Official S65 Rod Bearing Condition Example Thread

[Willem3]

Originally Posted by schlichtm3

Why Not?
I have no bad experiences with OE Bearings
on e46 and e91 BMWs (no M‘s) that have been replaced due to wear and tear.

Therefore I go again with OE and when they hold 100k again I am very satisfied, which I expect. I have not seen any BE shells over 100k yet.

I have also new OEM bearings.

In Europe they never install aftermarket bearing to my understanding, they have all good experience with OEM replacements.

Job costs €1600,- with new mounts, every 80-100k KM this is acceptable for me.
Price is the same as a cambelt change on a Audi V8

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by gilberjj

No clue, but I was curious myself. I need to speak to G-Power anyway, so I’ll ask.

Looks like the LCI 702/703 shells. No marking on the back side?

[schlichtm3]

No Problem with OEM Bearings when you change after 80-100 tkm, and driving with no limit on Autobahn, Nürburgring, Hockenheim

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by schlichtm3

Why Not?
I have no bad experiences with OE Bearings
on e46 and e91 BMWs (no M‘s) that have been replaced due to wear and tear.

Therefore I go again with OE and when they hold 100k again I am very satisfied, which I expect. I have not seen any BE shells over 100k yet.

But this makes no statistical sense. By using OE shells, there is a statistical chance that you install thicker shells then those you removed. In this case, the second set of shells will be at greater risk of premature wear. Therefore, the 100K interval no longer is valid. The opposite is also true - you might put thinner shells in and make things better. But there is ZERO way to actually measure this without disassembling the engine.

Are you changing the shells because you agree with the data that the shells are too tight? Or are you changing the shells for some other reason? If it is the former, than what rational did you use to choose OE? If the latter, please let us know the reason.

Cheers,

[schlichtm3]

Of course my bearing have also worn out, see photo in the previous article from me.

But I decided to use OEM bearings for the following reasons.

1. all workshops in Germany, which offer bearings service and change bearing almost daily on S65 and V10 BMW´s, use OEM bearings.

https://www.facebook.com/AulitzkyTuning/
https://www.facebook.com/CM-Motorsport-112137176071886/
https://www.facebook.com/tpsperformance/
https://www.facebook.com/h2motors.de/

I also received the following answer from www.burkhart-engineering.com,
why OEM and not BE are used:

We currently work with OEM BMW bearings, we and our customers are very satisfied. Unfortunately we have no experience with the bearings from the BE / USA.

2. I did not find any photos or information showing BE bearings after 100 tkm.

3. there are many S65s in the world, which run well over 100 tkm with the first OEM bearings and have no problems "until now", or in Europe again OEM bearings are used and have no problems until now. I can't find anything from BE Bearings.

It may be that the BE bearings actually solve the problem, but here in Germany or Europe the BE bearings are hardly known and a practical proof by photos etc. at about 100 tkm, that the BE bearings are really better, I have not found, if there is information, I am very interested.

[pbonsalb]

There is not yet any 100km or 60k mile testing results for aftermarket bearings. In time, there will be.

New stock bearings should be in about the same condition at the same mileage as the stock bearings that were removed. The bearings on some motors look great at 100km or 60k miles and look terrible on other motors at that mileage. Most of the pictures show prematurely worn bearings.

I installed new stock bearings on 2014, but extra clearance bearings were not available then. Today, I would buy extra clearance bearings. Also, the bmw bearings sold today are harder and could be more likely to damage the crank if worn excessively.

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by schlichtm3

Of course my bearing have also worn out, see photo in the previous article from me.

But I decided to use OEM bearings for the following reasons.

1. all workshops in Germany, which offer bearings service and change bearing almost daily on S65 and V10 BMW´s, use OEM bearings.

https://www.facebook.com/AulitzkyTuning/
https://www.facebook.com/CM-Motorsport-112137176071886/
https://www.facebook.com/tpsperformance/
https://www.facebook.com/h2motors.de/

I also received the following answer from www.burkhart-engineering.com,
why OEM and not BE are used:

We currently work with OEM BMW bearings, we and our customers are very satisfied. Unfortunately we have no experience with the bearings from the BE / USA.

2. I did not find any photos or information showing BE bearings after 100 tkm.

3. there are many S65s in the world, which run well over 100 tkm with the first OEM bearings and have no problems "until now", or in Europe again OEM bearings are used and have no problems until now. I can't find anything from BE Bearings.

It may be that the BE bearings actually solve the problem, but here in Germany or Europe the BE bearings are hardly known and a practical proof by photos etc. at about 100 tkm, that the BE bearings are really better, I have not found, if there is information, I am very interested.

Not sure about the logic.

1. BE, ACL, VAC will all ship to Europe.

2. BE has not been out long enough AND there really should be no reason to go take out extra clearance bearings once changed (I will not take mine out until a full rebuild in another 150 tKM)

3. The OE bearings have always had problems. This is not a new issue. The VAST majority of OE bearings that are removed show wear indicative of oil starvation while some are clearly very close to catastrophic failure. My OE bearings, shown on the green micro fiber cloth, are some of the best OE that I have seen. But, they still show a unacceptable wear given they were only run for 27 tKM. Additionally, I have attached 3 separate sets of extra clearance bearings that look like bearings should. The single bearing cap being held is BE after 50 tKM. The VAC shells have a description. The caps with damage on bearing 1 is from 24 tMile bearings that had main 1 fail after ~120+ track days.

Again I ask - why did you change your bearings?

Cheers,

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

Not sure about the logic.

1. BE, ACL, VAC will all ship to Europe.

2. BE has not been out long enough AND there really should be no reason to go take out extra clearance bearings once changed (I will not take mine out until a full rebuild in another 150 tKM)

3. The OE bearings have always had problems. This is not a new issue. The VAST majority of OE bearings that are removed show wear indicative of oil starvation while some are clearly very close to catastrophic failure. My OE bearings, shown on the green micro fiber cloth, are some of the best OE that I have seen. But, they still show a unacceptable wear given they were only run for 27 tKM. Additionally, I have attached 3 separate sets of extra clearance bearings that look like bearings should. The single bearing cap being held is BE after 50 tKM. The VAC shells have a description. The caps with damage on bearing 1 is from 24 tMile bearings that had main 1 fail after ~120+ track days.

Again I ask - why did you change your bearings?

Cheers,

What's the point of rehashing this?

schlichtm3 believes the bearings to be a wear item with a 100km interval. For those of us that drank the delicious and well documented BE coolaid, it seems bold.

Shouldn't that be case closed. These bearing debate go in circles into perpetuity. Nothing is ever resolved and this is a bearing conditions thread, not validity thread.

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by DRLane

What's the point of rehashing this?

schlichtm3 believes the bearings to be a wear item with a 100km interval. For those of us that drank the delicious and well documented BE coolaid, it seems bold.

Shouldn't that be case closed. These bearing debate go in circles into perpetuity. Nothing is ever resolved and this is a bearing conditions thread, not validity thread.

Good point. Sorry I derailed the thread. Again.

I just cannot stand people making bold statements such as "If you change the rod bearings <insert random mileage here> that you will be OK." What is that based on? Why?

I think I have a problem...

Cheers,

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

Good point. Sorry I derailed the thread. Again.

I just cannot stand people making bold statements such as "If you change the rod bearings <insert random mileage here> that you will be OK." What is that based on? Why?

I think I have a problem...

Cheers,

I have the same problem

[pbonsalb]

We will know more in a few years when more replacement bearings of standard and extra clearance have been removed for another change. This will benefit the 3rd through 10th owners of these cars who buy them cheap with 150k plus miles.

[schlichtm3]

Why I switched the bearings?
Because here in Germany it is said:
"If you don't want to have a capital engine damage, change at the latest after 100 tkm".

I have done that now and now I have a better feeling, also with the OEM bearings.

I don't deny that there are probably better bearings VAC or BE, but for me there is too little experience with these bearings.

@Scharbag - If I had seen you, your experience and photos before, I would have switched to BE or VAC bearings.

Now the OEM bearings are in and if I should drive the car another 100 tkm,
I will use VAC or BE.

I thank you for your time and explanations.

I am very happy about such a lively discussion,
because something like this does not happen in German forums.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by schlichtm3

Why I switched the bearings?
Because here in Germany it is said:
"If you don't want to have a capital engine damage, change at the latest after 100 tkm".

I have done that now and now I have a better feeling, also with the OEM bearings.

I don't deny that there are probably better bearings VAC or BE, but for me there is too little experience with these bearings.

@Scharbag - If I had seen you, your experience and photos before, I would have switched to BE or VAC bearings.

Now the OEM bearings are in and if I should drive the car another 100 tkm,
I will use VAC or BE.

I thank you for your time and explanations.

I am very happy about such a lively discussion,
because something like this does not happen in German forums.

Hi schlichtm3, interesting to hear that there isn't much talk about the S65/S85 bearings in Germany, where there assumingly are quite a few cars. Even in our fairly small S65 community (Sweden) there is certainly chatting, and M3Cutters in the UK seem to get their share too. Would indicate less engine/bearing issues there?

Cheers

[schlichtm3]

Oh no, then I have given a wrong impression that the topic is also one here and we also discussed a lot.

But hardly anybody does it himself here, but in qualified workshops (see above the FB links). Some owners drive 500 km and more to have the bearings made there. But these garages all use the OEM bearings.

[Blindside_137]

Here are mine. Second owner. Bought at 63k miles last year and currently at 69.1k. Thankfully I bought the BE bearings back in December and had them available for the service. Had BE bolts from turner after the set I received from M power was an unknown ARP spec. That's another story...

Service history on my car was unknown but it was such a clean looking example I knew I had to have it. The bearings aren't terrible but also not good. I'm glad they are replaced. The peace of mind feels great.

Also a fun day since my dad dropped me off in his M4. So we cruised some of the twisties on the way home.

[Fezza]

2010 MY11 @ just under 125K miles

[WangTa]

Here is mine @ 39k miles. 2008 e90. Have owned since new. Haven’t driven the last 3 years as I’ve been fearful of having a catastrophic engine failure. Finally was able to find time to get this done at MRF in socal during this lockdown, and glad I did. OEM bearings replaced with Clevite/Mahle bearings (MRF's standard kit), ARP bolts and also had the engine mounts replaced at the same time. Pretty ugly top shells. Odd given I’m never tracked the car - religiously done oil changes and always allowed the car to warm up.

Always found it odd that this car requires this service to be initiated by owners and my '01 e46 m3 was recalled for the same issue directly by BMW.

[RoyalFlushness]

2008 E90 Pre LCI (2nd Owner)
Oil changes every 5k
86,000 Miles

Replaced with VAC Motorsport bearings with 0.25 undersizing / ARP Bolts / new motor mounts. Glad I did them.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by wfdeacon88

OEM bearings can go boom at any interval... people have posted <15K OEM bearings spinning. BE have shown zero wear as they should in several cases over 30K. Most OEM show significant wear at any mileage, then it comes down to a game of roulette. but... to each their own!

Every motor has different tolerances. Thus why some engines last perfectly fine with OEM bearing while others don't.

If his motor was fine at 100k miles on the original bearings, then chances are he'll be fine for a significant amount of time on new OEM bearings - the tolerances between bearings is quite small.

BE bearings have also shown wear. There are a few examples of engines with BE bearings that have failed if you do your research.

Engine failure from bearings comes down to more than just bearing clearance. Rod journal and rod bore clearance varies on every S65 produced. Hence why some engines with stock bearings can see 0 issues if the tolerances on the other aspects is at the higher end (more clearance) despite the lower clearance OEM bearings compared to something like BE. Conversely, if the rod bore and rod journal tolerances are at the low end (less clearance), issues with even increased clearance bearing like BE could still lead to issues.

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by tsk94

Every motor has different tolerances. Thus why some engines last perfectly fine with OEM bearing while others don't.

If his motor was fine at 100k miles on the original bearings, then chances are he'll be fine for a significant amount of time on new OEM bearings - the tolerances between bearings is quite small.

Define fine? We rearely see 100K bearings come out of S65 motors with "normal" bearing wear as defined by Clevite, King, ACL and Glyco.

Originally Posted by tsk94

BE bearings have also shown wear.

Please show us some examples of abnormal or excessive wear on BE, VAC or other proper clearance bearings.

Originally Posted by tsk94

There are a few examples of engines with BE bearings that have failed if you do your research.

If you are referring to the failed engines with BE bearings due to improper installation, then I am not sure the above statement is correct. Here is what BE was willing to do: "The BE partners decided, should an actual failure be attributed to the BE Bearings themselves, that BE would be willing to rebuild the engine at their Los Angeles distributor's shop, plus the replacement costs of all bearings (rods and mains) of any brand chosen by the car's owner." Unfortunately, some humans are asshats, so I am not sure if this is still the case...

Originally Posted by tsk94

Engine failure from bearings comes down to more than just bearing clearance. Rod journal and rod bore clearance varies on every S65 produced. Hence why some engines with stock bearings can see 0 issues if the tolerances on the other aspects is at the higher end (more clearance) despite the lower clearance OEM bearings compared to something like BE. Conversely, if the rod bore and rod journal tolerances are at the low end (less clearance), issues with even increased clearance bearing like BE could still lead to issues.

Yup. That said, we are all able to correct for the inadequate bearing journal clearance for a reasonable price with parts from King, VAC, ACL and BE. All of the other issues require an engine-out rebuild to correct, which is likely an untenable solution for the vast majority of S65 owners.

Cheers,

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

Define fine? We rearely see 100K bearings come out of S65 motors with "normal" bearing wear as defined by Clevite, King, ACL and Glyco.



Please show us some examples of abnormal or excessive wear on BE, VAC or other proper clearance bearings.



If you are referring to the failed engines with BE bearings due to improper installation, then I am not sure the above statement is correct. Here is what BE was willing to do: "The BE partners decided, should an actual failure be attributed to the BE Bearings themselves, that BE would be willing to rebuild the engine at their Los Angeles distributor's shop, plus the replacement costs of all bearings (rods and mains) of any brand chosen by the car's owner." Unfortunately, some humans are asshats, so I am not sure if this is still the case...



Yup. That said, we are all able to correct for the inadequate bearing journal clearance for a reasonable price with parts from King, VAC, ACL and BE. All of the other issues require an engine-out rebuild to correct, which is likely an untenable solution for the vast majority of S65 owners.

Cheers,

Do your own research. I've done mine. Not every failure is documented online and whether or not improper installation played a role is difficult to determine.

I'm not saying aftermarket rod bearings aren't worthwhile doing by any means. But the notion that is spread around, particularly this forum, that if it's not addressed it's only a matter of time before the engine would fail is completely inaccurate and vastly blown out of proportion.

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by tsk94

Do your own research. I've done mine.

Please share the failed engines with BE, VAC, ACL, King etc. bearings as more information is always welcome.

Cheers,