Emissions Readiness + "Stage 2" tunes

[//steve\\]

I picked up my M3 in October of last year and I'm starting to look at tuning options. I would ideally like to run test pipes and remove the OE primaries so that I can run a "Stage 2" tune that makes the most of this.

I live in Georgia and we have to do yearly emissions testing. Because Stage1 tune is for all stock I'm not too worried about it messing with my ability to pass. They don't actually do a tailpipe sniff test, just plug up to ODB and do some kind of scan that checks for readiness monitors. I believe we are allowed to have one fault here and still pass.

Due to the increase in power and overall ability for the engine to breathe better I would really like to remove the primary cats but I have some concern that in doing so and having a tune that really allows me to make the most of it means the car will end up in a state where I can't get the readiness monitors to set and therefore fail emissions. I'd like to find a solution that is more set it and forget it than having to yearly swap the xpipe and tune, then drive around to get readiness set only to have to go back as soon as I pass and re-install the test pipes and tune.

Has anyone been down this road? Am I asking too much here?

I realize I could swap stuff yearly but right now it's a headache I don't feel like dealing with.

[Richbot]

This headache is why I have the AFE catted xpipe and a "stage 1" tune that leaves monitor readiness untouched. I was not willing to risk the annoyance of an OBD monitor readiness issue on test day, (we are a two monitors pending or one "fault" = fail and fix it within x number of days area) hough I installed the AFE fully expecting I might have to remove it before my next test two years later, I was pleasantly surprised it passed just fine with all monitors ready and never threw a code.

The aFe catted X uses 300-cell (as opposed to stock 400-cell, and most HFC cats' 200-cell) in the primary location. I think this is why, I'm simply giving up a few more hp to ride the safe edge of the performance the algorithm is expecting from the cat. The 200-cell cats seem to ride the unsafe edge in that people sometimes report they still throw codes without additional help from extenders or whatnot.

That said, I'm sure there's a way to make this work with TP's and still pass an OBD check especially if your state/jurisdiction doesn't mind a cat monitor readiness status issue. Some areas will just flunk you on the cat monitor pending status because it's the single most important monitor on a car, even if you're "allowed" one fault and still pass, what they really mean is you're allowed to have an EVAP code or something

The aFe isn't perfect, at all, but it's what I recommend to people who want to gain a little sound, lose 9lb and gain 10-15 ish hp over stock without dealing with cat efficiency codes. It's never going to yield the 20-25hp the test pipes do, but it's better than nothing!

[6ixSpd]

I believe there are some tunes that can set one of the two catalyst monitors as ready. you'd have to ask around in a not so direct manner, lol.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by //steve\\

I picked up my M3 in October of last year and I'm starting to look at tuning options. I would ideally like to run test pipes and remove the OE primaries so that I can run a "Stage 2" tune that makes the most of this.

I live in Georgia and we have to do yearly emissions testing. Because Stage1 tune is for all stock I'm not too worried about it messing with my ability to pass. They don't actually do a tailpipe sniff test, just plug up to ODB and do some kind of scan that checks for readiness monitors. I believe we are allowed to have one fault here and still pass.

Due to the increase in power and overall ability for the engine to breathe better I would really like to remove the primary cats but I have some concern that in doing so and having a tune that really allows me to make the most of it means the car will end up in a state where I can't get the readiness monitors to set and therefore fail emissions. I'd like to find a solution that is more set it and forget it than having to yearly swap the xpipe and tune, then drive around to get readiness set only to have to go back as soon as I pass and re-install the test pipes and tune.

Has anyone been down this road? Am I asking too much here?

I realize I could swap stuff yearly but right now it's a headache I don't feel like dealing with.

Deleting primary cats though an xpipe or test pipes makes a large difference in power and sound, but it comes with some drawbacks as you're seeing

Basically you have to swap every year. Other options are getting a tune which forces everything to ready when it's not -very illegal, no one wants to do it, yada yada- or getting O2 extenders/defoulers/mini cats which seem to work.

Another point: test pipes don't allow you to go back to the stock cats without welding. I think someone was doing something to make test pipes accept the cats back in which would make this MUCH easier.

Originally I got the ESS HFC Xpipe as it said it swapped primaries to HFCs and remained emissions compliant. This turned out to be false. It's possible there are other aftermarket solutions that have better quality cats but I think the O2 extender/defouler is a better route.
Or swapping xpipe every year!

[//steve\\]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Deleting primary cats though an xpipe or test pipes makes a large difference in power and sound, but it comes with some drawbacks as you're seeing

Basically you have to swap every year. Other options are getting a tune which forces everything to ready when it's not -very illegal, no one wants to do it, yada yada- or getting O2 extenders/defoulers/mini cats which seem to work.

Another point: test pipes don't allow you to go back to the stock cats without welding. I think someone was doing something to make test pipes accept the cats back in which would make this MUCH easier.

Originally I got the ESS HFC Xpipe as it said it swapped primaries to HFCs and remained emissions compliant. This turned out to be false. It's possible there are other aftermarket solutions that have better quality cats but I think the O2 extender/defouler is a better route.
Or swapping xpipe every year!

The yearly swap just seems annoying to me. If it was just swapping some parts that would be one thing but having to actually reload a tune and then go do the drive cycle thing only to just go back and remove everything afterwards is what chaps me. When I put the car back to stock recently I had a pretty easy time with the drive cycle so it's not difficult but I just don't want to do it. I think I was able to do it within 3-4 drives.

I'm most tempted to just pick up test pipes and have the ends of them and OE primaries setup with a V-band along with the remaining X-pipe so that all I actually need to swap is the TP/cat parts. That to me right now seems like the only way I'm willing to deal with it. A total replacement of the X-pipe also means having to store this giant OE part which is also a pain with the space I have.

I also realize the only way I might find the answer I'm looking for is to just go do it and see what happens, just hoping a few others have been down this road before.


Realistically, all other things being fairly equal what's the power difference between a Stage 1 tune meant for all stock vs a Stage 2 where the primaries are removed? 10hp may not be worth the hassle to me but if it's 20+ that's fairly compelling.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by //steve\\

The yearly swap just seems annoying to me. If it was just swapping some parts that would be one thing but having to actually reload a tune and then go do the drive cycle thing only to just go back and remove everything afterwards is what chaps me. When I put the car back to stock recently I had a pretty easy time with the drive cycle so it's not difficult but I just don't want to do it. I think I was able to do it within 3-4 drives.

I'm most tempted to just pick up test pipes and have the ends of them and OE primaries setup with a V-band along with the remaining X-pipe so that all I actually need to swap is the TP/cat parts. That to me right now seems like the only way I'm willing to deal with it. A total replacement of the X-pipe also means having to store this giant OE part which is also a pain with the space I have.

I also realize the only way I might find the answer I'm looking for is to just go do it and see what happens, just hoping a few others have been down this road before.


Realistically, all other things being fairly equal what's the power difference between a Stage 1 tune meant for all stock vs a Stage 2 where the primaries are removed? 10hp may not be worth the hassle to me but if it's 20+ that's fairly compelling.

The vband is a good idea, that would make swapping quite fast

Once you've done the drivecycle a few times you know how to do it. I can complete it in a single 20 min drive.

It's 20hp, extremely noticeable. I wouldn't bother with a tune if I could not do test pipes.
http://www.rightfootdown.com/cars/th...ns-e92-bmw-m3/

Lots of us have been down that road. I'm down that road with 2 cars and it's a pain in the ass, but still worth it

[derbo]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The vband is a good idea, that would make swapping quite fast

Once you've done the drivecycle a few times you know how to do it. I can complete it in a single 20 min drive.

It's 20hp, extremely noticeable. I wouldn't bother with a tune if I could not do test pipes.
http://www.rightfootdown.com/cars/th...ns-e92-bmw-m3/

Lots of us have been down that road. I'm down that road with 2 cars and it's a pain in the ass, but still worth it

https://motoiq.com/project-e90-m3-pa...xhaust-tips/3/

Best idea imo for test pipes.

Pros:
Cheaper than xpipe by at least 50% depending on labor costs in your area.
Gains are not 100% the same as x pipe but I expect it's at least 60-80% of the gains?
Less stock hardware to keep in storage (this is a major plus for me with lack of room for a giant ass x pipe)
Easy to swap back stock cat with vbands

Cons:
Welding is only as good as the welder
Extra work


I vote for vbands Steve!

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by derbo

https://motoiq.com/project-e90-m3-pa...xhaust-tips/3/

Best idea imo for test pipes.


I vote for vbands Steve!

Great article link, I was looking for it earlier as they did pretty decent before/after testing

[derbo]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Great article link, I was looking for it earlier as they did pretty decent before/after testing

Yup! I know its years ago but its a still a great article.

The Test Pipes gave us an average 17 lb/ft of torque gain across the entire RPM band with a maximum gain of 24 whp at 6,300rpm, and 26 lb/ft of torque gain at a very low 2,900rpm!
When we first fired up the car with the Macht Schnell “Bypass Track Pipes” installed, I was expecting to get a deep bellowing sound but to my surprise, at start-up and idle, the exhaust was no different from stock. Even after revving the motor to 3-4,000rpm, it remained quiet and about the same as stock. The cabin noise from inside the car was virtually unchanged both cruising around town and highway driving. Even at full throttle in the mid-range didn’t seem much louder than stock but I was surprised to hear my cameraman say the car sounded awesome when following me to Roush Yates.

The combination of the ESS tune and Macht Schnell “Bypass Track Pipes” netted us an impressive 42 whp increase over stock with a peak gain of 51 whp and 42 lb-ft of torque at 6,300rpm. Where the stock car made 337 whp at 8,200rpm, this combo makes the same power at 6,500rpm and keeps increasing all the way to redline.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by derbo

Yup! I know its years ago but its a still a great article.

24whp before tuning is nothing to sneeze at. Without test pipes/stage 2 you really miss out on the S65's best version

[derbo]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

24whp before tuning is nothing to sneeze at. Without test pipes/stage 2 you really miss out on the S65's best version

Making me reconsider content with stock..lol

[//steve\\]

The more I think about the numbers/potential the more I'm leaning towards just doing it and dealing with whatever potential yearly hassle I have.

Thankfully I have a friend that's an excellent welder who will do the work for me so I might look into it more this summer. Still want to get more seat time stock before I change too much.

[ppatel14]

I was in the same dilemma not too long ago and decided to get the Bomiz x-pipe during their black friday sale. I had a stage 1 tune from Alpine for a year prior and decided to pull the trigger on the x-pipe since he graciously allows multiple tunes. If I had to buy another tune, I would've probably reconsidered since it would add around 5 hundos to the overall cost.

I have an OBDLink MX Bluetooth and its software along with the torque app shows the following. I'll probably try some O2 spacers when the time comes. Based in Atlanta, GA as well.

M3

[statik]

Alpine stage 2, only one readiness monitor is not ready. will pass fine in your state, same in NY

[pbonsalb]

No cats and just one readiness monitor out?

[OmairK]

https://www.fabspeed.com/universal-o...verter-single/

You'll thank me later.

[pbonsalb]

They work on some cars and don’t work on others so think about that before you spend the big bucks on the mini cat 02 extenders. From reading the forums for 10 years, it seems those with rear cats are much more likely to have success with 02 extenders or spark plug anti foulers or mini cat extenders.

It would be helpful if those who say their stage 2 tube passes OBD2 plug in provide the details on their midpipes. Stock, stock with front test pipes, stock with front and rear test pipes, aftermarket fully catless, aftermarket with high flow front cats, aftermarket with high flow front and rear cats, or aftermarket with high flow front and rear cats.

[//steve\\]

Just some follow-up. Previous owner happened to tell me he had no issues passing emissions here when he was completely catless from an OBD scan perspective. Would still have a single fail for rear o2 but that doesn't seem to be an automatic here so I think I'd be fine.

Obviously would have failed a visual but my experience has been that it's a 50/50 shot as to whether or not someone even looks.

[RYDEM3]

For those catless with tune and 1 monitor not ready and passing, are you guys taking it to the dmv inspection stations or somewhere else (for a fee)? Sorry for the noob ques.

[Bpark1977]

There's no substitute for a primary car delete. It changes the car and is the best dollar for power upgrade you can make. I don't think I could go back to cats now.
That being said, your "great welder" friend could probably fab up something to be able to reattach your cats for testing. With a good jack, stands, and a buddy - shouldn't take more than 30 mins to swap the pipes and reload the stock software.
Or move to WA, our emissions reqs expires Jan 1.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by RYDEM3

For those catless with tune and 1 monitor not ready and passing, are you guys taking it to the dmv inspection stations or somewhere else (for a fee)? Sorry for the noob ques.

With a cheap scan tool you can check I/M Readiness. It is getting harder to fake an obd2 plug in. It is easier to get a shop to look the other way on a visual. Swapping the stock x pipe back in and flashing the tune back to stock might take an hour or two.

[//steve\\]

Originally Posted by RYDEM3

For those catless with tune and 1 monitor not ready and passing, are you guys taking it to the dmv inspection stations or somewhere else (for a fee)? Sorry for the noob ques.

In Georgia you don't do emissions through the DMV. There are thousands of small businesses that do it. The place I go is literally a 30sqft brick building that basically has nothing more than the equipment they need and a computer.

That said, I have to think they all must follow the same procedure.

I've found here that 50% of the time the person doing it does not bother with a visual inspection and for someone like me who intends to keep the secondary cats I think it would be easy enough to convince someone nothing has been altered from stock.