Track forum general chit chat.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

he's limited by wheel size because of his brake size, so i fully understand that part of his equation. but the notion of 19's vs 18's is just not up for debate.
he has brembo carbon brakes with fi-r wheels, by the way.

Which again, is looking for a problem where there isn't one.

AP and PFC have bbks that fit under 18" wheels and require pad changes every blue moon. And don't fade no matter what you do with them.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Which again, is looking for a problem where there isn't one.

AP and PFC have bbks that fit under 18" wheels and require pad changes every blue moon. And don't fade no matter what you do with them.

I know, we've discussed in his other thread.

[Bartledoo]

My response opened a redundant can of worms, and I'm sorry for that. The only reason I responded is because he uses words like cheap and economic a lot in reference to his tire selection. I just don't see how these tires can be considered cheap based on their life, nor do I see much value based on the combination of performance and life (I'm not really buying that you can only get two days out of ANY tire). With his response that he likes his setup and if he wanted something different he would buy a GT3, it seems like he is not actually concerned about economic choices. So, I'll let him waste his cash in peace.

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

My response opened a redundant can of worms, and I'm sorry for that. The only reason I responded is because he uses words like cheap and economic a lot in reference to his tire selection. I just don't see how these tires can be considered cheap based on their life, nor do I see much value based on the combination of performance and life (I'm not really buying that you can only get two days out of ANY tire). With his response that he likes his setup and if he wanted something different he would buy a GT3, it seems like he is not actually concerned about economic choices. So, I'll let him waste his cash in peace.

When you're doing 7 sessions of hot laps, the biggest differences between a street tire and a slick is lap times and consistency. An 18 inch NT01 or a Pirelli slick isn't going to last significantly longer beyond a weekend compared to the street tires he's trying. That's where the cheap/economic part comes in.

Personally, I would be trying the hard compound all-season tires like Michelin A/S 3+ or Continental DWS 06 to see if I can get more sessions out of them.

[Richbot]

All season tires do not last longer on track than a good harder-compound summer max performance tire like the Hankook RS4 or whatnot. Watching people chase their tails on this is entertaining, but it ends the same. Unless you're so far below the limits of the car on all-seasons that they are never hot enough to matter, all-seasons will chunk and die horrible deaths on track on a heavy, fast car like ours.

See also, trying to track on the Michelin PS4S. Sure, you *can*. But you sure as heck won't save much money on tires if you're at or near the limit much

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Ximian

When you're doing 7 sessions of hot laps, the biggest differences between a street tire and a slick is lap times and consistency. An 18 inch NT01 or a Pirelli slick isn't going to last significantly longer beyond a weekend compared to the street tires he's trying. That's where the cheap/economic part comes in.

Personally, I would be trying the hard compound all-season tires like Michelin A/S 3+ or Continental DWS 06 to see if I can get more sessions out of them.

So far the tire that lasts longest for me at a fast pace is actually the bfg R1

[turbo_joe]

Funny how he kills tires in two days yet my NT01's lasted 10 track days last year plus 7 autox events and still had an event or two before they corded. Typical day is 2-3 hours of track time at a mid level pace for me.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by turbo_joe

Funny how he kills tires in two days yet my NT01's lasted 10 track days last year plus 7 autox events and still had an event or two before they corded. Typical day is 2-3 hours of track time at a mid level pace for me.

There is a significant difference in wear between LRP and NYST. So I can only conclude that not all tracks are the same.

As a comparison, an F80 M3 was down to cords of MPSCup2 in one day. He was running a 1:40 pace.

You all could be right about everything you say. I am simply sharing my experiences, and will continue to do so.

I think I have wasted everyone's time enough on the general chit-chat thread. I will stick to reporting my data on my HPDE 2020 season.

[Richbot]

Wear is extremely track-dependent, I wouldn't read too much into it.

My spec wrecker ford can, purportedly, get 14+ sessions out of a set of the speci Hoosier R7-ish tire. I've done it, lots of people have done it. However, At my home track (where I frequently run at or below the track record for the class deep into a session, so I'm not just out there just hamfisting the crap out of it too badly and blowing tires off the car), 6 is about when you need to switch sides because it eats outside tires so badly, and at 8 sessions they're effectively done as at least one will be down to the nylon in at least one spot. Flipping side to side slows the car down a bit for a session, so we avoid that, which doesn't help, but still. Basically cutting the life of the tires in half just because they're at a busy track with some banking and old pavement vs. a more flowing, open track that lets the tires have a break once ina while.

From what I understand, NYST is pretty busy, especially in a fast, heavy car.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by rhyary

I think I have wasted everyone's time enough on the general chit-chat thread. I will stick to reporting my data on my HPDE 2020 season.

I don't think you've wasted anyone's time. This thread is for track day discussions, and that's exactly what we're doing.

I personally enjoy the feedback you provide on different tire setups/combinations. While a bit unconventional, it is interesting to read. I hope I didn't come off as condescending, it wasn't my intention. In fact, I believe everyone responding to you has your best interests in mind.

I believe from other posts and threads I've read you are restricted to 19" wheels due to your BBK. Since 18" wheels are literally not an option for you that's completely fine. However, what is your logic and goal with running these 'cheap' summer tires vs. an r-compound? It seems like the majority of the time you're doing track days on street tires, and often mismatched front and rear tires. While a good r-compound will be significantly more expensive, they will last much longer and the $/lap might be the same or even less depending on the tires.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by tsk94

I don't think you've wasted anyone's time. This thread is for track day discussions, and that's exactly what we're doing.

I personally enjoy the feedback you provide on different tire setups/combinations. While a bit unconventional, it is interesting to read. I hope I didn't come off as condescending, it wasn't my intention. In fact, I believe everyone responding to you has your best interests in mind.

I believe from other posts and threads I've read you are restricted to 19" wheels due to your BBK. Since 18" wheels are literally not an option for you that's completely fine. However, what is your logic and goal with running these 'cheap' summer tires vs. an r-compound? It seems like the majority of the time you're doing track days on street tires, and often mismatched front and rear tires. While a good r-compound will be significantly more expensive, they will last much longer and the $/lap might be the same or even less depending on the tires.

Thank you. i appreciate your note.

I guess I was not clear.
No matter what tires I use, They will last only two days at NYST (14 x 20min sessions)

So the difference will be laptime, and how many laps at a given speed.

If I changed my camber from -3.0 to -3.5, I will not be testing it on 400/tire. I will be doing testing on $120-150 a tire.

[rhyary]

... I believe from other posts and threads I've read you are restricted to 19" wheels due to your BBK. Since 18" wheels are literally not an option for you that's completely fine.
..

The whole thing about 18"
and 19" I consider it more for entertainment between roastbeef and myself.

Imagine roastbeef and myself sitting at a bar and having a beer. The conversation is going, and Roast jab my ribs and says 18", I jab back and say "drilling holes". So just pure entertainment. Not a serious discussion.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by rhyary

Thank you. i appreciate your note.

I guess I was not clear.
No matter what tires I use, They will last only two days at NYST (14 x 20min sessions)

So the difference will be laptime, and how many laptime at a given speed.

If I changed my camber from -3.0 to -3.5, I will not be testing it on 400/tire. I will be doing testing on $120-150 a tire.

Well what tires have you used? As I, and others, have mentioned, I'm quite confident you'd get more then 14 heat cycles out of a NT01/RR/R888R in a reasonable size (not 235's up front like you've tried before). What's the largest tire you can fit up front? R888R's come in a 275, NT01's a 285 and as you know 295 for the RR. I would think that NT01 285 would fit, and certainly the 275 R888R's will.

Why did you increase camber? I suspect it's to either; 1. improve front tire wear. 2. improve front grip/turn in. or 3. a combination of 1 and 2.

If you increased negative camber to improve wear, then I wouldn't think twice about trying a more expensive tire - the wear won't be worse..

Again, all of this is moot if you simply enjoy running on these types of tires and in mismatched combinations. All the power to ya!

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by tsk94

Well what tires have you used? As I, and others, have mentioned, I'm quite confident you'd get more then 14 heat cycles out of a NT01/RR/R888R in a reasonable size (not 235's up front like you've tried before). What's the largest tire you can fit up front? R888R's come in a 275, NT01's a 285 and as you know 295 for the RR. I would think that NT01 285 would fit, and certainly the 275 R888R's will.

Why did you increase camber? I suspect it's to either; 1. improve front tire wear. 2. improve front grip/turn in. or 3. a combination of 1 and 2.

If you increased negative camber to improve wear, then I wouldn't think twice about trying a more expensive tire - the wear won't be worse..

Again, all of this is moot if you simply enjoy running on these types of tires and in mismatched combinations. All the power to ya!

The issue is front grip. So the sizes I tried:
275/30/19
265/30/19
265/35/19
235/35/19

I increased camber because at 1:38-1:35 I was eating the outside of the tire.

So far the tires I ran are:
R888R
RR
R7
Ado8r
MPs4s (few times)
Ecsta 91
FFI500

Fastest R7 265/35/19 - 1:35
second fast RR 235/35/19 - 1:37

after that is the above 100 tread doing high 1:37-1:38

[roastbeef]

@rhyary drilling holes is so much fun, bbs even did it in the spokes of your FI-R wheels!

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by rhyary

The issue is front grip. So the sizes I tried:
275/30/19
265/30/19
265/35/19
235/35/19

I increased camber because at 1:38-1:35 I was eating the outside of the tire.

So far the tires I ran are:
R888R
RR
R7
Ado8r
MPs4s (few times)
Ecsta 91
FFI500

Fastest R7 265/35/19 - 1:35
second fast RR 235/35/19 - 1:37

after that is the above 100 tread doing high 1:37-1:38

Great, thanks for the info.

If you're wearing out the outside, then more camber is the first step. Have you run on -3.5* yet? If so, how was the wear compared to before?

When you mentioned you only get a maximum of 14 sessions out a tire, is that including running a square setup? If you're wearing the outside fronts, being able to swap them onto the rear after a few sessions will prolong wear. Also, with R compounds like the R888R, RR and NT01, whether you are wearing the inside or outside, you can flip the tire on the rim to further extend life.

[Bimmer Barney]

Anyone in this thread attach the GT3 brake cooling wings? They're cheap, either work or do nothing (no downside) and because racecar I was thinking about installing them.

In case you don't know what I'm talking about:
https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1406400

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by tsk94

Great, thanks for the info.

If you're wearing out the outside, then more camber is the first step. Have you run on -3.5* yet? If so, how was the wear compared to before?

When you mentioned you only get a maximum of 14 sessions out a tire, is that including running a square setup? If you're wearing the outside fronts, being able to swap them onto the rear after a few sessions will prolong wear. Also, with R compounds like the R888R, RR and NT01, whether you are wearing the inside or outside, you can flip the tire on the rim to further extend life.

I have ran in 2917, 2018 and 2019 -1.8, -2.5, -3.0 and now for 2020 I ran -3.5 camber.

The first two days 2020 I was on FFI500
Tomorrow I will be on Cup2 265/35/19.

I based on 90 trackdays, I don't see much value in swapping rear to front. The rear last enough trackdays that I want them replaced. The fronts are toast after two days and I don't want them on the rear. I don't want to spend the money to flip them on the same rim. Not worth it.

I run first day, then swap left to right, run second day then to the garbage they go. If they don't last a whole third day, then it is not worth the hassle.

Anyone that is talking up the NT01, come to NYST, Do 1:38 and show me how long that tire last with a 3400Lbs car. Then I believe you.

[Bartledoo]

Hey rhyary, what are your spring rates and anti-roll bar setups? Just curious.

Also, yet another "too bad they don't offer it", but it is too bad they only make RS4 in 275/35r19 and not 30 aspect ratio. No way those could be killed by 14 sessions, unless driving them over an active lava flow like the old hilux test.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

Hey rhyary, what are your spring rates and anti-roll bar setups? Just curious.

750 front and 900 rear
Sways are 50% stiffer than stock

[M3MPH1S]

Super late notice, idk if it was posted already, but free Ross Bentley webinar happening now (lead-follow instructing)

https://event.webinarjam.com/register/15/pq1gvhp


Edit: A recording is supposed to be posted on MSF's website tomorrow (along with some notes)

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by rhyary

I have ran in 2917, 2018 and 2019 -1.8, -2.5, -3.0 and now for 2020 I ran -3.5 camber.

The first two days 2020 I was on FFI500
Tomorrow I will be on Cup2 265/35/19.

I based on 90 trackdays, I don't see much value in swapping rear to front. The rear last enough trackdays that I want them replaced. The fronts are toast after two days and I don't want them on the rear. I don't want to spend the money to flip them on the same rim. Not worth it.

This confuses me a bit. If you're happy with your rear tire life, by the sounds of it you replace them before they cord? Why not just extend your front tire life by rotating fronts and rears? If you rotate them middle of the day it sounds like you'd get significantly more use.

The thing to keep in mind is; you say 'no tire will last beyond 14 sessions in this car at this track'. BUT, you put the stipulation of, well I don't and won't rotate a square setup front and rear or flip tires on my wheels. So given this, it may be true that no one would get longer then 14 sessions in this car at the track, but a lot of people don't restrict their tire life in the same way you are.

If you have a very strong preference towards a staggered setup then fair enough. But you seem to use both square and staggered so it seems like a quite easy and simple solution to extend your tire life and give yourself justification to run more expensive, better, tires.