Another Cracked S65 - Main Bearing Failure

[RocketyMan]

Originally Posted by ab987

Grabbed some decent pictures of the BEv2 rod bearings, man photographing these is tough. Not 100% sure on the order, but trying to match them to the picture I posted before. Note that 1-4 are the passenger bank and 5-8 are the driver bank, front to back (the original bearing picture was front to back, so 1, 5, 2, 6, etc):

#1 spun due to oil starvation from the melted main, pictures above.
#2:
Attachment 3471425
#3:
Attachment 3471419
Attachment 3471420
#4:
Attachment 3471416
#5:
Attachment 3471423
Attachment 3471424
#6:
Attachment 3471418
#7:
Attachment 3471421
Attachment 3471422
#8:
Attachment 3471417

There's some pretty alarming wear on #3 and #7, remember this was 11-12k miles. Seems like the babbit layer took a beating and did its job on the others. None of the "good" bearings were wearing past the second (lead?) layer and seemed to have a fair bit of babbit (silver oxide?) left. Note that they have been dinged up since removal so ignore scratches.

I did measure each clearance with plastigauge, and they were all within 0.0013 and 0.0015 inches which seemed low, but the website mentioned it's more than likely fine. I'm sure with dial/bore gauges and matching clearances a bit better you could achieve better results, but there is certainly wear happening. Can't say for sure how much of it was the metal going through the oil.

Great pictures. Thank you for sharing and also adding the details that this only lasted a little over 10k miles.

I agree. From the looks of it, the bearings show oil starvation. The 0.0013" to 0.0015" clearance is a bit on the tight side with a journal of 2.0" but seems like a rather sudden failure. There also seems to be some debris embedded in the bearings, too.


What are your next steps/plans? I think you can easily rebuild with a good-used block&bedplate.

[amrazM]

Originally Posted by RocketyMan

What are your next steps/plans? I think you can easily rebuild with a good-used block&bedplate.

So lets talk about this,

1. Ideally the best option is a used bare block and bedplate which im seeing floating around ebay for $2-3. He would also need a new crank, worse case he could always pick up a block with scoring and get it machined which would take time.
2. Used motor which is hit or miss, used motors on ebay are around $5-8k depending on the mileage.

If it were me and i had the time and space I would consider a scored block assuming you can find a shop to overbore then which you would have two options the oem 92.20" piston which is expensive or the mahle 92.5 pistons.

even if the crank is ok I would consider sending it to lang to be refurbished and polished.

We should start compiling these resources. If I had the space I would consider building these engines.

[ab987]

Originally Posted by RocketyMan

Great pictures. Thank you for sharing and also adding the details that this only lasted a little over 10k miles.

I agree. From the looks of it, the bearings show oil starvation. The 0.0013" to 0.0015" clearance is a bit on the tight side with a journal of 2.0" but seems like a rather sudden failure. There also seems to be some debris embedded in the bearings, too.


What are your next steps/plans? I think you can easily rebuild with a good-used block&bedplate.

Interesting find. Definitely strange that they were so consistently tight considering BE targets something much higher (0.0025?). Goes to show that even with the latest BE has to offer, blindly throwing them on journals is a mistake. Makes me wonder if the BE v2s are actually a bit tighter than the previous?

Have a fire damaged 2011 core on the way to rebuild. Seller is warrantying the block, crank, cams and heads which is good enough for me. Can't find any machine shops with proper Alusil tooling or experience so I'm trying to figure out how much Alusil RA matters in the end. Porsche 944 guys have had luck at least making the bores look good after honing with the paste, but without measuring RA it seems like it may do more damage than good.

Once the "new" engine gets here, I'll update the thread.

[RocketyMan]

Originally Posted by ab987

Interesting find. Definitely strange that they were so consistently tight considering BE targets something much higher (0.0025?). Goes to show that even with the latest BE has to offer, blindly throwing them on journals is a mistake. Makes me wonder if the BE v2s are actually a bit tighter than the previous?

Have a fire damaged 2011 core on the way to rebuild. Seller is warrantying the block, crank, cams and heads which is good enough for me. Can't find any machine shops with proper Alusil tooling or experience so I'm trying to figure out how much Alusil RA matters in the end. Porsche 944 guys have had luck at least making the bores look good after honing with the paste, but without measuring RA it seems like it may do more damage than good.

Once the "new" engine gets here, I'll update the thread.

I def agree that the target clearance should be 0.0025" there abouts. And yeah, great point bout not just blindly putting in RB.

Originally Posted by amrazM

So lets talk about this,

1. Ideally the best option is a used bare block and bedplate which im seeing floating around ebay for $2-3. He would also need a new crank, worse case he could always pick up a block with scoring and get it machined which would take time.
2. Used motor which is hit or miss, used motors on ebay are around $5-8k depending on the mileage.

If it were me and i had the time and space I would consider a scored block assuming you can find a shop to overbore then which you would have two options the oem 92.20" piston which is expensive or the mahle 92.5 pistons.

even if the crank is ok I would consider sending it to lang to be refurbished and polished.

We should start compiling these resources. If I had the space I would consider building these engines.

Maybe the OP can get some pictures of the crank journals next. The #5 RB journal looks like nothing can catch on a fingernail and a good polish will easily clean it up. Probably hinges on main #1 journal. Again, if nothing catches the fingernail, it could prob get a good polish.

There is one block&bedplate on ebay right now that all cyl bores look good, no spun mains, and no cracks. I would wager this is a good block to work with after a very thorough cleaning. It's listed for $2500 OBO with free shipping.

[ab987]

Originally Posted by RocketyMan

I def agree that the target clearance should be 0.0025" there abouts. And yeah, great point bout not just blindly putting in RB.




Maybe the OP can get some pictures of the crank journals next. The #5 RB journal looks like nothing can catch on a fingernail and a good polish will easily clean it up. Probably hinges on main #1 journal. Again, if nothing catches the fingernail, it could prob get a good polish.

There is one block&bedplate on ebay right now that all cyl bores look good, no spun mains, and no cracks. I would wager this is a good block to work with after a very thorough cleaning. It's listed for $2500 OBO with free shipping.

I can snap some pictures of the journals tonight. The rod journals were all pretty good - no visible wear on any of them, and #1 that spun has minimal material transferred - definitely looks polishable. #1 main journal has tons of copper transferred so if it would clean up with a polish I'd still want to get it checked for micro cracks. I have it sealed in a container coated in a bit of oil, so I'd wager it can make its way back into service with some effort.

I got the fire damaged complete engine (sans plastic bits that burned) for under $4000, so I think that'll work out much better than buying a block at this point as long as the engine hasn't seen anything terrible.

[Redd]

So what's the verdict here for laymen like me? BEs are too tight?

[spammysammich]

Please tell me pastigauge was not used to measure the clearances.

[ab987]

Originally Posted by Redd

So what's the verdict here for laymen like me? BEs are too tight?

Without taking more accurate measurements I can't say this with confidence. I wouldn't trust my plastigauge measurements over a company with as much research as BE. My main takeaway is that even with BE bearings, the approach many individuals and shops seem to take of hotswap-without-taking-measurements is not optimal.

If I end up buying a bore gauge/micrometer as part of the rebuild (which I likely will) I'll take measurements of the old crank and torqued rods. Maybe that'll give us some more hints.

Regardless, as mentioned, there's definitely oil starvation on some journals and not others.

[spammysammich]

Well said. I also have to wonder how under reported main problems are. Over the years these cars seem to be very popular to hit and quit once maintenance costs become prohibitive and could rod bearing failures be more closely tied to main failures than we suspect? What percentage of spun bearing cases were thoroughly root caused?

[ab987]

Originally Posted by spammysammich

Well said. I also have to wonder how under reported main problems are. Over the years these cars seem to be very popular to hit and quit once maintenance costs become prohibitive and could rod bearing failures be more closely tied to main failures than we suspect? What percentage of spun bearing cases were thoroughly root caused?

Great point. Of course rod bearings are a problem on their own, but looking through the latest failure thread I do see quite a few #1 rod bearing failures and I wouldn't be surprised if a double digit percentage of them were due to #1 main. Wish more posted pictures of the other bearings too. It's also terrifying that of the reported failures on that thread, ~20% of the *total* failures are mains. I wish I knew, I would've probably gone the extra steps back when I did rods.

Maybe I've just gotten really unlucky, but I, for one, won't be owning another S65 that I didn't measure personally after this experience. And who's to say that would last any longer than the original? Such a shame.

[charliev68]

Although your RBs look pretty rough for 10k miles, I will venture to say that your #1 Main was the killer. Wondering if the BE RBs accelerated the demise of the Main?
Now that you know what to do, changing the Mains and RBs on your replacement engine should get you another carefree 100k plus hard miles!

[ab987]

Originally Posted by charliev68

Although your RBs look pretty rough for 10k miles, I will venture to say that your #1 Main was the killer. Wondering if the BE RBs accelerated the demise of the Main?
Now that you know what to do, changing the Mains and RBs on your replacement engine should get you another carefree 100k plus hard miles!

While I agree it probably contributed, #3 and #6 are fed from the same main bearing and the pictures speak for themselves. It looks like there was a clearance issue for sure on #3. I wouldn't be surprised if it would've spun after 40k miles. Definitely scary. Can't wait to get some measurements.

[ab987]

Got some pictures of the journals tonight. Apologies in advance for the hair on the 4/8 journal and the meh pictures in general. These things are hard to photograph.

#1 Main:

#2 Main:

#3 Main:

#4 Main:

#5 Main:


#1/5 Rod:

#2/6 Rod:

#3/7 Rod:

#4/8 Rod:


#1 rod bearing transferred a thin layer of copper to journal #1. You can also see how the chamfer on #1 got worn down by what I can only assume was the rod itself. Not sure what implications that may have, but I probably wouldn't feel too comfortable using this crank without some polishing, pen dye and expert consultation. Not a problem though, as my new engine's should be good to go

[RocketyMan]

Yeah I think I agree that main #1 was the contributor to this failure. It is def the worst looking as well as the heat got to it the most. It seems not that much heat got to rod journal #5 because there isn't as much bluing in comparison to the surrounding journal as main #1 has.

[ab987]

Sat down and priced out everything tonight. Engine only, it's looking like it'll shape up to be ~$8k in parts and machine work plus the cost of the engine itself. With all of the incidentals and cooler upgrades/replacements, we're probably not going to be very far below $16k. Man this car owes me a long, happy life...

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by spammysammich

Well said. I also have to wonder how under reported main problems are. Over the years these cars seem to be very popular to hit and quit once maintenance costs become prohibitive and could rod bearing failures be more closely tied to main failures than we suspect? What percentage of spun bearing cases were thoroughly root caused?

Way, way back in the early days of the E9x M3, I recall discussions related to main bearings as being the center of engine issues. This was long before rod bearings became target #1 with any mention of an S65. There was guessing that bedplate deflection could be a culprit, etc. I wish I could find the threads/posts now, but I seem to recall a good bit might have been in the E39 section of the M5board at the time (owned an E39 M5 for 15 years, and the M5board had numerous rod bearing discussions for the S62 back then). This was ~2009 or so as I recall. Anyway, I know that it was my number one concern about buying an E90 M3 for a couple of years early on. Unless I'm dreaming here, I recall some running change in the main bearing p/n at some point early on also, but I don't know how to confirm that thought/feeling here in 2024. Of course not too long after I finally bought my 2011.5 E90 M3, the whole rod bearing issue exploded into the forefront...lol. I recently sold the M3 after 12 years and 42k trouble free miles though, so I'm glad I bought it. It was a super fun car (6MT slicktop) as you all know.

[amrazM]

Do you have the capabilities to put the motor together yourself? if you do why not talk to partee racing about getting a used block and boring it 92.5, then get the crankshaft you have refinished. or why not discuss with them the possibilty of building a 4.2? whats your budget like to fix this thing? Can you elaborate on the warranty estimates in that spreadsheet? also, if you have the space why not buy a whole car from auction for the motor then part it out to get some of your funds back.

[ab987]

Originally Posted by amrazM

Do you have the capabilities to put the motor together yourself? if you do why not talk to partee racing about getting a used block and boring it 92.5, then get the crankshaft you have refinished. or why not discuss with them the possibilty of building a 4.2? whats your budget like to fix this thing? Can you elaborate on the warranty estimates in that spreadsheet? also, if you have the space why not buy a whole car from auction for the motor then part it out to get some of your funds back.

I have no problem with anything apart from the silicon lapping. Will try to find a machine shop nearby with a profilometer to check my work.

I'd love to talk to Partee but they are clear across the country so it would probably double the cost all said and done. I budgeted ~$10k for the whole ordeal back when it seemed like I had a usable block... I also do not have the space for another car, so the used engine on the way is the path forwards.

We'll make the best of it. Contemplating doing some Schricks if I end up nailing the Alusil work.

[deansbimmer]

The most economical and likely to succeed route is to source a good used engine from a wreck and refurbish it with new bearings and seals.

There is much risk to be saddled with if you attempt to DIY an engine from parts. It might work for a while but they don't usually last. Especially if introducing rework of the cylinders for new rings. Beyond the surface conditioning, bore shape is critical on these engines and their roundess and taper is usually out of spec on blocks with any decent amount of miles. For this reason we don't recommend DIY'ers buying used bare S65 blocks, unless you're shipping it out for rework by a proper shop.

If sourcing and building is your desired route and you want to do all of this only once, your best bet is to bite the bullet and send it to one of the few shops in the US that are well versed in these blocks.

[ab987]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

The most economical and likely to succeed route is to source a good used engine from a wreck and refurbish it with new bearings and seals.

There is much risk to be saddled with if you attempt to DIY an engine from parts. It might work for a while but they don't usually last. Especially if introducing rework of the cylinders for new rings. Beyond the surface conditioning, bore shape is critical on these engines and their roundess and taper is usually out of spec on blocks with any decent amount of miles. For this reason we don't recommend DIY'ers buying used bare S65 blocks, unless you're shipping it out for rework by a proper shop.

If sourcing and building is your desired route and you want to do all of this only once, your best bet is to bite the bullet and send it to one of the few shops in the US that are well versed in these blocks.

I would absolutely like to get the cylinders reconditioned professionally on my good short engine, but am not aware of anybody nearby that can do it. No intentions on my end to buy a bare block.

Do you happen to know anybody fairly close to the PNW that is experienced with these blocks? Don't mind making a road trip out of it or biting the bullet on shipping if it's somebody you really trust. Thanks Dean

[charliev68]

https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...rs-please.html
Porsche guys have been dealing with Alusil for the longest time. They seem to know what’s up.

[ab987]

Originally Posted by charliev68

https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...rs-please.html
Porsche guys have been dealing with Alusil for the longest time. They seem to know what’s up.

The problem is there seems to be so much conflicting information. For Alusil in general, some claim that the finish is too smooth after long use and new rings won't seal without re-etching. Others claim it's not a problem and you can throw new rings in and drive away. Dean has some very valid points about cylinder geometry too. Though that I can at least measure.

I don't want to gamble $10k on it unless I have no reasonable choice.