HPDE experiments, results and observations

[rhyary]

The DSC status is very helpful to any one practice driving on the limit. Not to set best lap time.

It can be used to see if your butt can feel the limit. Look at the data and analyze why the DSC was activated.

But it may not be something we can get.

I pushed MaxxECU to the limit of his patience.

We got DCT Temp.

If the drive shaft speed is working, we can analys DS speed vs rear wheel speed, but that will not help with the front.

We have a parameter that says when the TCU (transmission ecu) is reducing Torque compares to requested which may indicate traction control is activated.

I am not sure at what point AIM will get tired of me. MaxxECU already closed the ticket @///Mobbin opened and I used. :-)

[derbo]

Originally Posted by rhyary

I don't know. DRLane is testing 6MT when ever he gets his car running.

My hope for DSC Status was to get data when the DSC is active, but I am afraid it may just tell me when the button is on or off (not useful)

I remember RS3 showed a channel that showed 0,1,2 for DSC status but that was just if the button was on, MDM, or off. I hope that's not what it is referring to.

[Bartledoo]

DSC activation in this car is so far from being an indicator of driving on the limit. Hopefully you take that seriously.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by rhyary

The DSC status is very helpful to any one practice driving on the limit. Not to set best lap time.

It can be used to see if your butt can feel the limit. Look at the data and analyze why the DSC was activated.

But it may not be something we can get.

I pushed MaxxECU to the limit of his patience.

We got DCT Temp.

If the drive shaft speed is working, we can analys DS speed vs rear wheel speed, but that will not help with the front.

We have a parameter that says when the TCU (transmission ecu) is reducing Torque compares to requested which may indicate traction control is activated.

I am not sure at what point AIM will get tired of me. MaxxECU already closed the ticket @///Mobbin opened and I used. :-)

Ha, well if you told AIM about your tire setups and why these parameters are critical, I'm sure they'd reconsider 🤣. Or you'd break their souls…

I'm hoping DCT temp works for manuals. I'd be curious about what our temps are at.

If I drive with DSC on, the car is undriveable on track. I'm happy with the car stepping out vs disabling my inputs.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

DSC activation in this car is so far from being an indicator of driving on the limit. Hopefully you take that seriously.

Not for someone who is taking his car for the first year and drives on Euro MDM.

It can show how one goes to throttle too early and activating the DSC and self inducing limit.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by rhyary

Not for someone who is taking his car for the first year and drives on Euro MDM.

It can show how one goes to throttle too early and activating the DSC and self inducing limit.

No it really doesn’t. Most people think they were too early on throttle when they were actually too late on throttle. This is because most commonly they are pinching the exit (potentially because the car wasn’t rotated early enough) and that is the root cause, which makes their throttle application seem too early. Euro MDM does not teach this…

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

No it really doesn't. Most people think they were too early on throttle when they were actually too late on throttle. This is because most commonly they are pinching the exit (because the car wasn't rotated early enough) and that is the root cause, which makes their throttle application seem to early. Euro MDM does not teach this…

Most root cause for going too early to throttle is too slow entry speed.

In my opinion, as an exercise, it is useful to drive the car with Euro MDM on, and see how fast you can go without activating the traction control.

But never mind about my opinion, it is not important.

[derbo]

Originally Posted by DRLane

Ha, well if you told AIM about your tire setups and why these parameters are critical, I'm sure they'd reconsider ��. Or you'd break their souls…

I'm hoping DCT temp works for manuals. I'd be curious about what our temps are at.

If I drive with DSC on, the car is undriveable on track. I'm happy with the car stepping out vs disabling my inputs.

As we mentioned in the discord chat, there is a temp sensor on the 6MT transmission. I do suspect the single temp sensor in the 6MT is largely different location in the address space though. The 6MT sounds like the oil cooler is adjusted by the MSS60 where as the DCT, the DKG electronics control the oil cooler.

## Manual

The transmission oil pump is controlled by the
MSS60 depending on the transmission oil
temperature.
The activation threshold is approx. 130 °C and
the deactivation threshold is approx. 110 °C.
Should the transmission oil temperature rise
above approx. 145 °C due to a fault, the
temperature value is gradually reduced in
accordance with the engine speed in
increments of 150-500 rpm, to a minimum of
5,000
rpm. 5,000 rpm is also the value in the event of
a failure of the ATF temperature sensor.

## DCT

MDCTTransmission Sensors
The following sensors are mounted in the transmission and their signals are sent directly
to the M DCT electronics:
• Input shaft 1 speed (Hall) sensor monitors rotation and direction of transmission
shaft 1.
• Input shaft 2 speed (Hall) sensor without rotation direction detection for the
transmission shaft 2.
• Clutch oil pressure (Piezo) sensors for clutch 1 and 2.
• 3 temperature sensors (NTC), one for the ejected clutch oil and two redundant
temperature sensors for the M DCT electronics.
• 4 linear (Hall) sensors monitor the selector rod position.
• 1 double (redundant) parking lock (Hall) sensor.
The oil sump temperature is measured using a complex temperature map and checked
against the temperature of the clutch oil by the M DCT electronics.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by rhyary

Most root cause for going too early to throttle is too slow entry speed.

In my opinion, as an exercise, it is useful to drive the car with Euro MDM on, and see how fast you can go without activating the traction control.

But never mind about my opinion, it is not important.

That’s early part throttle. Entirely different. We’re talking full throttle here.

[sc_tr0jan_m3]

Can we at least agree that dsc or mdm should not be active in a track car?!

Using dsc and mdm as a learning tool for finding the limits is just teaching you to drive under the limits.

[dogbone]

Really happy to see DCT temps working on the AIM!!! Nice job on getting that done!

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by rhyary

Most root cause for going too early to throttle is too slow entry speed.

In my opinion, as an exercise, it is useful to drive the car with Euro MDM on, and see how fast you can go without activating the traction control.

But never mind about my opinion, it is not important.

Activating traction control is not really an issue though. There's always going to be some difference (sometimes fairly significant) in wheel speed when driving on or near the limit.

In my M4 that I was tracking at the end of the season, TC would activate driving in auto mode doing cool down laps to cool off brakes that caught on fire (lol). The E92 was similar. TC would intervene driving at 5-6/10ths. But when I turn it off it's not like I was getting constant oversteer everywhere, but enough 'oversteer' for good rotation.

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

That’s early part throttle. Entirely different. We’re talking full throttle here.

^

[VicS5]

Originally Posted by sc_tr0jan_m3

Can we at least agree that dsc or mdm should not be active in a track car?!

Using dsc and mdm as a learning tool for finding the limits is just teaching you to drive under the limits.

As an instructor sitting in the right seat, I want that DSC active until the student can demonstrate that they can sense the limit and approach it cautiously from below, rather than discover it suddenly from above.

I agree that there is little utility of DSC for accomplished track drivers, but it is a valuable safety tool for those just beginning to explore driving on track. If a newbie is repeatedly triggering traction control with no insight regarding why, it's a red flag. For many there comes a time when the DSC only impedes progress, and some of those may choose to leave it on for security as part of their risk:benefit calculus. But there are a few for whom other sports beckon and who should always leave it on.

If the assumption is that those with dedicated "track cars" have already demonstrated the necessary skill then I would agree, but my experience suggest otherwise.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by VicS5

As an instructor sitting in the right seat, I want that DSC active until the student can demonstrate that they can sense the limit and approach it cautiously from below, rather than discover it suddenly from above.
.

As an instructor I totally agree.

[sc_tr0jan_m3]

Originally Posted by VicS5

As an instructor sitting in the right seat, I want that DSC active until the student can demonstrate that they can sense the limit and approach it cautiously from below, rather than discover it suddenly from above.

I agree that there is little utility of DSC for accomplished track drivers, but it is a valuable safety tool for those just beginning to explore driving on track. If a newbie is repeatedly triggering traction control with no insight regarding why, it's a red flag. For many there comes a time when the DSC only impedes progress, and some of those may choose to leave it on for security as part of their risk:benefit calculus. But there are a few for whom other sports beckon and who should always leave it on.

If the assumption is that those with dedicated "track cars" have already demonstrated the necessary skill then I would agree, but my experience suggest otherwise.

As an instructor myself too, I wholeheartedly agree too! Lol

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by dogbone

Really happy to see DCT temps working on the AIM!!! Nice job on getting that done!

Thank you.
Feel free to give me a hard time on the DSC status variable

[VicS5]

I already have that DSC variable on my MXm.
It only indicates active or inactive, it doesn't convey when it is triggered and working.

I'm also appreciative of the DCT temperature solution. I'll reach out to try it out.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by VicS5

I already have that DSC variable on my MXm.
It only indicates active or inactive, it doesn't convey when it is triggered and working.

I'm also appreciative of the DCT temperature solution. I'll reach out to try it out.

yep, this was a clarification I got from MaxxECU later.

Initially he just gave me the byte then clarified that it just to tell what the button is doing, which is not useful.

[admranger]

Originally Posted by VicS5

If the assumption is that those with dedicated "track cars" have already demonstrated the necessary skill then I would agree, but my experience suggest otherwise.

In my experience, the more mods the less skill at DE events (to a point). Clearly, there are exceptions (especially in this group) but most aren't the usual people if they are on this sub-forum. It nearly always seemed to be the guys with all the power mods, BBKs, and loud AF exhausts that were first to explore the limits of adhesion and exceed them uncontrollably. Exceptional right foot talent in these folks though. Devastatingly so.

FWIW, on my last few track days when my goal was turning gas into noise and nothing else, I ran euro MDM. My skills had atrophied to a point where I didn't want to go off and cause a delay for other drivers. My "instructor" thought I was being too cautious. Funny that the guy in the M4 thought I was plenty fast, especially since it was my first time at his "home track", and I was keeping up.

[admranger]

rhyary Pretty cool to get the DCT temps coding done. Nice service to the community.

The previous owner of my E36M3 race car had added a temp sensor to the transmission. I routinely saw 300 deg F temps on the trans. I asked a fellow racer (Jim Liethauser -- nat'l champion at SCCA runoffs) what to do. He said: "Put black electrical tape over the gauge." Solid.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by admranger

In my experience, the more mods the less skill at DE events (to a point). Clearly, there are exceptions (especially in this group) but most aren't the usual people if they are on this sub-forum. It nearly always seemed to be the guys with all the power mods, BBKs, and loud AF exhausts that were first to explore the limits of adhesion and exceed them uncontrollably. Exceptional right foot talent in these folks though. Devastatingly so.

FWIW, on my last few track days when my goal was turning gas into noise and nothing else, I ran euro MDM. My skills had atrophied to a point where I didn't want to go off and cause a delay for other drivers. My "instructor" thought I was being too cautious. Funny that the guy in the M4 thought I was plenty fast, especially since it was my first time at his "home track", and I was keeping up.

“Bro! Did you see how hard I pressed the pedal there?!” (*Throttle pedal…we know how hard Gab presses the brake pedal )

[admranger]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

“Bro! Did you see how hard I pressed the pedal there?!” (*Throttle pedal…we know how hard Gab presses the brake pedal )

Pushed it all the way to 11.