated rear wear either.

[former 240 s14]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

IÂ’ve never used DSUnos. FerodoÂ’s are very popular but IÂ’m not a fan. Since around 2008-2009, IÂ’ve primarily used PFC and, if I canÂ’t get the compounds I prefer, IÂ’ll use Carbotech XP20 or Cobalt XR1. IÂ’m not a huge fan of endurance compounds so IÂ’ve never tried PFC 08 and 12.

IÂ’ve never tried Motul brake fluids. Out of all of the brands IÂ’ve tried, IÂ’ve settled on PFC and AP Racing brake fluids for the past 15 years.

If you haven't tried Hawks brake fluid I think you will be pleasantly surprised. Great pedal feel and super inexpensive. I've used the Hawk 600 but my new coupe has Castrol SRF in it, been happy with it but once I find the perfect pads that may change as the biggest priority is pad feel.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by former 240 s14

If you haven't tried Hawks brake fluid I think you will be pleasantly surprised. Great pedal feel and super inexpensive. I've used the Hawk 600 but my new coupe has Castrol SRF in it, been happy with it but once I find the perfect pads that may change as the biggest priority is pad feel.

I’ve tried so many different brake fluids over the past 35+ years I can’t recall all of them. The PFC 665 (used in my cars with PFC brake kits) and the AP Racing R4/R3 (used in my cars with AP Racing brake kits). I’ve had zero on-track issues such as fade, soft pedal, pedal feel, etc.

I’ve spent years trying different brake compounds and when I first tried PFC compounds I was amazed by their performance compared to other brands. Then playing around with all of the PFC compounds was great. I’m 100% PFC except if I can’t find the compounds I’m looking for. Like I’ve previously stated, Carbotech and Cobalt are my backup pads. Give different PFC compounds a try. I’m certain you’ll find compounds that will impress you.

[kolosy]

Originally Posted by gmx

Reply was to the other dude. Makes me think he has caliper drag. Don't think it'd be MDM/DSC either accelerated rear wear either.

caliper drag? say more pls -- would love it to be some mechanical issue i can solve, not a fan of buying new brake pads every other track day.

[gmx]

For sliding calipers, check the sliding pins and boots. If lube was used (even though manual says not to use), check what type. If the lube was only for metal to metal brake components, it can cause the rubber to swell and resist the pins a bit.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by gmx

Underrated point.

I'm also surprised how fast you go through DSUnos since they've been great for me. I don't really have a 1:1 comparison on the fronts but the rears so far, last as much as PFC08 which I used on stock calipers.

Also on the same page re SRF. I've been using it since 2017 and never been happy with the pedal, stock, BBK (slightly smaller front piston area) etc. About to switch over to RBF700 and it looks like 500mL "maintenance" bottle is nice and cheap to use to keep it fresh.

Over-slowing the car is a common problem with inexperienced and experienced drivers and, as you correctly stated, it is often overlooked. With modern race pads, their fade resistance is so high you can get away with over-slowing the car. When I started in the mid-late 1980s track pads weren’t available for almost any car on the road so you were stuck with street pads, not true high performance street pads either. I was fine with it considering my CRX Si had 106 hp! Street pads combined with 106 hp quickly taught you to brake as little as possible and maximize your speed through a corner. Having started out this way, it made it easier when getting into an e36 M3, NA1 NSX, AP1/AP2 s2000s, e46 M3, e92 M3, and a f82 because I had the fundamentals down. I couldn’t image starting out today with a > 500 hp g82 and great brakes (compared to a CRX with a 10” diameter rotor!). I refuse to instruct because complete novices show up in their gt3rs and their day one goal is to go after the lap record or be faster than anyone else in their novice run group. No thanks, free track time isn’t worth it.

It’s impossible to teach the fundamentals to students in absurdly fast cars. Not many wants to learn “slow is fast” anymore when they have “fast is fast”. I wish there was an easy way to reduce peak power to 0.20-0.25x peak. People would learn things faster, probably develop car control skills, threshold braking, etc. and would actually advance faster. Not a fan of groups that assign run groups based on tap times. Worse possible thing because it incentivizes lap times, not mastering driving skills. Sorry about that… started with over-slowing and I got out of control

[former 240 s14]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

It’s impossible to teach the fundamentals to students in absurdly fast cars. Not many wants to learn “slow is fast” anymore when they have “fast is fast”. I wish there was an easy way to reduce peak power to 0.20-0.25x peak. People would learn things faster, probably develop car control skills, threshold braking, etc. and would actually advance faster. Not a fan of groups that assign run groups based on tap times. Worse possible thing because it incentivizes lap times, not mastering driving skills. Sorry about that… started with over-slowing and I got out of control

Couldn't agree more. I do instruct and am going to make it a post retirement career for me in the future. I was instructing with Nasa Mid-America a couple years ago when a very nice guy came in with a brand new 911 GT3 RS. I walked over and started a conversation with him. By the end of it I had convinced him that learning to drive a slow car fast will only make him faster in the 911. I told him to go buy a cheap Miata, make it safe, then go learn to drive it at the limit. The next event he came in with a new Cayman and asked me what I thought of his Miata, lol.

Driving a momentum car at the limit is so much fun. One of the race cars my main race team uses is an E34 5 series known as Big Red. Getting point byes in that car during races is one of the most rewarding aspects for me.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by former 240 s14

Couldn't agree more. I do instruct and am going to make it a post retirement career for me in the future. I was instructing with Nasa Mid-America a couple years ago when a very nice guy came in with a brand new 911 GT3 RS. I walked over and started a conversation with him. By the end of it I had convinced him that learning to drive a slow car fast will only make him faster in the 911. I told him to go buy a cheap Miata, make it safe, then go learn to drive it at the limit. The next event he came in with a new Cayman and asked me what I thought of his Miata, lol.

Driving a momentum car at the limit is so much fun. One of the race cars my main race team uses is an E34 5 series known as Big Red. Getting point byes in that car during races is one of the most rewarding aspects for me.

Don’t interpret my statement as not wanting to instruct or that I don’t enjoy it or I’m truly scared 100% of the time. After 10 spine surgeries from two car accidents (I was sitting stationary both times, first was head-on and second was rear-ended), I prefer to be in control but, if it’s someone with a modest powered car with a max power-to-weight ratio similar to an e46 M3) or a friend of a friend, etc., I’d still instruct. That’s awesome you were able to talk him into buying a “Miata” I would not have trouble instructing someone like him. Everyone would benefit from learning the fundamentals while driving a slower momentum car. Similar to F1, future F1 drivers start out in karting at crazy young ages. The kart is a momentum vehicle that prepares them for F4, F3, F2, and, if lucky and loaded with talent, F1. Miatia/Civic Si, BRZ, s2000, e46 M3, e92 M3, f82, C6 Vette Z06, etc. would be a similar progression preparing the driver for the next higher level of performance with solid fundamentals and to make proper decisions in higher stress situations. Unfortunately, now it’s starting with a f82, C7 Vette, GTR, Camaro ZL1 1LE, P GT cars, McLaren 720s, etc.

[kolosy]

Originally Posted by gmx

For sliding calipers, check the sliding pins and boots. If lube was used (even though manual says not to use), check what type. If the lube was only for metal to metal brake components, it can cause the rubber to swell and resist the pins a bit.

Nope, no pins. 6 pot bbk.

M3SQRD — which flavor of AP fluid are you using? Going to flush out the srf. Pedal feel sucks.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by kolosy

Nope, no pins. 6 pot bbk.

M3SQRD — which flavor of AP fluid are you using? Going to flush out the srf. Pedal feel sucks.

Yeah, I’m not a fan of SRF either.

I use the AP Racing Radi-CAL R4 CP6005 Racing Brake Fluid. It has the highest dry boiling point (644 F) of any currently available brake fluid. Its wet boiling point is 383 F.

PFC 665 is also a great brake fluid. Dry and wet boiling points are 617 F and 383 F, respectively.

[gmx]

You have 6pots on the rear?

[kolosy]

Originally Posted by gmx

You have 6pots on the rear?

no, but those aren't wearing nearly as much. at this rate i'll get a season out of the rears.

[amg6975]

Originally Posted by kolosy

no, but those aren't wearing nearly as much. at this rate i'll get a season out of the rears.

So strange. You're definitely running DSC fully off?

[kolosy]

Originally Posted by amg6975

So strange. You're definitely running DSC fully off?

yep.

[former 240 s14]

Great news for Hawk Pad enthusiasts. I found they do make track and street options:

Track Option
DTC 60 pads
Hb109g.980 109 shape/profile letter is the compound and the last 3 digists are the thicknes
Street options
Hb109z.710 front performance ceramic, the hp5.0 code is B
Hb718b.654 for rear

[eegstwozero]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

What is PFC 11 being replaced with? There’s no other PFC compound that’s close to 11. 11 was developed from 01 and 05. 13 was also derived from the 01 and 07 but with considerably more torque and temperature resistance (highest CoF in the mid temperature range) but it isn’t progressive like the 11. 01 is still a good pad given its age. I’d recommend trying 13 front and 05 or 07 (if you can find it) rear. 331 front and 15 rear is better than front 331 and rear 13 unless you want more rear brake bias. Note: the rear 7768 can be made from a 7767 - 7768 has a larger inner radius so all you need to convert a 7767 is to increase its inner radius. 7767 is used by Radicals so other compounds might be available than the 7768.

What is the process for modifying the 7767 to a 7768? If you DIY, can be done with a dremel or something like that?

[UPSROD]

1 1/2 months and no moderator has bothered to fix the title?

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by eegstwozero

What is the process for modifying the 7767 to a 7768? If you DIY, can be done with a dremel or something like that?

The brake pad manufacturer should be able to easily modify a 7767 on a belt sander. To DIY, you’d need 1:1 images of the 7767 and 7768 (or a used 7768 pad) so you can draw the 7768 inner radius onto the 7767 pad. Then remove material with a belt sander following the marked radius.

[eegstwozero]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

The brake pad manufacturer should be able to easily modify a 7767 on a belt sander. To DIY, you’d need 1:1 images of the 7767 and 7768 (or a used 7768 pad) so you can draw the 7768 inner radius onto the 7767 pad. Then remove material with a belt sander following the marked radius.

Thanks - I have a spare 7768 pad. Going to try to grind the 7767 down myself!