HPDE experiments, results and observations

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by Datka

Good job Ramy. I see a significant improvement in your driving skills.
And that is a result of a lot of track time I think. 40 min every hour is a lot of track time in one day.
I bet you can brake 1 min at LRP with A7 hoosiers.
At all 4 corners of course

Thank you. Hope to see you more at LRP

I don't think A7 will fix this. This I can do on Ecsta PS91 :-)

Photo credit Shawn Pierce Photography
.

[Datka]

Didn't you use these tires:
Tires Front: Ecsta PS91 stickers 2020
285/30/19
Tires Rear: MPSS 2016
295/30/19 day 2
Why don't you think you can improve your lap times with a7?

You don't see me at LRP often because I don't really like it as much any more for the following reasons:
too small, always crowded, no run off areas(small mistake, oil on the track surface or a mechanical failure can be very costly there) and believe it or not, it almost always rains or is about to rain when I go there.
One more thing: this track is the second most expensive one in the US to rent by the clubs and we pay for it.
Oh yeah, almost forgot one more thing. Noise restriction, which prevents me from taking my catless m3 there.
I go to WGI twice a year and many many times to my second favorite track Thunderbolt.
These are the real race tracks. I know you haven't been there yet, but I highly recommend you to include them in you track calendar for the next year. Will be glad to help to master racing lines and the best way to win HPDE trophies

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by Datka

Didn't you use these tires:
Tires Front: Ecsta PS91 stickers 2020
285/30/19
Tires Rear: MPSS 2016
295/30/19 day 2
Why don't you think you can improve your lap times with a7?

You don't see me at LRP often because I don't really like it as much any more for the following reasons:
too small, always crowded, no run off areas(small mistake, oil on the track surface or a mechanical failure can be very costly there) and believe it or not, it almost always rains or is about to rain when I go there.
One more thing: this track is the second most expensive one in the US to rent by the clubs and we pay for it.
Oh yeah, almost forgot one more thing. Noise restriction, which prevents me from taking my catless m3 there.
I go to WGI twice a year and many many times to my second favorite track Thunderbolt.
These are the real race tracks. I know you haven't been there yet, but I highly recommend you to include them in you track calendar for the next year. Will be glad to help to master racing lines and the best way to win HPDE trophies

I am sure I can improve lap time on A7, but rather learn the track on $200/tire

I am adding WGI next year.

I buy a discounted package from SCDA that lower my cost at LRP and PMP.

LRP and NYST are 70 minutes drive for me.
PMP is 90 minutes
WGI is 4 hours and I have to stay overnight

I have a lot to learn on close by tracks. This is the first year I am off the DSC completely, from warm up lap to warm down and I can actually feel how the car is moving.

I enjoy winning HPDE days by coming home in one piece. I wish I can do racing, but not in my budget.

[rhyary]

Going forward to 2021 I have two sizes that would make sense to me.

Size 1:
Front 285/30/19
Rear 295/30/19

Size 2:
Front: 265/35/19
Rear: 275/35/19

It is not clear to me what size is faster, but Size 1 feel and looks better.

I have MPSS 295/30/19 285/30/19 in stock so I will be testing that size.

I will have to purchase MPSS 265 275 if I want to compare apples to apples but that is expensive.

I can also purchase 265 275 PS91 to test the size, and easy on the wallet, but it won't be a true comparison.

I have a very good results at Palmer on 275/35/19 Ecsta V720 and 275/30/19 FFI500.

But found no real benefits in running the 275/30/19 size and will discontinue the effort on that size.

Related to the 275/30/19 size, I learned a bit about the relationship between tire pressure and load and the nice thing about 285/30 and the 265/35 is that you can run them on lower PSI hot which improve traction.

You can see from the info below why the 275/30 /19 is not ideal.

OEM Size (245/35R19 XL) Load Capacity: 1237 lbs. @ 35 psi.
New Size (265/35R19 XL) Load Capacity: 1261 lbs. @ 30 psi.
New Size (275/30R19 XL) Load Capacity: 1257 lbs. @ 32 psi.
New Size (285/30R19 XL) Load Capacity: 1261 lbs. @ 30 psi.

Rear:
OEM Size (265/35R19 XL) Load Capacity: 1459 lbs. @ 36 psi.
New Size (275/35R19 XL) Load Capacity: 1488 lbs. @ 34 psi.
New Size (295/30R19 XL) Load Capacity: 1488 lbs. @ 34 psi.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by rhyary

Going forward to 2021 I have two sizes that would make sense to me.

Size 1:
Front 285/30/19
Rear 295/30/19

Size 2:
Front: 265/35/19
Rear: 275/35/19

It is not clear to me what size is faster, but Size 1 feel and looks better.

I have MPSS 295/30/19 285/30/19 in stock so I will be testing that size.

I will have to purchase MPSS 265 275 if I want to compare apples to apples but that is expensive.

I can also purchase 265 275 PS91 to test the size, and easy on the wallet, but it won't be a true comparison.

I have a very good results at Palmer on 275/35/19 Ecsta V720 and 275/30/19 FFI500.

But found no real benefits in running the 275/30/19 size and will discontinue the effort on that size.

Related to the 275/30/19 size, I learned a bit about the relationship between tire pressure and load and the nice thing about 285/30 and the 265/35 is that you can run them on lower PSI hot which improve traction.

You can see from the info below why the 275/30 /19 is not ideal.

OEM Size (245/35R19 XL) Load Capacity: 1237 lbs. @ 35 psi.
New Size (265/35R19 XL) Load Capacity: 1261 lbs. @ 30 psi.
New Size (275/30R19 XL) Load Capacity: 1257 lbs. @ 32 psi.
New Size (285/30R19 XL) Load Capacity: 1261 lbs. @ 30 psi.

Rear:
OEM Size (265/35R19 XL) Load Capacity: 1459 lbs. @ 36 psi.
New Size (275/35R19 XL) Load Capacity: 1488 lbs. @ 34 psi.
New Size (295/30R19 XL) Load Capacity: 1488 lbs. @ 34 psi.

So for 2021 you're sticking with 19" again?

[dparm]

Just curious, do you have a spreadsheet or something that puts all the lap time, performance, cost, etc. data on a single pane of glass?

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by dparm

Just curious, do you have a spreadsheet or something that puts all the lap time, performance, cost, etc. data on a single pane of glass?

I don't.
Perhaps this could be a winter project.

But having a whole season behind me, I can draw some helpful conclusions.

Strictly speaking about dry trackday. Strictly speaking 3600Lbs car, Strictly speaking about 19" wheels. Basically E92 M3.

Categorically the main difference among tires is slick or max performance.

All other factored differences are, while technically correct, are mainly noise.

Among the max performance, I found no real evidence that a $200 tire like a PS91 is significantly inferior to all the $300-400 tires

There is no evidence that mixing tire manufactures front and back make a difference.

More care must be taken, to make sure tires are at operating temps. Also common sense must be used and the stickier tire must be on the rear.

Track surface is a big big factor in tire selection.
I destroyed in one day Cup2, Corsa, R7, MPS4S at NYST. It is not forgiving to a soft tire.
On the other hand a PS91 lasted 3 trackdays at NYST.

Buying an expensive tire cheaper on eBay proved to be unnecessary. Buying a used Cup2 for $200 has not proven to be beneficial compare to buying a $200 brand new sticker PS91 any day. Caveat is that PS91 285/30/19 is just as good as Cup2 265/35/19 counting lap times and longevity.

Keep in mind that my style is to maximize track time. Given the opportunity of an open trackday. I will run laps until I am out of gas. I have seen others on the same open trackday spending most of the time at the paddock. Not me. I rather drive than sit.

Also, another very important factor is pace. I have seen many cars on MPS4S last multiple trackdays when going at leisure pace. So tires performance and longevity is directly related to lap time.

Since I have most experience at NYST, I will use that as an example. A normal car ~3500Lbs in the advance group will do 1:42-1:45. At that pace all max performance tires will do well. And slicks won't even be up to temperature.

Once you go below 1:40, things change drastically. This is why it is so hard to talk about tires. Things happening in a non linear way.


So while I don't have a spreadsheet with all the information in one place. I have enough data to draw conclusions about next year.

[rhyary]

Here is the list of tires I tried and liked in the 265/35/19 275/35/19

PS91 - $722
FFI500 - $890
RE- 71R - $1240
R888R - $1319
MPSS - $1322
ADO8R - $1367
MPSCup2 $1591

The MPS4S is also available but I prefer the MPSS

You can see the PS91 comes with free track day :-)

[rhyary]

My favorite sizes are Front 285/30/19 and rear 295/30

PS91 $782
MPSS $1352
P Zero Corsa 60 UTQG $1486

I really liked the Proxa RR 295/30/19
So paired with a 285/30

Rear RR 295/30/19 = $511 paired with 285/30/19

PS91 - $889 (tried and liked)
FFI500 - $1024
MPSS - $1177
PZero Corsa 60 UTQG $1204

As much as I liked the RR and its price, I did not see a significant advantage compares to 295/30 MPSS or Ecsta V720 275/35.

So I don't see a compelling reason to use it and mix and much.

The key to that would be how the PS91 295/30/19 performs. I don't have this datum yet

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by rhyary

My favorite sizes are Front 285/30/19 and rear 295/30

PS91 $782
MPSS $1352
P Zero Corsa 60 UTQG $1486

I really liked the Proxa RR 295/30/19
So paired with a 285/30

Rear RR 295/30/19 = $511 paired with 285/30/19

PS91 - $889 (tried and liked)
FFI500 - $1024
MPSS - $1177
PZero Corsa 60 UTQG $1204

As much as I liked the RR and its price, I did not see a significant advantage compares to 295/30 MPSS or Ecsta V720 275/35.

So I don't see a compelling reason to use it and mix and much.

The key to that would be how the PS91 295/30/19 performs. I don't have this datum yet

I don't understand this statement? What advantage didn't you see?

"As much as I liked the RR and its price, I did not see a significant advantage compares to 295/30 MPSS or Ecsta V720 275/35"

I know we're beating a dead horse because you're adamant about 19" tire experiments, but for the sake of experimentation try:

Square 18x10, and 275/35 Hankook RS4. Those tires are $245 a tire... They'll be faster and will be longer wearing than the PS91.

Plus, you can then refocus your analytical mind to reviewing your driving data and improving on technique. Isn't that the goal?

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by DRLane

I don't understand this statement? What advantage didn't you see?

"As much as I liked the RR and its price, I did not see a significant advantage compares to 295/30 MPSS or Ecsta V720 275/35"

I know we're beating a dead horse because you're adamant about 19" tire experiments, but for the sake of experimentation try:

Square 18x10, and 275/35 Hankook RS4. Those tires are $245 a tire... They'll be faster and will be longer wearing than the PS91.

Plus, you can then refocus your analytical mind to reviewing your driving data and improving on technique. Isn't that the goal?

He can't run 18" wheels with his brakes. He's stuck using 19's.

That said, the RS4's come in a 275/35R19 - worth a try imo.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by tsk94

He can't run 18" wheels with his brakes. He's stuck using 19's.

That said, the RS4's come in a 275/35R19 - worth a try imo.

Well that's a bummer, but could be worth the investment to different setup to simplify downstream. Running the M2C brakes?

275/35/19 is 26.4 in diameter. It would super close?

[rhyary]

I can walk and chew gum at the same time.
I can analyze my tires and my driving in the same season. I am working with Races360 on on my driving and others are also contributing to my skills.

The RS4 are indeed good, but good enough to go to 18" wheels?. Not that 18" clear my brakes.

You don't really have the evidence that 18" would be any better for HPDE then 19".

Frequently the argument for 18" would be lower cost. So let's compare:

PS91 295 285 19" @ $782
RS4 4 x 275/35/18 @ $980

So not saving money here
I get it, they last longer but do they? by how much?

About the RR, I was able to get 6 stickers for $200/tire last winter, So I can't say no to that if that become available again

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by tsk94

He can't run 18" wheels with his brakes. He's stuck using 19's.

That said, the RS4's come in a 275/35R19 - worth a try imo.

The RS4 indeed comes in 275/35/19 and 245/35/19 can fit the rear but for $320 and 290 respectively

full set of RS4 245 and 275 is $1230. there goes a free track day.

[rhyary]

@DRLane , not trying to give you a hard time, thanks for reading and commenting on this thread.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by rhyary

I can walk and chew gum at the same time.
I can analyze my tires and my driving in the same season. I am working with Races360 on on my driving and others are also contributing to my skills.

The RS4 are indeed good, but good enough to go to 18" wheels?. Not that 18" clear my brakes.

You don't really have the evidence that 18" would be any better for HPDE then 19".

Frequently the argument for 18" would be lower cost. So let's compare:

PS91 295 285 19" @ $782
RS4 4 x 275/35/18 @ $980

So not saving money here
I get it, they last longer but do they? by how much?

About the RR, I was able to get 6 stickers for $200/tire last winter, So I can't say no to that if that become available again

I'm sure you can do both but can we agree that less variables = more insightful testing and thus learnings? I apologize if my post came off criticizing

What is unique to HPDE that's different than all other motorsports except likely less time on track and at slower speeds?

You're right, I don't have data. But you're the tire data king! Why not add to your analysis? Regarding price shouldn't it be $ per lap or track hour for an actual comparison?

How of curiosity, which coach are you working with at Racer360?

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by DRLane

Well that's a bummer, but could be worth the investment to different setup to simplify downstream. Running the M2C brakes?

275/35/19 is 26.4 in diameter. It would super close?

I don't know specifically, but I'm sure he could raise his ride height a touch to make it work just to try.

I'd rather run 275 square with the front slightly higher (could raise the rear as well to maintain the same rake), then run 245/275.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by DRLane

I'm sure you can do both but can we agree that less variables = more insightful testing and thus learnings? I apologize if my post came off criticizing

What is unique to HPDE that's different than all other motorsports except likely less time on track and at slower speeds?

You're right, I don't have data. But you're the tire data king! Why not add to your analysis? Regarding price shouldn't it be $ per lap or track hour for an actual comparison?

How of curiosity, which coach are you working with at Racer360?

Dion

Unfortunately as much fun as it has been testing all these tires, my next season will narrow the data gathering into two sizes and perhaps two or three tires.

Also because I am off the eBay idea, I am not be experimenting with tires at full cost.

Of course if a tire company want to sponsor my efforts I will have to reconsider

The 265/35/19 275/35/19 has a lot of options as well as the 245/35/19 variation.

Bottom line, I really like the 285 295 setup and only my curiosity is driving me to the 265 275 direction (That and the real urge to try the RE-71R so @SYT_SHADOW be nice to me when I am at WGI)

[b4hand]

I feel your next data point should be how long a tire lasts front/rear at a given cost. You like the ps91 and got 3 track days, but what if rs4's went for 5 track days? Also a spreadsheet would simplify the calculations.

I think we all kinda thought you were crazy mixing tires and such, but you have gotten a good bit of data that is quite unique and it is worth sharing I feel.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by tsk94

I don't know specifically, but I'm sure he could raise his ride height a touch to make it work just to try.

I'd rather run 275 square with the front slightly higher (could raise the rear as well to maintain the same rake), then run 245/275.

The 265/35/19 is already polishing the inner fenders. for 275 I will have to raise the car enough that it will be detrimental for the cause.
Especially if I am planning on high speed WGI

[dparm]

Originally Posted by b4hand

I feel your next data point should be how long a tire lasts front/rear at a given cost. You like the ps91 and got 3 track days, but what if rs4's went for 5 track days? Also a spreadsheet would simplify the calculations.

I think we all kinda thought you were crazy mixing tires and such, but you have gotten a good bit of data that is quite unique and it is worth sharing I feel.

That's what I was getting at. What's the cost per minute of track time for each tire, or whatever. Also, how many seconds of lap time am I buying with that more expensive tire.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by b4hand

I feel your next data point should be how long a tire lasts front vs rear at a given cost. You like the ps91 and got 3 track days, but what if rs4's went for 5 track days? Also a spreadsheet would simplify the calculations.

I think we all kinda thought you were crazy mixing tires and such, but you have gotten a good bit of data that is quite unique and it is worth sharing I feel.

My trackdays are somewhat unique compares to most I see. I am first in line and last to leave.

At LRP I am running two sessions per hour
So from 1pm -5pm I do 8 x 20min - all on as fast as I can go. That is 40min every hour. So it is two trackdays in one.

At Palmer I did also double sessions per hour So some sessions are 25 min. So I will run 2 x 25 back to back

At NYST we do 7x20min but by the end of the day if the track go open, I will run for a straight 40min or more if I have gas.

I can look at my AiM data and calculate all the information, but it gets diminishing value.

For example, by the time I am done at NYST, I am on 1:42 pace which is much easier on the tires but they also almost gone. So just because I can go another day on 1:45, does not mean I don't put on a fresh set of tires.

So I don't know how to capture that kind of info into a spreadsheet. The pace is very important for tire speak.

I can tell you anecdotally, It is a lot easier to replace a set of PS91 than an expensive set of tires where both already on 1:42 but the tires are not on the cords :-)