Official Harrop TVS1740 Supercharger Thread

[drwankel]

Originally Posted by CamasM3e93

What are you experiencing that you attribute to heat soak?

When the unit was on my e93 I had stock radiator, stock oil cooler, stock thermostat, usual Harrop intercooler and supporting equipment. I once stopped in the middle of a long drive, 400 hard miles into a fall day. After idling for 30 seconds on a flat road, I pulled a digitally measured 4.0s 0-60. Never saw once heat soak on that setup, all road driving, some of it in ambient temps as high as 103F.

On my e90 now I have the CSF radiator but stock everything else. IATs are reliably 30F above ambient, maybe creeping to 40F above ambient on the very hottest days. The unit pulls just as hard on a long drive as it does just after reaching warm up. On track this summer, I had one end of day session on a hot day with heat soak and significantly reduced power. Since that episode, I park between sessions with the hood up and the intercooler pump running for 15-20 minutes. When I start the car up for the next session, engine/oil temp is down to ~120F and I'm good for the whole session and then some.

Would say that if you are reliably seeing loss of power into a drive, would wonder if there is another cause or something is wrong in your coolant system overall - like maybe a thermostat that isn't opening early enough. Are you monitoring IATs and coolant temps?

I think the big scenario you are missing here is city driving and stop and go traffic in the summer. There's a noticeable power drop off once things get hot enough in those situations. The electric fan just cant move enough air through the engine bay running at full speed.

Doing longer drives behaves better because you have consistent air moving through the engine bay, and it stops things from getting hot to the point they don't want to cool back down.

Anecdotal, but max power (as confirmed by the butt dyno) is when oil temps are a needles width below the middle line. Once it gets past the middle line, power starts to drop off. I can only imagine that once the engine bay gets hot enough, the intercooler water temp has got to be up there as well, which doesn't help.

Originally Posted by erics02wrx

There’s definitely a difference in power between driving the car after initial warm up and driving in traffic, around town, hot days, etc. The worst is driving the car 1-2 hrs after parking it hot, it never seems to get back to the same output regardless of ambient temps or duration.

I see a ~30 deg ambient/IAT delta during first drive and ~40 deg delta after. This seems normal but the perceived power difference between first drive and later drives is very noticeable and I can’t imagine that most of that is due to IAT differences.

100%

Originally Posted by DRLane

Heat soak with these kits is 100% a problem. No, making the upgraded cooler investments won’t improve it.

There’s a reasonably good article on the Harrop plenum’s IAT sensor location being a contributor to the issue as the sensor itself heatsoaks. Thus it’s difficult to solve.

Good options:
1. A spacer to lift the plenum and make room for heat shielding. And thereby heat shielding the sensor as well.
2. Much larger coolant tank as additional volume improves efficiency.
3. Larger 3rd party heat exchanger (probably works great with expanded tank)
4. Forced Induction Chiller or Interchiller systems to use AC compressor to supercool the intercoolers. Likely the best option for street applications.
5. Ice system (meh)…
6. Meth water but would need to be post the compression from the twin screw. Which makes it almost impossible. I’ve tried the meth water before as part of the intake at saw no improvement.

Other improvements, reduce heat under the hood. Vents, coating / shielding the headers, etc.

Interchiller, despite me not understanding how it doesnt negatively impact cabin A/C performance is interesting. There's a some photos of a harrop m3 install somewhere, and the intercooler lines were frosty. Would really love to see the gains from that setup.

Replacing the heat exhanger would be difficult. I just dont understand how we could get a larger one in there. A bigger coolant tank for the intercooler seems doable, and in my mind, is an obvious weak point in the kit.

[erics02wrx]

https://fiinterchillers.com/bmw-e90-m3-interchiller/

[OmairK]

Originally Posted by erics02wrx

https://fiinterchillers.com/bmw-e90-m3-interchiller/

Interesting!

[DukeofAlexandria]

Like DrFerry said drwankel, adding E85 (or a blend) will help a little bit, but the killer chiller is the best, I just haven't done anything yet.

During my install, I posted extensively on buying the entire do88 kit and the install issues and gripes I had. For the most part the kit is on point, but some modifications will be needed to fit with the Harrop kit.

When I first installed I barely saw a smidge above 210...I'm now seeing it climb to slightly below the first white tick mark; basically half way between the 210 and first white tick mark after that.....which is something I've been meaning to look into and address. Might try the oil diverter but it's also been 95+ degree days with 100% humidity for the past month...so could just be horrible heat soak....

The killer chiller interests me, might take a look at that. I had mocked up and CAD'd individual throttle body meth/water injectors, but I don't have the machining tools to do some of the metal work that's needed and ultimately wasn't going to go too much further down that rabbit hole.

-Duke

[Bakerboy]

Originally Posted by DukeofAlexandria

Like DrFerry said drwankel, adding E85 (or a blend) will help a little bit, but the killer chiller is the best, I just haven't done anything yet.

During my install, I posted extensively on buying the entire do88 kit and the install issues and gripes I had. For the most part the kit is on point, but some modifications will be needed to fit with the Harrop kit.

When I first installed I barely saw a smidge above 210...I'm now seeing it climb to slightly below the first white tick mark; basically half way between the 210 and first white tick mark after that.....which is something I've been meaning to look into and address. Might try the oil diverter but it's also been 95+ degree days with 100% humidity for the past month...so could just be horrible heat soak....

The killer chiller interests me, might take a look at that. I had mocked up and CAD'd individual throttle body meth/water injectors, but I don't have the machining tools to do some of the metal work that's needed and ultimately wasn't going to go too much further down that rabbit hole.

-Duke

I had thought of water injection through the rotor pack.

I think if it’s just water it shouldn’t affect coating and should cool intake temps.

Even if you did run a little meth through the charger the coating isn’t necessary for it’s operation and health however I’m stil not keen on the idea

[BP709]

I’ve been thinking about this issue of heat soak for awhile as it’s definitely an issue especially here in blazing hot Houston. It’s not uncommon for me to come out to the car after work and have 110 degree iat immediately at startup. For reference my car has a do88 oil cooler, epic Motorsports oil diverter, and CSF radiator. Oil and coolant temps are totally under control and not a big issue with my setup. As others said iat is usually within 30-40 degrees of ambient at full operating temp. I dyno’d the car last year and it was well heat soaked from driving there in 95 degree ambient temp and still put down 467whp with nearly 130 degree iat. There is some info out there that general rule of thumb is for every 10 degrees iat it equates to 1% power gained or lost. I’m currently contemplating on doing some sort of “chiller” setup. I’ve known about killer chiller and fi interchillers for awhile but the main issue I see is space and cleanliness of install. Basically it’s like adding an additional evaporator core and expansion valve to the system. Tap the suction line between the expansion valve and compressor and the high side line between the condenser and expansion valve. Those get ran to a second expansion valve on or near the “chiller core”…with this comes additional plumbing of a/c and coolant lines. I’m currently trying to source another suction line and high side line out of a wrecked vehicle to modify as they are both around $300 each new. I likely won’t be using a kit from either of the above vendors either….more or less will be making my own kit using available OE parts but I don’t have a 100% solid plan yet as I just started looking into this a few weeks ago.

[Bakerboy]

Has anyone upgraded their heat exchanger to a larger unit?

Interchiller doesn’t interest as I track my car.

[erics02wrx]

For those of us that live in warmer climates, has anyone ran a 25:75 antifreeze mix (or 100% water + additive) in the intercooler system to see what effect it would have on IAT?

[Bakerboy]

Originally Posted by erics02wrx

For those of us that live in warmer climates, has anyone ran a 25:75 antifreeze mix (or 100% water + additive) in the intercooler system to see what effect it would have on IAT?

I run 70% water 30% coolant in uk on both supercharger cooling and engine cooling

Have done for a few years now

[6ab6ab]

Hello everyone,

I unfortunately I got into an accident a year ago , but I am almost done with fixing everything. Last thing left is some supercharger components that I don’t understand honestly so I am going to need your help to get some things clear. What seems damaged to me so far is the intercooler is bent and the main belt that goes around the pulleys , but what I confused about is that how many pulleys and belts that came in this kit ? And what is the size of the belt that our kits run so I can get something similar to run on my car . What about the supercharger oil it had a specific oil that came with it if I remember correctly.
So if you guys help with these questions so I can finally drive my car after more then a year waiting 😅
Thanks 🙏

[Bakerboy]

I’ve been running meth/water pre the blower for a little while now. Second pic shows the nozzle. I have a 14 litre tank and pump in the rear seat delete area. The pump turns on at same time as the secondary fuel it pump I run controlled via syvecs.

It seem to keep the temps ait right down as it cools the rotor pack whilst cooling the intake charge. I like to watch my p3 gauge and it really stops the massive heat hike and also brings it back down from a higher temp very quickly after coming off throttle.

Added a pic of me on track recently also..

Done probably 500miles or so, I recently have taken off the intake and checked the coating on the rotors and it’s fine so far. It will eventually remove it but it’s a non issue.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by Bakerboy

I’ve been running meth/water pre the blower for a little while now.

Keeps the temps right down as it cools the rotor pack whilst cooling the intake charge.

Added a pic of me on track recently also.

AIT is simply not an issue atall on track so far.

Done provebly 500miles or so, I have taken off the intake and checked the coating on the rotors and it’s fine so far. It will eventually remove it but it’s a non issue.

Please share IAT data relative to RPM (assuming you’re spraying volume based on boost), and the general weather for the track conditions.

[Bakerboy]

Originally Posted by DRLane

Please share IAT data relative to RPM (assuming you’re spraying volume based on boost), and the general weather for the track conditions.

Max ait temps seen 48c on track. This is flat out driving obviously not spirited road driving

Blue is rpm and white is air charge temp.

I was seeing close to 70c on last trackday without it, no logs though unfortunately, it was a much hotter day tho but it doesn’t make massive difference to overall ait.

The nozzle sprays at 4-5psi boost same as the secondary fuel pump.

Nozzle size is 640cc and is on or off, not progressive like some.

Edit just added another pic, this shows how frequently the water injection is coming on (red areas), road driving the injection doesn’t come on hardly at all of course.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by Bakerboy

Max ait temps seen 48c on track. This is flat out driving obviously not spirited road driving

Blue is rpm and white is air charge temp.

I was seeing close to 70c on last trackday without it, no logs though unfortunately, it was a much hotter day tho but it doesn’t make massive difference to overall ait.

The nozzle sprays at 4-5psi boost same as the secondary fuel pump.

Nozzle size is 640cc and is on or off, not progressive like some.

What was the days air temp?

[Bakerboy]

DRLane Low teens centigrade. So around 8-10c less than the previous track day I attended.

I should have done a run without the injection on but just didn’t think to.

It makes a huge difference, it was evident as soon as I start using it on the road let alone the track.

The rotor pack is coolish to the touch after thrashing it.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by Bakerboy

Low teens centigrade. So around 8-10c less than the previous day.

I should have done a run without the injection on but just didn’t think to.

It makes a huge difference, it was evident as soon as I start using it on the road let alone the track.

The rotor pack is coolish to the touch after thrashing it.

Yeah - Maybe it was making a small improvement, but that’s likely compounded by the low teens temps. Try this when it’s > 30° C and I have little faith this does anything.

Is this Syvecs ECU logger software? Looks cool. Did you upgrade the IAT sensor to what Gareth recommended (threaded Weber?)

Thanks for sharing man!

[Bakerboy]

Originally Posted by DRLane

Yeah - Maybe it was making a small improvement, but that’s likely compounded by the low teens temps. Try this when it’s > 30° C and I have little faith this does anything.

Is this Syvecs ECU logger software? Looks cool. Did you upgrade the IAT sensor to what Gareth recommended (threaded Weber?)

Thanks for sharing man!

Not sure what the threaded Weber is in all honesty.

The programme is s view, the display programme for the data logging feature of the syvecs.

To reclassify the difference with water on or off is polar opposites.

I will try and do a run with it on and off on same day.

It stops the heat climbing nearly as far and then recovers really fast as you decel

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by Bakerboy

Not sure what the threaded Weber is in all honesty.

The programme is s view, the display programme for the data logging feature of the syvecs.

To reclassify the difference with water on or off is polar opposites.

I will try and do a run with it on and off on same day.

It stops the heat climbing nearly as far and then recovers really fast as you decel

I tried this with varying nozzles, and boost levels and couldn’t get a material impact on track. When it’s < 20°C I generally wasn’t having issues anyway as the cool ambient air was a huge power improvement.

If you’ve found success then that is awesome! I’d be excited to explore it again in the future.

Here in Colorado USA, we’re high altitude and very dry heat. So most cooling efforts and or strategies are put to the test.

Keep us posted as you experiment.

[Bakerboy]

Originally Posted by DRLane

I tried this with varying nozzles, and boost levels and couldn’t get a material impact on track. When it’s < 20°C I generally wasn’t having issues anyway as the cool ambient air was a huge power improvement.

If you’ve found success then that is awesome! I’d be excited to explore it again in the future.

Here in Colorado USA, we’re high altitude and very dry heat. So most cooling efforts and or strategies are put to the test.

Keep us posted as you experiment.

It’s well documented that it works, however you need to have a issue with heat in the first place for it to be able to do anything and take heat out.

What platform were you doing it on? Was it a charger?

Doing it before blower should have a pretty drastic impact as the intake air doesn’t get scorched up to temp from the hot compressor blades, and once the meth is past the screws it aids in cooling the charge coolers then the actual charge itself.

Also worth noting: My charger is spinning faster than oem kit as running the larger main pulley, this in itself will create more heat.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by Bakerboy

It’s well documented that it works, however you need to have a issue with heat in the first place for it to be able to do anything and take heat out.

What platform were you doing it on? Was it a charger?

Doing it before blower should have a pretty drastic impact as the intake air doesn’t get scorched up to temp from the hot compressor blades, and once the meth is past the screws it aids in cooling the charge coolers then the actual charge itself.

Also worth noting: My charger is spinning faster than oem kit as running the larger main pulley, this in itself will create more heat.

I’m also on a Harrop running 9psi. We spoke offline about the Syvecs a while back when you got their stage 2 tune. My car is fairly built track machine.

You’re over-indexing success in very tame conditions. Again, I do not think this would do anything in hot ambient conditions.

[Bakerboy]

Originally Posted by DRLane

I’m also on a Harrop running 9psi. We spoke offline about the Syvecs a while back when you got their stage 2 tune. My car is fairly built track machine.

You’re over-indexing success in very tame conditions. Again, I do not think this would do anything in hot ambient conditions.

Yeah I remember, so your saying you have experience running the meth through the blower?

Time will tell how effective it is in summer, all I know is it rises a bit but caps the hike in temp unlike without, and as soon as you decel it quenches the heat that’s been added very quickly.

[Properstyle]

still waiting to see some 60-130 results from one of these on 85 running some worth wild boost.