M-DCT driving videos

[footie]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Do you still want to bet on S6 having a noticeable jerk at higher rpm shifts?

Last but not least driving one dual clutch system is absolutely not equivalent to driving them all. That comment applies to both you and footie.

No I wouldn't want to bet that you wouldn't notice the jerk in S6, that is why I asked the question to the one member I know of who has sampled the actual thing and I am looking forward to hearing what he has to say on the subject.

I agree that not all dual clutch gearboxes are the same but in a way that comment of mine and yours is not true either, it's really only the software which is changing the way they perform the shift and why I believe that S5 and S6 may feel totally different in their respective shifts but will show no noticeable difference in their acceleration times.

I can't say for certain if this will indeed be the case but it's what I believe and you are more than welcome to disagree with that opinion.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by footie

No I wouldn't want to bet that you wouldn't notice the jerk in S6, that is why I asked the question to the one member I know of who has sampled the actual thing and I am looking forward to hearing what he has to say on the subject.

The second call for a bet was actually to M3NTAL. Cheers.

[M3NTAL]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Look I am all for open discussion, but sometimes certain discussions and specific comments and acusations are very much directed right at one and only one person. In this case I simply observed and did not appreciate your butting in on a comment made directly to someone else.

Well I almost agree with this. I used to think that shorter and shorter shift times meant no jerk by definition but that is totally incorrect thinking. The transmission can smooth out the jerk on purpose or not. We should also be clear on what jerk is. Jerk and surge are IMO equivalent terms. However, the more precise term is actually the time derivative of acceleration. Also to be absolutely clear jerk/surge is not equivalent to a HIGH jerk or surge, typical of something like SMG II or SMG III in S6. When you change the torque by changing the rpm it will almost universally go up. With a very fast shift you then do not feel the deceleration as it is nearly non-existent. You do however feel this "surge" as BMW like to call it, or a positive change in acceleration. This is from both the higher torque=higher acceleration as well as from flywheel and engine angular momentum.

Do you still want to bet on S6 having a noticeable jerk at higher rpm shifts?

Last but not least driving one dual clutch system is absolutely not equivalent to driving them all. That comment applies to both you and footie.

To start off though, I don't believe you should be making comments demeaning someone's intelligence due to an opinion they hold. It's not a positive way to contribute to a forum or an open discussion. Just because someone has a different opinion than yours doesn't mean that they are 1) Wrong 2) Not as smart as you are 3) Deserving of your belittling arrogant attitude. You seem to have this everywhere I look on this forum, and quite frankly it's pathetic, just because you don't like something or disagree with someone does not give you the right to bring everyone down, and shoot remarks at them. Like I have stated before I hold no grudges and if you look besides my posts directed to you I'm a very positive member. I respect everyone, and I think you should do the same.

Alot of the info and insight you provide is very worthwhile and mostly correct, I just don't see the need for the bitterness.

Footie, I apologize for involving you, I don't have anything against you, and as evident by our posts we share generally the same opinion. My action was intended to point out the bitterness of Swamp, not you.

Second I'm not sure how jerk and surge are the same. When I, and generally I would have to say most people, think of JERK I think of a harsh experience, somewhat violent in nature. When I think of surge it generally means something that is constantly positive. SO, how does this reply to the discussion at hand? Like I stated, if it is a "surge" it refers to the nearly un-interrupted acceleration of the car, due to SMOOTH and FAST gear-changes. These gear-changes are evident in the cars I mentioned.

I also do know that all DCT transmissions are not alike, but they still share the same concept, and that concept IMO would be defeated if they purposely induced harshness into the gear-changes. Now will the shifting be more sudden to where all you feel is surge, then more surge (different however, due to the gear and rpm), I believe the answer is yes. Like Footie stated, I think this has been taken out of context.

So, Swamp I believe you and I agree, but the word jerk, I don't think should be used or will be used to describe how the gearbox changes gears.

I know all DCT transmissions aren't the same. The transmission of this type I've driven include VW's (GTi), Lamborghini E-Gear (in both generations of Murcielago and in the Gallardo), Veyron's, Audi's (RS4, R8), Bentley (Continental GT, and mostly in the Flying Spur, as my dad owns one), Ferrari's SMG (Challenge Stradale, Enzo, Fiorano, soon in the Scuderia), BMW's gearboxes(E46, M5, M6), and finally the AMG gearboxes from Mercedes (CLK63, CLS63, CL63, C63, S65, SL65, and E63)

So... I kinda know what I'm talking about. While all DCT-type gearboxes are different, the basic premise remains the same; smooth, fast shifts.

[footie]

M3NTAL,

You are OK, I realized that you weren't having a dig at me. I actual try to post positive and informative remarks on DCT and I personally reckon I have on the whole.

I too believe that their basic design of all DCT are similar and the only differences come from the software. Who are have sampled the SMGII before and after the software upgrade, you will know how much of a difference the software makes.

I am see waiting to hear for SMSgt B regarding the S5 vs S6 to see how they compare, that will be interesting.

With regards to swamp I think he is a worth while member of this forum who adds technical experience to things that the rest of us take for granted.

[skierman64]

Originally Posted by M3NTAL

I know all DCT transmissions aren't the same. The transmission of this type I've driven include VW's (GTi), Lamborghini E-Gear (in both generations of Murcielago and in the Gallardo), Veyron's, Audi's (RS4, R8), Bentley (Continental GT, and mostly in the Flying Spur, as my dad owns one), Ferrari's SMG (Challenge Stradale, Enzo, Fiorano, soon in the Scuderia), BMW's gearboxes(E46, M5, M6), and finally the AMG gearboxes from Mercedes (CLK63, CLS63, CL63, C63, S65, SL65, and E63)

So... I kinda know what I'm talking about. While all DCT-type gearboxes are different, the basic premise remains the same; smooth, fast shifts.

Aren't the Benz transmissions standard automatics with paddle shifters, similiar in style to the standard 3 series transmission with sport package and paddle shifters?

[M3NTAL]

Originally Posted by skierman64

Aren't the Benz transmissions standard automatics with paddle shifters, similiar in style to the standard 3 series transmission with sport package and paddle shifters?

Actually no. The AMG SPEEDSHIFT gearboxes are "Multi-Clutch" setups, but differ a bit from the DCT transmissions other companies have developed.

Here's a bit of info:

You can have it in Manual, Comfort, or Sport mode, but in Manual it boasts shift-times of 100ms, right near everyone else, so it is something quite special. It has double-declutching meaning you can downshift multiple gears at once. It has a "Race Start" function similar to the LC function on other cars. It has a wet-start clutch, which runs in an oil-bath and replaces/needs no torque converter. The transmission has a high pressure oil-cooling system, and nearly all of the housing is made from Magnesium.

[rai]

Originally Posted by M3NTAL

Actually no. The AMG SPEEDSHIFT gearboxes are "Multi-Clutch" setups, but differ a bit from the DCT transmissions other companies have developed.

Here's a bit of info:

You can have it in Manual, Comfort, or Sport mode, but in Manual it boasts shift-times of 100ms, right near everyone else, so it is something quite special. It has double-declutching meaning you can downshift multiple gears at once. It has a "Race Start" function similar to the LC function on other cars. It has a wet-start clutch, which runs in an oil-bath and replaces/needs no torque converter. The transmission has a high pressure oil-cooling system, and nearly all of the housing is made from Magnesium.

I was looking at that. the MB is not a double clutch, it's more like a highly worked over auto-box. I am not saying it's bad, but it's NOT a double clutch, it says fancy words but just double talk for an auto-box.

[rai]

since no one else has driven this tranny (at least not giving a real reviews except for SMSgt B.. )

I have some questions..

In all those videos it was not "full acceleration" correct? What/how does that effect the tranny meaning how does part throttle effect things like kick-down in auto mode?

I mean likely a full throttle will cause a kick-down to high rpms which you are trying to avoid.

Do you think part-throttle effects the shift speed or power in manual mode as well?

Could you say it feels different depending on how much throttle you are using, meaning is it always very smooth or does it depend?

Could you say how much you are pushing the acceleration?

It will be interesting after break-in to see how it behaves with more full-power vs when you are driving it with kid gloves.

Thanks again for posting as much info as you have already.

[SHADY1]

That's what I am talking about SMSgt B open it up a little on the Autobahn. Everyone needs to keep their cool because the best is yet to come and they will see what the car can really do all the way up to top speed. Just make sure you be careful because I know there is snow and ice on the road right now. I wish I was back there to pick up my M3 from the military car sales in Germany like you did. I have to wait for mine to be sent to me here in the states at the end of this month. Keep it up SMSgt B because you are on Barrowed time before you go back to the states.

[JEllis]

Originally Posted by M3NTAL

Actually no. The AMG SPEEDSHIFT gearboxes are "Multi-Clutch" setups, but differ a bit from the DCT transmissions other companies have developed.

Here's a bit of info:

You can have it in Manual, Comfort, or Sport mode, but in Manual it boasts shift-times of 100ms, right near everyone else, so it is something quite special. It has double-declutching meaning you can downshift multiple gears at once. It has a "Race Start" function similar to the LC function on other cars. It has a wet-start clutch, which runs in an oil-bath and replaces/needs no torque converter. The transmission has a high pressure oil-cooling system, and nearly all of the housing is made from Magnesium.

As far as I know MB has no DCT in production. The C63 AMG uses a very efficient automatic tranny much like the Lexus ISF...

Jason

[SMSgt B]

Thursday I have my 1200 miles service (gotta pay for it ... 500 Euros) so I should be able to answer some of your questions after that ... especially how is it beyond 5500. Friday I am taking a buddy to get his 335 vert so I will get him to hold the camera...

[corbz]

Awesome videos! Just a question about the response of engaging the paddles/shifter, is there an instantaneous response between ‘tapping’ the paddles/shifter and a shift occurring or is there a noticeable delay?

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by M3NTAL

To start off though, I don't believe you should be making comments demeaning someone's intelligence due to an opinion they hold. It's not a positive way to contribute to a forum or an open discussion. Just because someone has a different opinion than yours doesn't mean that they are 1) Wrong 2) Not as smart as you are 3) Deserving of your belittling arrogant attitude. You seem to have this everywhere I look on this forum, and quite frankly it's pathetic, just because you don't like something or disagree with someone does not give you the right to bring everyone down, and shoot remarks at them. Like I have stated before I hold no grudges and if you look besides my posts directed to you I'm a very positive member. I respect everyone, and I think you should do the same.

Alot of the info and insight you provide is very worthwhile and mostly correct, I just don't see the need for the bitterness.

Footie, I apologize for involving you, I don't have anything against you, and as evident by our posts we share generally the same opinion. My action was intended to point out the bitterness of Swamp, not you.

Second I'm not sure how jerk and surge are the same. When I, and generally I would have to say most people, think of JERK I think of a harsh experience, somewhat violent in nature. When I think of surge it generally means something that is constantly positive. SO, how does this reply to the discussion at hand? Like I stated, if it is a "surge" it refers to the nearly un-interrupted acceleration of the car, due to SMOOTH and FAST gear-changes. These gear-changes are evident in the cars I mentioned.

I also do know that all DCT transmissions are not alike, but they still share the same concept, and that concept IMO would be defeated if they purposely induced harshness into the gear-changes. Now will the shifting be more sudden to where all you feel is surge, then more surge (different however, due to the gear and rpm), I believe the answer is yes. Like Footie stated, I think this has been taken out of context.

So, Swamp I believe you and I agree, but the word jerk, I don't think should be used or will be used to describe how the gearbox changes gears.

I know all DCT transmissions aren't the same. The transmission of this type I've driven include VW's (GTi), Lamborghini E-Gear (in both generations of Murcielago and in the Gallardo), Veyron's, Audi's (RS4, R8), Bentley (Continental GT, and mostly in the Flying Spur, as my dad owns one), Ferrari's SMG (Challenge Stradale, Enzo, Fiorano, soon in the Scuderia), BMW's gearboxes(E46, M5, M6), and finally the AMG gearboxes from Mercedes (CLK63, CLS63, CL63, C63, S65, SL65, and E63)

So... I kinda know what I'm talking about. While all DCT-type gearboxes are different, the basic premise remains the same; smooth, fast shifts.

You now officially have the NOOB title and it has been well earned.

Isn't it a bit contradictory to offer the nice little "Respect " smilies and then litter your note with insults? You can't really have your cake and eat it too. I will be the first to admit an ego. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. As long as it does not pollute ones posts or otherwise interfere with their valuable contributions. As well, to put the ball right back in your court, you sound a bit arrogant and uninformed. Actually let me state that with much more clarity. You are WRONG and UNINFORMED based on your massive confusion on which cars have dual clutch transmissions and which do not. This, like many thing I enjoy discussing are not matter of OPINION, they are matter of FACT. I was going to give you a pass on your previous boastful posts about all of the great cars you have driven but now you are getting called out on it. Most of us don't care much about all of these wonderful cars you have driven. We care about the cars, for sure, but we don't really give a rats a$$ if YOU have driven them. As you can see from the various replies you received many of us do care about you screwing up matters of fact. Many of us, myself included, come here for facts and fact based discussions. As well we expect that opinions are good when based on fact. If this appears arrogant or disrepsectful, as you have accused me of, all I can really say is frankly "too bad". Privilege does not buy you knowledge, accuracy nor good opinions.

Back to transmissions ... I think your mathematics background is interfering with your understanding of how to relate subjective/descriptive words to measurable and precise concepts with roots in basic math (calculus). Surge and jerk can very well be equivalent, but common connotation makes you feel they are different with one possibly being "better". There may be some merit there, but the math really makes it all clear. Do have a look here for a nice introduction to this topic -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerk . Of course that being said we do not know the exact acceleration behavior during M-DCT shifts, but we have a darn good idea from a variety of information sources.

So although I am not taking much of your advice, here is mine to you:

Get your facts straight, don't boast, get your post count up with some quality comments. At that point you will have earned some respect and won't have the big NOOB sign pasted on your forehead. Last but not least, if you really now think I am nothing but a giant a-hole, look around and find out how many first posts (or posts from those with very low post counts) I have strongly praised. I enjoy solid posts and like to freely and unselfishly praise folks who make this a cool place to share and to learn.

[phoenixbmwlife]

Originally Posted by swamp2

You now officially have the NOOB title and it has been well earned.

Isn't it a bit contradictory to offer the nice little "Respect " smilies and then litter your note with insults? You can't really have your cake and eat it too. I will be the first to admit an ego. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. As long as it does not pollute ones posts or otherwise interfere with their valuable contributions. As well, to put the ball right back in your court, you sound a bit arrogant and uninformed. Actually let me state that with much more clarity. You are WRONG and UNINFORMED based on your massive confusion on which cars have dual clutch transmissions and which do not. This, like many thing I enjoy discussing are not matter of OPINION, they are matter of FACT. I was going to give you a pass on your previous boastful posts about all of the great cars you have driven but now you are getting called out on it. Most of us don't care much about all of these wonderful cars you have driven. We care about the cars, for sure, but we don't really give a rats a$$ if YOU have driven them. As you can see from the various replies you received many of us do care about you screwing up matters of fact. Many of us, myself included, come here for facts and fact based discussions. As well we expect that opinions are good when based on fact. If this appears arrogant or disrepsectful, as you have accused me of, all I can really say is frankly "too bad". Privilege does not buy you knowledge, accuracy nor good opinions.

Back to transmissions ... I think your mathematics background is interfering with your understanding of how to relate subjective/descriptive words to measurable and precise concepts with roots in basic math (calculus). Surge and jerk can very well be equivalent, but common connotation makes you feel they are different with one possibly being "better". There may be some merit there, but the math really makes it all clear. Do have a look here for a nice introduction to this topic -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerk . Of course that being said we do not know the exact acceleration behavior during M-DCT shifts, but we have a darn good idea from a variety of information sources.

So although I am not taking much of your advice, here is mine to you:

Get your facts straight, don't boast, get your post count up with some quality comments. At that point you will have earned some respect and won't have the big NOOB sign pasted on your forehead. Last but not least, if you really now think I am nothing but a giant a-hole, look around and find out how many first posts (or posts from those with very low post counts) I have strongly praised. I enjoy solid posts and like to freely and unselfishly praise folks who make this a cool place to share and to learn.

Not to get involved or anything but you 2 of you need a room. lol

[footie]

Originally Posted by K3N R3D

Not to get involved or anything but you 2 of you need a room. lol

I am just enjoying not being the centre of swamp rage.

[M3NTAL]

Originally Posted by swamp2

You are WRONG and UNINFORMED based on your massive confusion on which cars have dual clutch transmissions and which do not. This, like many thing I enjoy discussing are not matter of OPINION, they are matter of FACT.

Insults? Point out where I directly insulted you, the way you have insulted me. (EXCEPT IN THIS POST)

I seem to get along with every other member hear except you. Second, I don't really need to have your respect, and quite frankly I don't want it.

I just looked in the mirror while I was in the restroom, and I don't have any sign on my forehead. That's just a figment of you imagination, just like you thinking you're always right, and that you're better than me.

I really am not going to try to get my post count up, unlike you, I have a life, a fiancé, a job at which I make more money than you could ever dream of, because I'm a nuclear pharmacist, I have degrees from Butler and Purdue. So why don't you do some research on the schooling (and Math ) it takes to be me.

So what does this come down to? Me NOT taking your so called "advice". Why? Because it isn't advice its the opinion of a lonely middle-aged man, who is so unhappy with his life he resorts to hiding behind a computer screen, and swinging his huge imaginary cock around. You enjoy this don't you? It's the only part of your life that makes you feel important, feel smart, and feel good about yourself. But you're really none of those things... You wish you were though.

First of all, I know what transmissions are dual clutch and which ones aren't. I stated the number of cars I have driven with the auto/manual function, many of which are DCT gearboxes except the Mercedes and the others I noted. So where is my confusion? Oh yeah thats right, there isn't any. Maybe you're just pulling that out of your ass. That's right I said ass. I'm a big boy, and I can say those words. I stated these cars, because to show I have experience in driving a DCT gearbox, and KNOW what I'm talking about when I say they are different, but have the same principles. Other than your reply I don't see any others stating I have anything wrong... Thats because I don't.

So swamp, rant on all you want, but you will just be wasting your time, or your case, your life. I no longer can see your posts, which is awesome, because the every once-in-awhile that I do happen to go on this website for information, it won't be clouded with all the pathetic bullshit that is YOU.

Thanks for giving me a good laugh, and I wish you luck that one day, one day soon perhaps, you will have a life to be proud of, and not resort to to ***attempting*** to be better than others. I'm really a great guy, maybe you'll see that if you pull your head out of your ass. I doubt you will though. But either way, I really don't care.

[ideliver]

WOW...thank you so much for making those vids...very helpful for those of us contemplating DCT

[S65B40]

Awesome videos! I think I might have to get a E90 sedan with M-DCT as a daily once my 535i lease is up!

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by M3NTAL

Insults? Point out where I directly insulted you, the way you have insulted me.

OK where do I start...

belittling
arrogant
pathetic
bitterness

You got this started and still want to continue it. You clearly can not take the heat, so you know the saying, get out of the kitchen.

Originally Posted by M3NTAL

First of all, I know what transmissions are dual clutch and which ones aren't. I stated the number of cars I have driven with the auto/manual function, many of which are DCT gearboxes except the Mercedes and the others I noted. So where is my confusion? Oh yeah thats right, there isn't any. Maybe you're just pulling that out of your ass. That's right I said ass. I'm a big boy, and I can say those words. I stated these cars, because to show I have experience in driving a DCT gearbox, and KNOW what I'm talking about when I say they are different, but have the same principles. Other than your reply I don't see any others stating I have anything wrong... Thats because I don't.

Wow, you do not even know how wrong and confused you are. This has gotten truly comical. You stated,

Originally Posted by M3NTAL

I know all DCT transmissions aren't the same. The transmission of this type I've driven include ...

and then preceded to provide an enormous list of transmission that ARE NOT DUAL CLUTCH transmissions. skierman and rai both pointed out how you are wrong and you got MANY more wrong than just the ones they pointed out. Whether or not you actually know which of the ones you listed are or are not true dual clutch units, you stated it wrong and have been called out on it and now are trying to back pedal. If you must know the only dual clutch on your little list is the GTI! It all looks pretty pathetic. Admit you were wrong and move along. That is what all mature folks here do when they are wrong.

Originally Posted by M3NTAL

That's just a figment of you imagination, just like you thinking you're always right, and that you're better than me

Nope sorry, still wrong. Well until this post maybe. You were wrong as pointed out above, but I never thought (knew) I am a better person than you until this truly pathetic, speculative, rambling drivel of an attack:

Originally Posted by M3NTAL

...because I'm a nuclear pharmacist, I have degrees from Butler and Purdue. So why don't you do some research on the schooling (and Math ) it takes to be me.
...
Because it isn't advice its the opinion of a lonely middle-aged man, who is so unhappy with his life he resorts to hiding behind a computer screen, and swinging his huge imaginary cock around. You enjoy this don't you? It's the only part of your life that makes you feel important, feel smart, and feel good about yourself. But you're really none of those things... You wish you were though.

Well I don't need to boast about my happy, fulfilling and prosperous life out side of this fun, enjoyable little past time and community I participate in. When you start making such massive, pure assumptions, speculations and accusations how can it come across as anything but reaching and pathetic? You know nothing about me. But just to share and set you straight I will divulge just a little bit. I only offer such details as a direct response to your complete BS attack. It really takes someone with serious insecurities to bother posting such personal details on an internet forum about BMWs when totally unprompted. Anyway...

• I am not middle aged.
• I am not lonely nor unhappy.
• I am engaged to a wonderful, intelligent and beautiful woman.
• I have a degree in mathematics, which is math so far beyond what a pharmacist would typically ever know. And I'm willing to bet anything that this includes you.
• I have two additional academic degrees (not a trade/professional degree like Pharmacy) from Washington University in St. Louis and UC San Diego. That makes 3 degrees, Mr. Pharmacist.
• I would not trade any of my many professional positions spanning both technical and business areas for one day of your "wonderful" Pharmacy job.
• I'll compare W2s with you any day as long as your compensation is from your Pharmacy job and not from Daddy's pocketbook.

I'm sure I am not the only one completely tired of your factually incorrect statements, boastful/conceited attitude, senseless personal attacks and elevation upon elevation. Since you have claimed I am now "invisible" to you that is great. I will consider my case stated herein and no public reply from you. We can continue this by PM and stop the way OT digression you have now caused.

P.S. Try some better spelling and punctuation if you are so educated and brilliant.

[footie]

Am I the only person a little sad that this thread like many others deteriorate into an argument of egos and who's the smartest, most intelligent.



Lets get back on track here, SMSgt B has provided some insight as to how the DCT feels when shifting and how quick it is, his remarks are slightly different to those of Gasman which leads me to believe that this jerk/surge is very much up to your own perception of what you feel.

I'm checking my dealer today to see if they have or when they are getting in their first DCT M3 to see for myself and give an objective opinion from someone with experience on the technology and see if this surge is solely because of the extra power/torque available in the M3 over what the GTi have.

Will keep you posted as to my results.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by footie

Am I the only person a little sad that this thread like many others deteriorate into an argument of egos and who's the smartest, most intelligent.



Lets get back on track here, SMSgt B has provided some insight as to how the DCT feels when shifting and how quick it is, his remarks are slightly different to those of Gasman which leads me to believe that this jerk/surge is very much up to your own perception of what you feel.

I'm checking my dealer today to see if they have or when they are getting in their first DCT M3 to see for myself and give an objective opinion from someone with experience on the technology and see if this surge is solely because of the extra power/torque available in the M3 over what the GTi have.

Will keep you posted as to my results.

I know I have got way off topic here but I think the insults and baiting could not go without my public defense. This was never about "who it smarter" from my perspective, simply the facts and my defense.

Back on topic. I do not think anyone can be truly objective here. As well even with experience with other DCTs way too many factors like overall hp, NVH, acoustics, etc. can seriously bias ones reporting. Without a large jury type test and without detailed accelerometer measurements (math/physics = 100% objective, at least at this very simple level) all we will have is many opinions and they may provide quorum or not. If you do plan to provide a VW DSG vs. M3 M-DCT comparo you should very much try a true back to back eval.

[footie]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I know I have got way off topic here but I think the insults and baiting could not go without my public defense. This was never about "who it smarter" from my perspective, simply the facts and my defense.

I understand mate, none of us want to back down on anything, myself included, if I believe I am right I am like I dog with a bone.

Originally Posted by swamp2

Back on topic. I do not think anyone can be truly objective here. As well even with experience with other DCTs way too many factors like overall hp, NVH, acoustics, etc. can seriously bias ones reporting. Without a large jury type test and without detailed accelerometer measurements (math/physics = 100% objective, at least at this very simple level) all we will have is many opinions and they may provide quorum or not. If you do plan to provide a VW DSG vs. M3 M-DCT comparo you should very much try a true back to back eval.

swamp,

I don't need to provide a direct DSG vs DCT comparison to give a valued opinion of the new DCT, my own experience and time with it should be plenty. I will as always provide an unbiased opinion on how the thing behaves and feels through my own accelerometer (my ass ) which has always serviced me well before. To be honest swamp, if you can't feel this surge through your ass then it's actual measurement will be making little difference to the performance.

The only thing I can't pass judgement on is the Veyron's DSG as unfortunately I have never sampled one myself though I know someone who has and according to him it pins you to the seat and you never feel the changes happening. So if that is correct then the actual power has no bearing on the shift at all and it's all to do with the software application.

One thing a proper measurement will provide is how this surge/jerk is actually happening and why it's may be being felt if at all.