Tire Talk Megathread

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by derbo

What is considered operating temperature?
1 heat cycle as I understand it is cool > operating temperature > cool.
Based on that understanding:
1 heat cycle = 1 session track day, 1 session cool.
1 heat cycle = back to back 2 sessions in trackday.

Is that correct to think this way?

And

Originally Posted by tsk94

I would consider a heat cycle essentially on a per session basis. Where you bring the tire up to operating temp and it cools down (not necessarily down to ambient temp).
1 session = 1 heat cycle

The only time it wouldn't apply I suppose is when you go out for a session and almost immediately go back out for another.

derbo Operating temperature and a heat cycle are related, but not the same thing.

tsk94 defined one heat cycle perfectly above i.e. from the ambient condition bringing the tire up to the operating temperature range (zone) its tread compound(s) and other rubber components were designed to operate within - once - and then allowing the tire to thoroughly cool down to ambient temperature. So one on track session equals one heat cycle IF the tire is exercised hard enough to get it hot enough to "come-in" i.e. into its tread compound's peak grip temperature regime. Sorry for all the words.

A tire's rubber compound(s) - especially its tread - are designed (compounded) to perform at peak grip depending upon the environment it's being used in. Example: a winter tire is designed to be supple and provide grip well below freezing in ice and snow, but that same winter tire doesn't do well at a race track during hot laps because the rubber compound in the tread isn't designed to operate at high ambient and hot operating temperatures (it will tear and wear like cheese). The topic of rubber compound operating temperature is discussed in the .pdf file attached - should you need more detailed information (starting on page 8).
.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by Redd

Great thread! Here's a tough one for everyone here - I'm looking for a 200tw tire that I can take to the occasional trackday and also daily in wet weather.

I'm currently using Yokohama Advan AD08R but it's an old compound and I'd like a tire which can give me a bit more grip on track. The problem I've had with finding a replacement is that the AD08R is one of those great at nothing, but good at everything tires. Good grip, good steering feel, handles heat cycles well, wears well, usable down to the wear markers, decently low noise levels, usable in the wet and hydroplanes straight.

Know any other tires that fit that description? I don't need it to set hero laps, just need it to survive the occasional trackday without turning into a brick after some heat. I was considering the Dunlop Direzza Z3 but they don't have the sizes I need in my country.

Hankook RS4 is popular here but having driven RS2 in the past, they were super noisy and had sharp grip drop-off after 50%. Is the RS4 better in that respect?

Any suggestions will be welcome.

RT660 maybe? Cheaper then the ECF, better in the wet and comes in better sizes then the RS4 for the E92.

Will probably wear a bit quicker but the cheaper cost can help offset that..

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by rhyary

Will see if this work this season.
.

you're runnign 305/30/19 squared?

or you just mix-matching front and back tire

[bigjae1976]

I have had a different experience with the NT01 vs RR.

An RR is about 1 to 1.5 seconds faster on a 2.4 mile course on a 1:41-1:43 lap. And the RR falls off after about a 4-6 heat cycles and then eventually is an NT01.

The RR is more durable and gets to about 2-3 seconds off the fastest pace.

NT01s - they are consistent until corded. Usually run a .5 sec to 1 sec faster lap on the first day.

This is my 04 M3 that is 2630lbs dry…I have never corded an RR. Rarely do I cord an NT01. They both eventually heat cycle out after 8 days and become pretty bad.

[PrimeBMW]

Originally Posted by b4hand

What is a "day" for you?

A HPDE day with a R7 or A7 would be 4 to 6 sessions of 20 minutes a piece. And to clarify this is with the E92 M3 street car with a decent amount of camber. They work quite nicely on that car.
*They did not work on the race car and would have required a bunch of setup changes.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

you're runnign 305/30/19 squared?

or you just mix-matching front and back tire

Front 265/35/19 or 285/30/19 when on rear 305/30/19

When the rear is 295/30/19 I use 285/30/19 front

When rear is 275/35/19 I use 265/35/19

While I don't care about tire manufacture, I do match the type. If I can't match the type I use stickier tire on the rear.

Having said that, I break my own rules when I feel like.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I have had a different experience with the NT01 vs RR.

An RR is about 1 to 1.5 seconds faster on a 2.4 mile course on a 1:41-1:43 lap. And the RR falls off after about a 4-6 heat cycles and then eventually is an NT01.

The RR is more durable and gets to about 2-3 seconds off the fastest pace.

NT01s - they are consistent until corded. Usually run a .5 sec to 1 sec faster lap on the first day.

This is my 04 M3 that is 2630lbs dry…I have never corded an RR. Rarely do I cord an NT01. They both eventually heat cycle out after 8 days and become pretty bad.

Interesting - thanks for sharing.

I've found the RR to be faster, by only by ~0.5 seconds in my experience. But, different car and track compared to your test so I'm sure it can vary.

I suppose the one thing I should note is I always put 1 initial heat cycle on the tire, and let it sit for at least 24 hrs before running it again. Do you do the same, or just run them from new? Perhaps that plays a part in the discrepancy as well.

[DrFerry]

Street use article below from November 23, 2021 - Nitto NT01 vs Toyo R888. On track test data within the video below and at the speed.academy link. Same car, same track, same driver, same day.. See this March-2019 speed.academy article with telemetry data about the R888R: https://speed.academy/100-tread-wear...c1-toyo-r888r/
.

.
Street and general use article re: Nitto NT01 vs Toyo R888
https://tireterrain.com/nitto-nt01-vs-toyo-r888/
.

[rhyary]

I really really like the RR 295/30/19 on the rear when I was able to get them for $208/tire. Unfortunately they don't come in useful size for my front, so I always have to pair them with 200tw tire.

Now that they went up in price, they lost some of the appeal.

[DrFerry]

Anyone know much about the Proxes RS1 slick? It looks like a potential Hoosier R7 competitor. I found only 1 review, but I also found the specs interesting because of the rayon carcass choice (better thermal stability under load) and the steel reinforced sidewall architecture (better lateral stability, yaw damping and steering response).
.
https://www.toyotires.com/product/proxes-rs1/.
.
https://trackdaytire.com/product/toyo-proxes-rs1/
.

.
https://www.lsxmag.com/news/upping-g...e-tire-lineup/
.

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by rhyary

I really really like the RR 295/30/19 on the rear when I was able to get them for $208/tire. Unfortunately they don't come in useful size for my front, so I always have to pair them with 200tw tire. Now that they went up in price, they lost some of the appeal.

They've definitely gone up in price. The price of tires is linked to the price of oil, because a tire is about ~65% oil! I found a 295/30R19 for $299 here:
https://trackdaytire.com/product/toyo-proxes-rr/

IF you ran an 18inch front wheel then you can get a 275/35R18 RR also at the link above. Perhaps you could buy someone's used OEM 9.5X18in rear axle wheels and use them on your front axle - assuming your brake calipers will allow that. This is quite common with Porsche ALMS where teams run different size wheels on the front and rear axles.

[rhyary]

I can't run 18" wheels.
this issue has been debated enough in other threads and this horse has been dead for two years. :-)

I have settled on 265/35/19 as my go forward fronts. Many 200tw choices and good enough.

There are no fast tires in 285/30/19 but once in a while a max performance tires (300tw) comes on sale and is cheap enough to add to inventory.

My home track, NYST, eats front tires and therefore I go there with as cheap 285/30/19 as I can find and call it good enough.

[e36clubracer]

Originally Posted by rhyary

I can't run 18" wheels.
this issue has been debated enough in other threads and this horse has been dead for two years. :-)

I have been settled on 265/35/19 as my go forward fronts. Many 200tw choices and good enough.

There are no fast tires in 285/30/19 but once in a while a max performance tires (300tw) comes on sale and is cheap enough to add to inventory.

My home track, NYST, eats front tires and therefore I go there with as cheap 285/30/19 as I can find and call it good enough.

You spend $20k on your brake kit but then you're counting pennies on buying tires.... You can't make this shit up!

[derbo]

Originally Posted by Redd

Great thread! Here's a tough one for everyone here - I'm looking for a 200tw tire that I can take to the occasional trackday and also daily in wet weather.

I'm currently using Yokohama Advan AD08R but it's an old compound and I'd like a tire which can give me a bit more grip on track. The problem I've had with finding a replacement is that the AD08R is one of those great at nothing, but good at everything tires. Good grip, good steering feel, handles heat cycles well, wears well, usable down to the wear markers, decently low noise levels, usable in the wet and hydroplanes straight.

Know any other tires that fit that description? I don't need it to set hero laps, just need it to survive the occasional trackday without turning into a brick after some heat. I was considering the Dunlop Direzza Z3 but they don't have the sizes I need in my country.

Hankook RS4 is popular here but having driven RS2 in the past, they were super noisy and had sharp grip drop-off after 50%. Is the RS4 better in that respect?

Any suggestions will be welcome.

What about the factory camaro tire? Goodyear super car3? Not the 3R but the 3.

Originally Posted by DrFerry

And

derbo Operating temperature and a heat cycle are related, but not the same thing.

tsk94 defined one heat cycle perfectly above i.e. from the ambient condition bringing the tire up to the operating temperature range (zone) its tread compound(s) and other rubber components were designed to operate within - once - and then allowing the tire to thoroughly cool down to ambient temperature. So one on track session equals one heat cycle IF the tire is exercised hard enough to get it hot enough to "come-in" i.e. into its tread compound's peak grip temperature regime. Sorry for all the words.

A tire's rubber compound(s) - especially its tread - are designed (compounded) to perform at peak grip depending upon the environment it's being used in. Example: a winter tire is designed to be supple and provide grip well below freezing in ice and snow, but that same winter tire doesn't do well at a race track during hot laps because the rubber compound in the tread isn't designed to operate at high ambient and hot operating temperatures (it will tear and wear like cheese). The topic of rubber compound operating temperature is discussed in the .pdf file attached - should you need more detailed information (starting on page 8).
.

Appreciate the extra words! It confirms my understanding of a heat cycle. I think we were on the same page, where a full heat cycle involves both starting from ambient, reaching operating temp of the tire, then cooling back down to ambient. I didn't see the pdf attached. I'll check back this thread when I'm not on my phone if I missed it due to the mobile app. Thanks guys!

[e36clubracer]

Originally Posted by DrFerry

Anyone know much about the Proxes RS1 slick? It looks like a potential Hoosier R7 competitor. I found only 1 review, but I also found the specs interesting because of the rayon carcass choice (better thermal stability under load) and the steel reinforced sidewall architecture (better lateral stability, yaw damping and steering response).
.
https://www.toyotires.com/product/proxes-rs1/.
.
https://trackdaytire.com/product/toyo-proxes-rs1/
.

.
https://www.lsxmag.com/news/upping-g...e-tire-lineup/
.

I hadn't seen those Toyo slicks.... too bad they don't come in more sizes. Has anyone tried these?

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by derbo

What about the factory camaro tire? Goodyear super car3? Not the 3R but the 3.

Appreciate the extra words! It confirms my understanding of a heat cycle. I think we were on the same page, where a full heat cycle involves both starting from ambient, reaching operating temp of the tire, then cooling back down to ambient. I didn't see the pdf attached. I'll check back this thread when I'm not on my phone if I missed it due to the mobile app. Thanks guys!

The GY Supercar 3 is tested on track here:
.

.

[derbo]

Originally Posted by DrFerry

The GY Supercar 3 is tested on track here:
.

.

I remember watching that and laugh when he said the I don't get why the internet loves the R888R.

After my RE71R wear out, I'll be in the same boat as Redd. I think ECF, or SC3 would be on the top of my list of HPDE lapper tires.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by e36clubracer

You spend $20k on your brake kit but then you're counting pennies on buying tires.... You can't make this shit up!

I am not counting pennies.
I am counting thousands of $$ per season.
If I were you, I would not assume that you know better about how to spend my money :-)

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by derbo

I remember watching that and laugh when he said the I don't get why the internet loves the R888R.

After my RE71R wear out, I'll be in the same boat as Redd. I think ECF, or SC3 would be on the top of my list of HPDE lapper tires.

Johnathan does some good stuff but I'm always a little suspicious when he tests at a tire manufacturer's facility because then their products seem to win his tests. Even the GY Supercar 3 testing that he did at Nelson Ledges - and was sponsored by GY - the GY SC3 and GYSC3R were the winners (came out on top).. Just my two cents caveat. His better and more interesting recent test to me was "Slicks vs. Track Tire vs. UHP Street Tire"..
.

.

[Z K]

SC3R for me. I'm on my 2nd set. Great track tire, quiet on the street if you drive on the street. Grip is up there with the Michelin Cup 2 R tires, NT01 and others. Grip also doesn't fall off as it gets hot like other street tires. Even though it is sold as a "street" tire, this is a R compound tire and should be treated as such.

Just be aware they are very bad in cold temperatures - anything under 60 F. You need to warm up the tires before they grip. 1st few laps are always a bit scary as it can slide out as if you're on ice.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by DrFerry

The GY Supercar 3 is tested on track here:
.

.

I forgot about the non-R 3. That would probably be an excellent option as well for a 200tw tire.
I know some people locally that have used them are were impressed - I was told they wear very well.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by rhyary

Front 265/35/19 or 285/30/19 when on rear 305/30/19

When the rear is 295/30/19 I use 285/30/19 front

When rear is 275/35/19 I use 265/35/19

While I don't care about tire manufacture, I do match the type. If I can't match the type I use stickier tire on the rear.

Having said that, I break my own rules when I feel like.

no no i understand, cause i do the same thing also. as long as its a 200TW tire..