My E90 M3 Dedicated Track build (with pix!)

[b4hand]

Gabe have you considered Meth Injection or something to help with temps. I know you don't hotlap the car but it would help either way.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by b4hand

Gabe have you considered Meth Injection or something to help with temps. I know you don't hotlap the car but it would help either way.

I did enquire about meth injection last year. But I was told it would not reduce my oil/coolant temps. I was surprised by that answer because I thought that’s why people do it, but accepted it and haven’t looked into it since.

If there is other information out there, I’m happy to hear it.

[SYT_Shadow]

Yeah, there are two different issues

1) IATs. Meth would help with this
2) Engine oil getting too hot. I don't see how meth would significantly help this. This likely needs an additional oil radiator somewhere, like in the trunk or something.

The car runs pretty well until the oil gets too hot. Sure it pulls some power due to IATs, but it still has a healthy amount of power until the oil gets too hot.
That said, the car is very fast for more laps than I expected, and even the cooldown laps are still pretty damn fast.

Also, there seems to be pretty much zero good results with meth on this platform

[b4hand]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

2) Engine oil getting too hot. I don't see how meth would significantly help this. This likely needs an additional oil radiator somewhere, like in the trunk or something.

The car runs pretty well until the oil gets too hot. Sure it pulls some power due to IATs, but it still has a healthy amount of power until the oil gets too hot.

Lower IAT's wouldn't lower cylinder temps or does the computer just throw more at the engine since it's below thresholds

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by b4hand

Lower IAT's wouldn't lower cylinder temps or does the computer just throw more at the engine since it's below thresholds

lower IAT would mean lower cylinder temps, which would allow the engine to make more power -or the same power as lap 1 in later laps- but the oil would overheat anyway

I don't think intake air temp has anything to do with oil temp, or at least they're not clearly correlated. We used to track a F80CS and now use F82 GTSs with water injection. The water injection lowers IAT substantially, but oil temps are pretty much the same between both cars.

Maybe to think about it another way: an engine is say 25% efficient at converting fuel into power. Dogbone's car has 200hp over a stock engine, meaning if a stock engine produces 420/0.25=1680hp in heat, his car produces 625/0.25=2500hp in heat.
1680 vs 2500hp, a delta of ~800hp in heat.
Those extra 800hp are being dissipated into a system not designed for that.
All the heat goes into the oil and water, and then you wind up with high temps.

You need more frontal surface area for more radiators, or put radiators somewhere else in the car to cope with the extra heat. Or just run fewer hot laps which the tires favor anyway

[Richbot]

You’d be better off spraying the coolers with water/methanol mixture than injecting it if you’re cooling limited. Cooler iat doesn’t mean lower cylinder temperatures in any meaningful way - the heat comes from the explosion which is one or two orders of magnitude hotter than the charge

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by dogbone

I did enquire about meth injection last year. But I was told it would not reduce my oil/coolant temps. I was surprised by that answer because I thought that’s why people do it, but accepted it and haven’t looked into it since.

If there is other information out there, I’m happy to hear it.

E85 has kept my car cool on track. back on 91oct in the same temps i would reach the the 2nd to last line on the temp gauge.

same for spirited canyon drives on 91oct i found my self, at the 2nd to last line.

and just shy under the middle line on track during a full session and in canyons.

although probably not a good place to look since our temp gauge on our dash supposedly reads multiple things?

[dogbone]

Appreciate the feedback everyone. I did a bit of internet searching. Here on the forum, many years ago, they were talking about water/meth injection. Several people were talking about how corrosive meth is. Would it be safe to spray water/meth on the outside of coolers? Would the overspray be hard on hoses or belts or connectors or whatever?

Is there a mix % of water/meth that goes below a danger level of corrosiveness?

So many weird things to worry about with meth injection it seems.

[Gmark958]

Methanol dissolves the oxide layer on aluminum and eats away at it that way, there really isn’t a “safe” level because even a small amount will eat away whatever it come into contact with. You could anodize the aluminum which would minimize the effect. If you wanted to spray then you’d be better off just using water for the radiator. Spraying the radiator also adds another thing to monitor so I personally wouldn’t do it. If you want a lower coolant temps then the best option is either a bigger fan, rad, or both.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by Gmark958

Methanol dissolves the oxide layer on aluminum and eats away at it that way, there really isn’t a “safe” level because even a small amount will eat away whatever it come into contact with. You could anodize the aluminum which would minimize the effect. If you wanted to spray then you’d be better off just using water for the radiator. Spraying the radiator also adds another thing to monitor so I personally wouldn’t do it. If you want a lower coolant temps then the best option is either a bigger fan, rad, or both.

Thanks. In the old thread I found, someone said it was hard on rubber seals too? Sheesh.

For a long time, I had a distilled water-only misting system that sprayed via 5 nozzles--two on the coolant radiator, two on the supercharger cooler and one on the DCT cooler. It basically gave me one more lap at full pace, which was nice given that I generally get 2 laps without the misting system. But, I rubbed through one of the water lines in late 2020 and haven't bothered fixing it. Also, to complicate things further, we cut up the fender and tucked the sides in to create a vent to relieve front wheel well pressure, so the OEM windshield washer reservoir we were using for the misting system had to be removed. So, to get the misting system working again would be a whole science project of finding a new home for the reservoir.

Spraying meth, given how corrosive it appears to be, either inside the engine or outside seems to be something that I may just have to stay away from. Too many unknowns, and I don't think anyone that is spraying it has longevity on the mind---only performance. I've tried to do things to the car that can last years, and had pretty good luck with that approach (until the car started completely unraveling in 2021......hahahaha....but c'mon, that was after 9 years and 250+ track days.)

[okusa]

Isn't methanol also highly flammable? I'd be paranoid about a leaky line.

[Gmark958]

Methanol is very flammable, but it doesn’t burn as hot as regular gasoline because it has less energy. It’s also invisible, which is fun. Running it inside the engine is fine because you can just turn the system off and flush everything with gas afterwards, same for the reservoir and the lines for it. There are also fuel lines made specifically for running alcohol because it’s very popular in the drag world because a fifty five gallon drum costs like $300 and prevents one from needing a radiator. As for location I’d keep it near the fuel cell because that would keep it in an isolated compartment away from the driver, then just have the lines follow the regular fuel lines. If longevity is your goal then I’d stay away from it unless you want to carry a couple extra gallons of fuel to clean the system out after every event. There’s also the fumes, which will irritate your sinuses and cause your eyes to tear. My dads Alcohol dragster would smoke out a 2,200 sqft shop with both bay doors open in a matter of seconds.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by Gmark958

Methanol is very flammable, but it doesn’t burn as hot as regular gasoline because it has less energy. It’s also invisible, which is fun. Running it inside the engine is fine because you can just turn the system off and flush everything with gas afterwards, same for the reservoir and the lines for it. There are also fuel lines made specifically for running alcohol because it’s very popular in the drag world because a fifty five gallon drum costs like $300 and prevents one from needing a radiator. As for location I’d keep it near the fuel cell because that would keep it in an isolated compartment away from the driver, then just have the lines follow the regular fuel lines. If longevity is your goal then I’d stay away from it unless you want to carry a couple extra gallons of fuel to clean the system out after every event. There’s also the fumes, which will irritate your sinuses and cause your eyes to tear. My dads Alcohol dragster would smoke out a 2,200 sqft shop with both bay doors open in a matter of seconds.

Man, this is sounding better and better! That's what I need----one more thing attacking my sinuses.....hahahaha Where is the sign up sheet for meth injection?

[Gmark958]

Why use meth when you can use Nitromethane and get even lower air temps? All the benefits of Meth plus it creates it’s own oxygen while it burns. That just means more fuel for more power. I see absolutely zero possible negative effects from this. Literally nothing can go wrong.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Gmark958

Why use meth when you can use Nitromethane and get even lower air temps? All the benefits of Meth plus it creates it’s own oxygen while it burns. That just means more fuel for more power. I see absolutely zero possible negative effects from this. Literally nothing can go wrong.

Ah nitromethane... brings back fond memories of my remote control car that was death on wheels

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Ah nitromethane... brings back fond memories of my remote control car that was death on wheels

literal ankle destroyers.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

literal ankle destroyers.

haha you guys lost me!

Ok, so is nitromethane different than uhhhh other methanes? I know literally zero about this topic.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by dogbone

haha you guys lost me!

Ok, so is nitromethane different than uhhhh other methanes? I know literally zero about this topic.

i still think you should try E85 first

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

i still think you should try E85 first

So----my main problems with E85 are logistical.

1. Most tracks don't sell it which means I need to acquire it before I go to the track. Often times my rig is far from me, so I would have to fly in and then go get enough fuel for whatever event I'm doing. Sometimes events are three days.....that's a lot of fuel---more than 70 gallons. Which brings me to my next problem--->

2. I would need to carry all the fuel I'm going to run. My trailer just isn't set up for that. I would need a bigger trailer........

3. My supercharger is VF. Can VF create an E85 tune for me? Don't know. I just submitted a tech form to them to see if it's possible for them to create 100oct or E85 tunes for the VF620 kit.

I don't really care that E85 burns 25-30% more fuel than 100 oct gas. But the logistics of always having to pre-purchase and carry fuel is not practical for me. I guess this is where me doing all my own race logistics/transport/prep/support starts to show its limitations. (hehe you should have seen me and SYT_Shadow's brother underneath my car doing an oil change in the VIR paddock at the end of the PCA event in anticipation of HyperFest!---do you know how strict they are at that track if you mess up their paddock? They have security guys going around in golf carts all day just looking for someone breaking the rules. We didn't spill a drop!)

PS. I FedExed my trailer keys to VIR and they moved my trailer to wherever they needed to move it. I had to ask them to go into the trailer and remove all the loose stuff piled in the front of the trailer so it wouldn't topple onto the hood or splitter. They were very nice about it and got it done cleanly. They even sent me a picture of its new resting spot. haha They were also very nice in saying that they weren't going to charge me for the month of storage since I had to pay for FedEx which in essence allows me to break even. I appreciated their gesture.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by dogbone

So----my main problems with E85 are logistical.

1. Most tracks don't sell it which means I need to acquire it before I go to the track. Often times my rig is far from me, so I would have to fly in and then go get enough fuel for whatever event I'm doing. Sometimes events are three days.....that's a lot of fuel---more than 70 gallons. Which brings me to my next problem--->

2. I would need to carry all the fuel I'm going to run. My trailer just isn't set up for that. I would need a bigger trailer........

3. My supercharger is VF. Can VF create an E85 tune for me? Don't know. I just submitted a tech for them to see if it's possible for them to create 100oct or E85 tunes for the VF620 kit.

I don't really care that E85 burns 25-30% more fuel than 100 oct gas. But the logistics of always having to pre-purchase and carry fuel is not practical for me. I guess this is where me doing all my own race logistics/transport/prep/support starts to show its limitations. (hehe you should have seen me and SYT_Shadow's brother underneath my car doing an oil change in the VIR paddock at the end of the PCA event in anticipation of HyperFest!---do you know how strict they are at that track if you mess up their paddock? They have security guys going around in golf carts all day just looking for someone breaking the rules. We didn't spill a drop!)

PS. I FedExed my trailer keys to VIR and they moved my trailer to wherever they needed to move it. I had to ask them to go into the trailer and remove all the loose stuff piled in the front of the trailer so it wouldn't topple onto the hood or splitter. They were very nice about it and got it done cleanly. They even sent me a picture of its new resting spot. haha They were also very nice in saying that they weren't going to charge me for the month of storage since I had to pay for FedEx which in essence allows me to break even. I appreciated their gesture.

Ha, that oil change was epic. We usually take our used oil to the track as they allow you to dispose of it without any issues. When I take it to an autozone etc I get dirty looks.

I couldn't see myself running E85, ever. What happens when you leave the car parked for weeks or months? Are you swapping injectors often to avoid them from dying? How do you get an E85 tune for your supercharger? More frequent oil changes to avoid oil contamination?

I doubt E85 would have any positive effects on the oil temperature issue. It might make more power, but then it would just overheat even faster.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Ha, that oil change was epic. We usually take our used oil to the track as they allow you to dispose of it without any issues. When I take it to an autozone etc I get dirty looks.

I couldn't see myself running E85, ever. What happens when you leave the car parked for weeks or months? Are you swapping injectors often to avoid them from dying? How do you get an E85 tune for your supercharger? More frequent oil changes to avoid oil contamination?

I doubt E85 would have any positive effects on the oil temperature issue. It might make more power, but then it would just overheat even faster.

Your brother made it his mission to get that oil change done! He was all over it! I really appreciated your guys' help on that one. He was under the car collecting oil; I was running it up to the drop-off depot. It was done in no time! The longest part was getting the oil to warm up and give me a level reading. Is it me? Or is that the DUMBEST damn thing ever?! It takes like 20+ minutes of letting the car sit there idling to get an oil level reading.......so dumb. I can't tell you how much 100 octane gas I've wasted letting the car sit there idling over the years while we wait for a level reading.

Yeah, I suspect that E85 is not in my future. But I would be interested in a 100 octane specific tune because I only run 100 octane.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by dogbone

Your brother made it his mission to get that oil change done! He was all over it! I really appreciated your guys' help on that one. He was under the car collecting oil; I was running it up to the drop-off depot. It was done in no time! The longest part was getting the oil to warm up and give me a level reading. Is it me? Or is that the DUMBEST damn thing ever?! It takes like 20+ minutes of letting the car sit there idling to get an oil level reading.......so dumb. I can't tell you how much 100 octane gas I've wasted letting the car sit there idling over the years while we wait for a level reading.

Yeah, I suspect that E85 is not in my future. But I would be interested in a 100 octane specific tune because I only run 100 octane.

If only you were on 240/241 software!!

No need to wait to get a reading. Put 9 bottles in and call it a day!