HPDE experiments, results and observations

Bartledoo · 10-29-2020, 02:07 PM

"Caveat is that PS91 285/30/19 is just as good as Cup2 265/35/19 counting lap times and longevity."

"As much as I liked the RR and its price, I did not see a significant advantage compares to 295/30 MPSS "

I would suggest rewording some of your claims to notify all readers that with you as the driver, these tires seem to provide similar performance, because these are not objective observations. There is plenty of data out there from professional sources to show the performance difference between some of these tires you are suggesting to be the same.

Also, do not compare the price of RS4 to other tires until you see how long an RS4 will last.

b4hand · 10-29-2020, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhyary

At Palmer I did also double sessions per hour So some sessions are 25 min. So I will run 2 x 25 back to back

At NYST we do 7x20min but by the end of the day if the track go open, I will run for a straight 40min or more if I have gas.

I can look at my AiM data and calculate all the information, but it gets diminishing value.

For example, by the time I am done at NYST, I am on 1:42 pace which is much easier on the tires but they also almost gone. So just because I can go another day on 1:45, does not mean I don't put on a fresh set of tires.

So I don't know how to capture that kind of info into a spreadsheet. The pace is very important for tire speak.

I think you can do an average pace. So something like
Tire 1 - Session length - Fastest lap - Average lap time - time of session (3:00pm, etc) - air temp - tire temp - pressure at start - pressure at end.

Now even if you ran that tire again and it was slower, the fastest lap would probably be a percentage of the average. If your average slows down 7%, your fastest lap would probably be with that range from your last session. This way you could show how long a tire can keep at a certain pace over multiple sessions, even back to back sessions.

Just some thoughts.

rhyary · 10-29-2020, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

"Caveat is that PS91 285/30/19 is just as good as Cup2 265/35/19 counting lap times and longevity."

"As much as I liked the RR and its price, I did not see a significant advantage compares to 295/30 MPSS "

I would suggest rewording some of your claims to notify all readers that with you as the driver, these tires seem to provide similar performance, because these are not objective observations. There is plenty of data out there from professional sources to show the performance difference between some of these tires you are suggesting to be the same.

Also, do not compare the price of RS4 to other tires until you see how long an RS4 will last.

At the same token, Lewis Hamilton will be faster on the PS91 when most drivers are on A7.

So of course it is with in the given context of my car and me as a driver

This is an E92 M3 Forum. So it is only within a context of 3600Lbs car. My observations are not advise, they are observations

And I drive to the track, including RR and R7

YMMV

We good?

rhyary · 11-05-2020, 07:20 PM

Tomorrow Friday is LRP day.
The weather is perfect and a big surprise for early Nov. But I'll take it.

I am running two groups, so lots of track time. I have my homework form last time.

I feel sub 60 sec is within reach, but have no plans to be stupid just to go for it.

I have to work on specific spots, I know what I need to do and it is about executing what I know should be done.

DRLane · 11-05-2020, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhyary

Tomorrow Friday is LRP day.
The weather is perfect and a big surprise for early Nov. But I'll take it.

I am running two groups, so lots of track time. I have my homework form last time.

I feel sub 60 sec is within reach, but have no plans to be stupid just to go for it.

I have to work on specific spots, I know what I need to do and it is about executing what I know should be done.

Good luck man!

slowdown_dan · 11-06-2020, 05:04 AM

How are you able to run the car in two different run groups?

Which brakes do you have that no 18" wheel will clear? I'm curious because even a handful of 18" apex will clear the 380 brembo kit.

rhyary · 11-06-2020, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by butte2butte

How are you able to run the car in two different run groups?

Which brakes do you have that no 18" wheel will clear? I'm curious because even a handful of 18" apex will clear the 380 brembo kit.

20 min + 20min. 20 min break
I have large Brembo brakes
While they clear 18" wheels, the gap is too small for my comfort level.

slowdown_dan · 11-06-2020, 09:34 AM

I understand you run in two groups, my question is how? The DE days I've done generally only allow one run group per driver, until the last open session.

dparm · 11-06-2020, 09:35 AM

Don't you have the Brembo CCM-R? Or am I thinking of someone else?

rhyary · 11-06-2020, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRLane

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhyary

Tomorrow Friday is LRP day.
The weather is perfect and a big surprise for early Nov. But I'll take it.

I am running two groups, so lots of track time. I have my homework form last time.

I feel sub 60 sec is within reach, but have no plans to be stupid just to go for it.

I have to work on specific spots, I know what I need to do and it is about executing what I know should be done.

Good luck man!

Thank you.

Some logical hot PSI calculation.

285/30/19 OEM cold is 30psi
295/30/19 OEM cold is 34psi

Because I removed weight and no rear passengers I ran 30psi on the back as well.

So when I got to LRP after driving 70miles my tire pressure was 33psi. I concluded that this is what BMW want to to run. 33PSI

So this would be my target hot. down from 35 hot.

Will see how it feels and adjust from there. I did ran the rear on 32 hot. Will see what temps I can get on 33psi.

ThunderMoose · 11-06-2020, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by butte2butte

I understand you run in two groups, my question is how? The DE days I've done generally only allow one run group per driver, until the last open session.

You pay for both

rhyary · 11-07-2020, 07:53 AM

Nov 6th LRP notes
perfect weather with no good results
I was only able to get into the 1:01 and good amount of laps on 1:02s

There was a car off in the morning that we lost a session and an M3 flipped on the hill and we lost an hour. No timely point bys, not enough open laps to get into pace. Meh kind of a day

On top of that, my car did not feel right until the last session.

On to the details:
So I came to the day wanting to try 33psi hot and it was proven to be a bad idea in unexpected way.

33psi hot means 23 cold (85 deg f in the paddock) Below 25psi the TPMS freaks out and constantly giving me red errors and binging merrily thru the first 5 or more laps. You can't reset the TPMS to be happy with less then 25psi. This is new to me

In addition, the front driver (the one that works the hardest on a predominantly right turn track like LRP) temps were not healthy. The outside was 130 and inside was 185. On a max performance tire 185 I think is too hot.

Anyway trying this and that, I set the psi @ 85 deg to be 28 front and 25 rear.

That yielded front 36.5 and rear 31 hot in the rear. And it felt good.

I addition to the tire psi and degree saga, I had the front too soft. I clicked +6 on the high speed front (from my road setting) and it allowed too much wight transfer to the front and the rear loose feeling coming onto turn 3 on the brakes.

But with the psi story I did not address this issue in first few sessions which were, as I said, distracting and my attention was not into damping.

So last session car felt good, I felt confident, did some place in 1:01 but by the last session it was not a good time to do Time Trails and I enjoyed the car at a safe pace.

What I have learned:
cold = 85 deg which is what the tire was coming back from getting gas, or before getting on the track at 65deg ambient.

25psi cold is as low I want to go.
28psi cold front
25psi cold rear
Road HS clicks 9, Track HS +5 (14)

Also to control weight shift with out making the front stiffer, will go +1 on the rear rebound.

ThunderMoose · 11-07-2020, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhyary

Nov 6th LRP notes
perfect weather with no good results
I was only able to get into the 1:01 and good amount of laps on 1:02s

There was a car off in the morning that we lost a session and an M3 flipped on the hill and we lost an hour. No timely point bys, not enough open laps to get into pace. Meh kind of a day

On top of that, my car did not feel right until the last session.

On to the details:
So I came to the day wanting to try 33psi hot and it was proven to be a bad idea in unexpected way.

33psi hot means 23 cold (85 deg f in the paddock) Below 25psi the TPMS freaks out and constantly giving me red errors and binging merrily thru the first 5 or more laps. You can't reset the TPMS to be happy with less then 25psi. This is new to me

In addition, the front driver (the one that works the hardest on a predominantly right turn track like LRP) temps were not healthy. The outside was 130 and inside was 185. On a max performance tire 185 I think is too hot.

Anyway trying this and that, I set the psi @ 85 deg to be 28 front and 25 rear.

That yielded front 36.5 and rear 31 hot in the rear. And it felt good.

I addition to the tire psi and degree saga, I had the front too soft. I clicked +6 on the high speed front (from my road setting) and it allowed too much wight transfer to the front and the rear loose feeling coming onto turn 3 on the brakes.

But with the psi story I did not address this issue in first few sessions which were, as I said, distracting and my attention was not into damping.

So last session car felt good, I felt confident, did some place in 1:01 but by the last session it was not a good time to do Time Trails and I enjoyed the car at a safe pace.

What I have learned:
cold = 85 deg which is what the tire was coming back from getting gas, or before getting on the track at 65deg ambient.

25psi cold is as low I want to go.
28psi cold front
25psi cold rear
Road HS clicks 9, Track HS +5 (14)

Also to control weight shift with out making the front stiffer, will go +1 on the rear rebound.

I thought for sure that you were going to break 1:00. Any more track days at LRP before end of year?

rhyary · 11-07-2020, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhyary

Nov 6th LRP notes
perfect weather with no good results
I was only able to get into the 1:01 and good amount of laps on 1:02s

There was a car off in the morning that we lost a session and an M3 flipped on the hill and we lost an hour. No timely point bys, not enough open laps to get into pace. Meh kind of a day

On top of that, my car did not feel right until the last session.

On to the details:
So I came to the day wanting to try 33psi hot and it was proven to be a bad idea in unexpected way.

33psi hot means 23 cold (85 deg f in the paddock) Below 25psi the TPMS freaks out and constantly giving me red errors and binging merrily thru the first 5 or more laps. You can't reset the TPMS to be happy with less then 25psi. This is new to me

In addition, the front driver (the one that works the hardest on a predominantly right turn track like LRP) temps were not healthy. The outside was 130 and inside was 185. On a max performance tire 185 I think is too hot.

Anyway trying this and that, I set the psi @ 85 deg to be 28 front and 25 rear.

That yielded front 36.5 and rear 31 hot in the rear. And it felt good.

I addition to the tire psi and degree saga, I had the front too soft. I clicked +6 on the high speed front (from my road setting) and it allowed too much wight transfer to the front and the rear loose feeling coming onto turn 3 on the brakes.

But with the psi story I did not address this issue in first few sessions which were, as I said, distracting and my attention was not into damping.

So last session car felt good, I felt confident, did some place in 1:01 but by the last session it was not a good time to do Time Trails and I enjoyed the car at a safe pace.

What I have learned:
cold = 85 deg which is what the tire was coming back from getting gas, or before getting on the track at 65deg ambient.

25psi cold is as low I want to go.
28psi cold front
25psi cold rear
Road HS clicks 9, Track HS +5 (14)

Also to control weight shift with out making the front stiffer, will go +1 on the rear rebound.

I thought for sure that you were going to break 1:00. Any more track days at LRP before end of year?

open track day on the 20th
but weather.....

rhyary · 11-07-2020, 11:09 AM

So I am a bit disappointed not getting into the 60sec range let a long going under.

But mostly I was expecting to feel the confidence I felt on the Oct 24th day.

But all is not lost. I now feel comfortable at 1:01-1:02, in a way I felt at 1:04-1:05. So while 1:01 used to feel frantic, now I am relaxed, breathing normally and passing people where I can off-line.

Second, at 1:01-1:02 I am building a database of "happenings" that are on a small scale. For example, when I get into oversteer end of big bend, or at 3, I react kind of slow, but it is fast enough to catch the slow slide.

Going over the hill at 80mph my pots telling me I am at full extension. So the car get light, but I am not really jumping. But it registers the importance of jumping with 0 steering angle.

I am not hitting west bend the way I want to. The video shows that I am getting into 10 degrees steering angle while I was sure I am going straight. So I am early subconsciously.

So all this experiences are building up, while I am not meeting my goal of sub 60.

I'll get there

dparm · 11-07-2020, 02:33 PM

Easiest way to find time will be to look at the G-sum trace over the lap. Look for large dips in the transitions.

rhyary · 11-07-2020, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dparm

Easiest way to find time will be to look at the G-sum trace over the lap. Look for large dips in the transitions.

Yes I can find 2 seconds in the data.
The problem is the driving.

I am finding out that knowing what to do does not equal doing it.

tsk94 · 11-07-2020, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhyary

Yes I can find 2 seconds in the data.
The problem is the driving.

I am finding out that knowing what to do does not equal doing it.

Great point. Knowing is only half, probably less, of the battle.

Part of the fun is the challenge. If it was as simple as going out and setting the best possible time for a given car easily, the sport would get boring rather quickly for a lot of people.

OG Shark · 11-07-2020, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsk94

Great point. Knowing is only half, probably less, of the battle.

Part of the fun is the challenge. If it was as simple as going out and setting the best possible time for a given car easily, the sport would get boring rather quickly for a lot of people.

Sorry but you are wrong - knowing is exactly half the battle - never, ever is it less. And the other half - well it's lasers

ThunderMoose · 11-07-2020, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OG Shark

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsk94

Great point. Knowing is only half, probably less, of the battle.

Part of the fun is the challenge. If it was as simple as going out and setting the best possible time for a given car easily, the sport would get boring rather quickly for a lot of people.

Sorry but you are wrong - knowing is exactly half the battle - never, ever is it less. And the other half - well it's lasers

Pretty sure the last 25% involves kittens

rhyary · 11-08-2020, 02:43 PM

Stats
Date: Nov 6 2020
Organization: SCDA
Track: Lime Rock Park, CT
Weather: Dry beautiful day
4 x 40min

Tires Front: Ecsta PS91 2020 day 2
285/30/19

Tires Rear: MPSS 2016
295/30/19 day 3

Time: 1:01.9
Many laps on 1:02.x

Comments:
Traffic, session cut short, tire pressure not working out. Last session it felt better. This video is from the last session although my fastest time was not this session

Link:

FXMR · 11-11-2020, 07:04 PM

Have to drop in and say wow...I just read through all of this thread and there is a WEALTH of information. Awesome thread

rhyary I was the black F80 near you in the paddock at LRP on the 6th (note: not the black M4 that had the incident). Your car was killer and it lit the fire even more for me to get into an E92 HPDE car. Cheers!

10-29-2020, 02:07 PM	#441
Bartledoo Driver 2708 Rep 2,715 Posts Drives: 2011 E90 M3 6MT Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Seattle, WA iTrader: (0) Garage List 2023 Corvette Stingray [0.00] 2002 Porsche Boxster [0.00] 2011 E90 M3 [0.00] 2021 Tesla Model Y [0.00]	"Caveat is that PS91 285/30/19 is just as good as Cup2 265/35/19 counting lap times and longevity." "As much as I liked the RR and its price, I did not see a significant advantage compares to 295/30 MPSS " I would suggest rewording some of your claims to notify all readers that with you as the driver, these tires seem to provide similar performance, because these are not objective observations. There is plenty of data out there from professional sources to show the performance difference between some of these tires you are suggesting to be the same. Also, do not compare the price of RS4 to other tires until you see how long an RS4 will last. __________________ E90M 6MT Slicktop Single Humper in need of a diet
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11-05-2020, 07:20 PM	#444
rhyary Banned 1637 Rep 2,883 Posts Drives: 2013 M3 Join Date: May 2015 Location: Albany, NY iTrader: (0)	Tomorrow Friday is LRP day. The weather is perfect and a big surprise for early Nov. But I'll take it. I am running two groups, so lots of track time. I have my homework form last time. I feel sub 60 sec is within reach, but have no plans to be stupid just to go for it. I have to work on specific spots, I know what I need to do and it is about executing what I know should be done.
	Appreciate 2 ThunderMoose752.00 DRLane4387.50

11-06-2020, 05:04 AM	#446
slowdown_dan First Lieutenant 284 Rep 304 Posts Drives: e93 Join Date: Jan 2020 Location: FLORIDA iTrader: (0)	How are you able to run the car in two different run groups? Which brakes do you have that no 18" wheel will clear? I'm curious because even a handful of 18" apex will clear the 380 brembo kit.
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11-06-2020, 09:34 AM	#448
slowdown_dan First Lieutenant 284 Rep 304 Posts Drives: e93 Join Date: Jan 2020 Location: FLORIDA iTrader: (0)	I understand you run in two groups, my question is how? The DE days I've done generally only allow one run group per driver, until the last open session.
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11-06-2020, 09:35 AM	#449
dparm Stop the hate, get a V8 3928 Rep 8,631 Posts Drives: C7 Corvette, Spec E46, G87 M2 Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Frisco, TX iTrader: (1)	Don't you have the Brembo CCM-R? Or am I thinking of someone else? __________________ Now: 2017 Corvette Grand Sport, 2001 BMW Spec E46 race car, 2025 BMW M2 Past: 2011.5 M3 sedan ZCP
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11-07-2020, 07:53 AM	#452
rhyary Banned 1637 Rep 2,883 Posts Drives: 2013 M3 Join Date: May 2015 Location: Albany, NY iTrader: (0)	Nov 6th LRP notes perfect weather with no good results I was only able to get into the 1:01 and good amount of laps on 1:02s There was a car off in the morning that we lost a session and an M3 flipped on the hill and we lost an hour. No timely point bys, not enough open laps to get into pace. Meh kind of a day On top of that, my car did not feel right until the last session. On to the details: So I came to the day wanting to try 33psi hot and it was proven to be a bad idea in unexpected way. 33psi hot means 23 cold (85 deg f in the paddock) Below 25psi the TPMS freaks out and constantly giving me red errors and binging merrily thru the first 5 or more laps. You can't reset the TPMS to be happy with less then 25psi. This is new to me In addition, the front driver (the one that works the hardest on a predominantly right turn track like LRP) temps were not healthy. The outside was 130 and inside was 185. On a max performance tire 185 I think is too hot. Anyway trying this and that, I set the psi @ 85 deg to be 28 front and 25 rear. That yielded front 36.5 and rear 31 hot in the rear. And it felt good. I addition to the tire psi and degree saga, I had the front too soft. I clicked +6 on the high speed front (from my road setting) and it allowed too much wight transfer to the front and the rear loose feeling coming onto turn 3 on the brakes. But with the psi story I did not address this issue in first few sessions which were, as I said, distracting and my attention was not into damping. So last session car felt good, I felt confident, did some place in 1:01 but by the last session it was not a good time to do Time Trails and I enjoyed the car at a safe pace. What I have learned: cold = 85 deg which is what the tire was coming back from getting gas, or before getting on the track at 65deg ambient. 25psi cold is as low I want to go. 28psi cold front 25psi cold rear Road HS clicks 9, Track HS +5 (14) Also to control weight shift with out making the front stiffer, will go +1 on the rear rebound.
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11-07-2020, 11:09 AM	#455
rhyary Banned 1637 Rep 2,883 Posts Drives: 2013 M3 Join Date: May 2015 Location: Albany, NY iTrader: (0)	So I am a bit disappointed not getting into the 60sec range let a long going under. But mostly I was expecting to feel the confidence I felt on the Oct 24th day. But all is not lost. I now feel comfortable at 1:01-1:02, in a way I felt at 1:04-1:05. So while 1:01 used to feel frantic, now I am relaxed, breathing normally and passing people where I can off-line. Second, at 1:01-1:02 I am building a database of "happenings" that are on a small scale. For example, when I get into oversteer end of big bend, or at 3, I react kind of slow, but it is fast enough to catch the slow slide. Going over the hill at 80mph my pots telling me I am at full extension. So the car get light, but I am not really jumping. But it registers the importance of jumping with 0 steering angle. I am not hitting west bend the way I want to. The video shows that I am getting into 10 degrees steering angle while I was sure I am going straight. So I am early subconsciously. So all this experiences are building up, while I am not meeting my goal of sub 60. I'll get there
	Appreciate 1 Kelse921139.00

11-07-2020, 02:33 PM	#456
dparm Stop the hate, get a V8 3928 Rep 8,631 Posts Drives: C7 Corvette, Spec E46, G87 M2 Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Frisco, TX iTrader: (1)	Easiest way to find time will be to look at the G-sum trace over the lap. Look for large dips in the transitions. __________________ Now: 2017 Corvette Grand Sport, 2001 BMW Spec E46 race car, 2025 BMW M2 Past: 2011.5 M3 sedan ZCP
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11-08-2020, 02:43 PM	#461
rhyary Banned 1637 Rep 2,883 Posts Drives: 2013 M3 Join Date: May 2015 Location: Albany, NY iTrader: (0)	Stats Date: Nov 6 2020 Organization: SCDA Track: Lime Rock Park, CT Weather: Dry beautiful day 4 x 40min Tires Front: Ecsta PS91 2020 day 2 285/30/19 Tires Rear: MPSS 2016 295/30/19 day 3 Time: 1:01.9 Many laps on 1:02.x Comments: Traffic, session cut short, tire pressure not working out. Last session it felt better. This video is from the last session although my fastest time was not this session Link:
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11-11-2020, 07:04 PM	#462
FXMR Private First Class 120 Rep 118 Posts Drives: M3 Join Date: May 2013 Location: CT iTrader: (1)	Have to drop in and say wow...I just read through all of this thread and there is a WEALTH of information. Awesome thread rhyary I was the black F80 near you in the paddock at LRP on the 6th (note: not the black M4 that had the incident). Your car was killer and it lit the fire even more for me to get into an E92 HPDE car. Cheers!
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