Track forum general chit chat.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

How does Bimmer Challenge handle hp mods?

For example my buddy Ken Orgeron would be classed in B1 which I believe is the same as you. However your two cars in NASA would be separated by two classes. His in TT3 - 10 lbs/hp and yours I think you estimated in TT1 which is 6 lbs/hp. The typical time difference between each class is about 2 seconds. So about 4 seconds between TT3 and TT1.

Just curious.

So-----the Bimmer Challenge classification system does struggle a bit when it's forced to compare a car like Ken's to mine.

You have to understand that Bimmer Challenge was a pretty mellow competition until a couple years ago. And even today, almost no one is showing up knowing the exact dyno horsepower of their car, and they aren't getting official weights of their cars prior to events. (I don't know exactly what my car weighs at the moment.....I say it's around 3250lbs.) No one has ever been weighed at events. This was a simple competition embedded in an HPDE without any clean laps guaranteed and little-to-no prizes. Honestly, it was probably just a way to get more people to sign up for the HPDE.

But then, a group of BMW enthusiasts took it on and turned it into quite a nice thing---sponsors, prizes, a social media push, and a fair amount of interest from some avid/intense competitors. I really respect the time and effort the organizers have put into it. And it keeps growing and adapting each year. I suspect the points classification system hasn't grown as much as the popularity of the Challenge. I've never asked, but these BC organizers may all be volunteers as far as I know.

B1 is the highest Class you can go. You could add a million points and still be in B1. So yes, both Ken and I would both be in B1. I heard that they considered making a BU (Unlimited) Class, which in essence would boot me out of main the competition since I'd probably be the only car in there, but they didn't. I guess the problem is, if they create too many Classes, there won't be enough people competing against each other. Having only 1 or 2 people in a Class is not much fun.

Anyway, I'm not sure what the best answer here is. If the BC organizers truly are volunteers, then demanding dynos and weighing cars at every event could be simply too much to demand from volunteers. A points system is much easier to deal with.

At the end of the day, I get it.......my car is probably the biggest problem child that attends BC events. The points classification system does a pretty good job of sorting cars out. But my combo of power and moderate weight reduction with full aero, slicks, suspension and brakes is a problem because it adds up to a lot of points. But I didn't build my car to compete in Bimmer Challenge. My car is what it is. And there are events where I didn't win by much----sometimes less than 0.1sec.

Is that fair to Ken who would be traveling to California all the way from Arizona to be slammed into a Class where he may not have a chance to win? I don't know.....I fly out from Colorado. Would I bother to attend these particular events if I was just in a Class all by myself? I don't know....All I can say is that I don't make the rules. I'm just a participant.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by kpewpew

Whoa Bchallenge doesn't do own run group for the TT group? That's rough. Here's an example of the format I liked- red is the TT group and we were our own group until after the noon session.

And great post as usual Gabe

Thanks! Yeah, it adds another layer of strategy and complexity when you aren't "guaranteed" clean laps. But being guaranteed open laps is tough. As I understand it, NASA TT doesn't really guarantee it either. It's a TT session, but I think you all go out at once. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)

PCA has a format that works very nicely. 5 cars per timed-run group, 10 seconds between cars----1 warm up, 2 hot laps, and you exit the track immediately after the second hot lap. No cool down lap. You actually slow down after the finish line and make a U-turn into pit lane. And then they run the next group of 5 cars immediately. It's pretty efficient.

I've done several local Global Time Attack (GTA) events. Those are fun. Pretty easy to get clean laps. But I've also done several SuperLap Battle (SLB) events with GTA. These are much more hotly contested events with higher turnout and crazier cars. I have had the HARDEST time finding open laps at SLB. It's easier for me to find open laps at Bimmer Challenge.

I wonder, if BC gets bigger in the future, maybe they could get a run group within a Speed Ventures event, or maybe, it gets big enough where they make it it's own day. That would be awesome.

[kyippee]

Own run group like as done by SpeedSF Challenge seems to be a really good intermediate step. (nobody below a certain lap time pacing, grid by first two sessions' PB, pace car for the outlap, no passing on second lap (green), then run wild)

Own day - amazing!

Do more NorCal days; I'm definitely in! Like Sonoma Raceway, Thunderhill East/West, and Laguna Seca of course. Would be cool to have Bimmer Challenge NorCal and SoCal, then have a NorCal vs. SoCal shoot out lol

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by dogbone

Thanks! Yeah, it adds another layer of strategy and complexity when you aren't "guaranteed" clean laps. But being guaranteed open laps is tough. As I understand it, NASA TT doesn't really guarantee it either. It's a TT session, but I think you all go out at once. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)

PCA has a format that works very nicely. 5 cars per group, 10 seconds between cars----1 warm up, 2 hot laps, and you exit the track immediately after the second hot lap. No cool down lap. You actually slow down after the finish line and make a U-turn into pit lane.

I've done several local Global Time Attack (GTA) events. Those are fun. Pretty easy to get clean laps. But I've also done several SuperLap Battle (SLB) events with GTA. These are much more hotly contested events with higher turnout and crazier cars. I have had the HARDEST time finding open laps at SLB. It's easier for me to find open laps at Bimmer Challenge.

I wonder, if BC gets bigger in the future, maybe they could get a run group within a Speed Ventures event, or maybe, it gets big enough where they make it it's own day. That would be awesome.

In NASA TT you should get 2/3 clean laps. We don't go out with any other group. If the TT groups get big enough, we'll split into 2 groups.

Every once in a while some joker will try to grid out of order and might end up messing up a good lap but for the most part we all cooperate. If for example, I'm on stickers I'll leave a bigger gap on out lap.

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by dogbone

So-----the Bimmer Challenge classification system does struggle a bit when it's forced to compare a car like Ken's to mine.

You have to understand that Bimmer Challenge was a pretty mellow competition until a couple years ago. And even today, almost no one is showing up knowing the exact dyno horsepower of their car, and they aren't getting official weights of their cars prior to events. (I don't know exactly what my car weighs at the moment.....I say it's around 3250lbs.) No one has ever been weighed at events. This was a simple competition embedded in an HPDE without any clean laps guaranteed and little-to-no prizes. Honestly, it was probably just a way to get more people to sign up for the HPDE.

But then, a group of BMW enthusiasts took it on and turned it into quite a nice thing---sponsors, prizes, a social media push, and a fair amount of interest from some avid/intense competitors. I really respect the time and effort the organizers have put into it. And it keeps growing and adapting each year. I suspect the points classification system hasn't grown as much as the popularity of the Challenge. I've never asked, but these BC organizers may all be volunteers as far as I know.

B1 is the highest Class you can go. You could add a million points and still be in B1. So yes, both Ken and I would both be in B1. I heard that they considered making a BU (Unlimited) Class, which in essence would boot me out of main the competition since I'd probably be the only car in there, but they didn't. I guess the problem is, if they create too many Classes, there won't be enough people competing against each other. Having only 1 or 2 people in a Class is not much fun.

Anyway, I'm not sure what the best answer here is. If the BC organizers truly are volunteers, then demanding dynos and weighing cars at every event could be simply too much to demand from volunteers. A points system is much easier to deal with.

At the end of the day, I get it.......my car is probably the biggest problem child that attends BC events. The points classification system does a pretty good job of sorting cars out. But my combo of power and moderate weight reduction with full aero, slicks, suspension and brakes is a problem because it adds up to a lot of points. But I didn't build my car to compete in Bimmer Challenge. My car is what it is. And there are events where I didn't win by much----sometimes less than 0.1sec.

Is that fair to Ken who would be traveling to California all the way from Arizona to be slammed into a Class where he may not have a chance to win? I don't know.....I fly out from Colorado. Would I bother to attend these particular events if I was just in a Class all by myself? I don't know....All I can say is that I don't make the rules. I'm just a participant.

Any classing system will have its issues. It's much better to build to a ruleset than to try to force fit something later. When I first started I ended up in TT3 though my car was basically outclassed. Ken O and another guy Allan Page were smoking me even though they were in TT4 . Eventually I was able to get the car optimized for TT3. Ken did the same and joined TT3 and everyone was pushing each other. In 2017 and 2018, Ken and I were able to reset a bunch of TT3 records.

This past year, Paul Costas started to drive a detuned corvette that makes 280 whp but it's a flat 280 whp from 3500 to 7500 rpm. He broke my COTA record by 5 seconds and destroyed everyone at Nationals. He's a great driver and has a car perfectly tuned for TT3 and can jump over to TT2 and kick butt there.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

This past year, Paul Costas started to drive a detuned corvette that makes 280 whp but it's a flat 280 whp from 3500 to 7500 rpm. He broke my COTA record by 5 seconds and destroyed everyone at Nationals. He's a great driver and has a car perfectly tuned for TT3 and can jump over to TT2 and kick butt there.

I thought the avg HP calc was supposed to penalize detunes?

I think with WT:HP classing, 10:1 isn't always 10:1 in TT3. Probably a lot slower at 3500 lbs than 2500 lbs if both are 10:1. I don't think the NASA weight penalties are high enough to counteract that. For one, you can account for much less fuel consumption.

It will be interesting...I'm trying to be at the absolute minimum weight and then match the HP to it. I guess the results will tell the story.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

Any classing system will have its issues. It's much better to build to a ruleset than to try to force fit something later. When I first started I ended up in TT3 though my car was basically outclassed. Ken O and another guy Allan Page were smoking me even though they were in TT4 . Eventually I was able to get the car optimized for TT3. Ken did the same and joined TT3 and everyone was pushing each other. In 2017 and 2018, Ken and I were able to reset a bunch of TT3 records.

This past year, Paul Costas started to drive a detuned corvette that makes 280 whp but it's a flat 280 whp from 3500 to 7500 rpm. He broke my COTA record by 5 seconds and destroyed everyone at Nationals. He's a great driver and has a car perfectly tuned for TT3 and can jump over to TT2 and kick butt there.

Interesting. Yeah, my car is not built for any particular series/purpose. It just ends up in Whatever class---usually the most difficult one. At GTA, I'm in Unlimited which is tough at bigger events. At SuperLap Battle, I'm getting smoked by Miatas and S2000s that are 1000lbs lighter than me. I just can't keep up. A 2200lbs Miata with 400hp....that's 5.5lbs/hp....that's a better ratio than what I'm pushing, and they can FLYYYYYY around the corners. Whatever. I'm ok with that. I'm happy with my platform.

But, as I've mentioned before, the only way I'd consider NASA TT is if I was able to stay out of TTU. I ain't going up against a Ginetta G57......an LMP2 car that's 10 seconds faster than my personal best at Buttonwillow......screw that. That's not a competition. That's just dumb.

[redpriest]

Originally Posted by kpewpew

Also, redpriest where/how did you get the cage in your car that enables putting wheels in rear seat area? Not sure if it was your E46 or E92, but Brandon at P-Tech was telling me about it.. pretty sweet thought for the future.

I have the AE performance cage:



The bottom part shown in that photo mounts on the top part of the parcel shelf area in the back, with a bar running across. This leaves enough area for you to push your tires flat through the hole in the trunk to the backseat area of your car. How I play Tetris is this:

I will lay one tire flat on the driver side, then have a car sitting upright and jammed as far to the passenger side as possible. This lets me slide another tire through and up on top of the first tire.



This leaves me plenty of room in the trunk to fit the 4th tire and lots of room for my track tools, chairs, cooler:

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by dogbone

Interesting. Yeah, my car is not built for any particular series/purpose. It just ends up in Whatever class---usually the most difficult one. At GTA, I'm in Unlimited which is tough at bigger events. At SuperLap Battle, I'm getting smoked by Miatas and S2000s that are 1000lbs lighter than me. I just can't keep up. A 2200lbs Miata with 400hp....that's 5.5lbs/hp....that's a better ratio than what I'm pushing, and they can FLYYYYYY around the corners. Whatever. I'm ok with that. I'm happy with my platform.

But, as I've mentioned before, the only way I'd consider NASA TT is if I was able to stay out of TTU. I ain't going up against a Ginetta G57......an LMP2 car that's 10 seconds faster than my personal best at Buttonwillow......screw that. That's not a competition. That's just dumb.

You can for sure make it into TT1. Usually just running A7's instead of slicks is enough to tip the scales. Even better drop some weight and flatten your hp curve.

I have run TT in 6 different NASA regions. It's kind cool to be able to compete in multiple regions using the same classing rules.

[redpriest]

One thing of note - if your car is stripped in the back like mine, you will have a lot of harness wires exposed. It so happened that as I was packing up my car this weekend, I knocked loose a wire clip attached to the fuel control module. I tried to start the car a few times and it would just sputter and die, lol. I managed to force the car a few hundred feet by gassing it, and boy was my car mad - check engine light, fuel pump malfunction, limp mode....

I spent about 30 minutes trying to figure out why it was running just fine all day until I noticed that I had snapped off the clip holding the wire to the little module. Ugh. Plugged it back in, and once I had enough fuel pressure, car stayed running and all my problems went away.

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I thought the avg HP calc was supposed to penalize detunes?

I think with WT:HP classing, 10:1 isn't always 10:1 in TT3. Probably a lot slower at 3500 lbs than 2500 lbs if both are 10:1. I don't think the NASA weight penalties are high enough to counteract that. For one, you can account for much less fuel consumption.

It will be interesting...I'm trying to be at the absolute minimum weight and then match the HP to it. I guess the results will tell the story.

It doesn't penalize tunes. For FI cars, the basic premise is that you will detune so the formula is aimed to level the playing field. However, it is always better with any car to detune.

For example, Paul's car is 10 lb/hp at 4000 rpm through 7500 rpm. My car is 17 lb/hp at 4000 rpm and peaks at 9.4 lb/hp at 7500. Paul's car was 2 seconds faster from 11-12 at COTA then me. Obviously he kicked my butt everywhere else, but you can see the benefit of very flat hp curve.

I am not complaining. I admire what they've done but it causes the rest of us to fight for 2nd and 3rd.

You can see all of TT dyno plots for all registered competitors on the compliance database. Kind of fun to see what folk have done.

https://airtable.com/shrtuIZcugofvmCJZ

[redpriest]

Originally Posted by dogbone

Thanks! Yeah, it adds another layer of strategy and complexity when you aren't "guaranteed" clean laps. But being guaranteed open laps is tough. As I understand it, NASA TT doesn't really guarantee it either. It's a TT session, but I think you all go out at once. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)

PCA has a format that works very nicely. 5 cars per group, 10 seconds between cars----1 warm up, 2 hot laps, and you exit the track immediately after the second hot lap. No cool down lap. You actually slow down after the finish line and make a U-turn into pit lane.

I've done several local Global Time Attack (GTA) events. Those are fun. Pretty easy to get clean laps. But I've also done several SuperLap Battle (SLB) events with GTA. These are much more hotly contested events with higher turnout and crazier cars. I have had the HARDEST time finding open laps at SLB. It's easier for me to find open laps at Bimmer Challenge.

I wonder, if BC gets bigger in the future, maybe they could get a run group within a Speed Ventures event, or maybe, it gets big enough where they make it it's own day. That would be awesome.

But that would block my favorite excuse for why my lap times weren't up to par - "I WAS BLOCKED BY TRAFFIC ALL DAY, COULDN'T GET A CLEAN LAP".

It happens too, lol, but I just chock it up to one of those things.

[kyippee]

Originally Posted by redpriest

One thing of note - if your car is stripped in the back like mine, you will have a lot of harness wires exposed. It so happened that as I was packing up my car this weekend, I knocked loose a wire clip attached to the fuel control module. I tried to start the car a few times and it would just sputter and die, lol. I managed to force the car a few hundred feet by gassing it, and boy was my car mad - check engine light, fuel pump malfunction, limp mode....

I spent about 30 minutes trying to figure out why it was running just fine all day until I noticed that I had snapped off the clip holding the wire to the little module. Ugh. Plugged it back in, and once I had enough fuel pressure, car stayed running and all my problems went away.

Dude that's awesome. I believe AE Performance is out of business now... is that correct? So I can't buy it now? Damn it! Good excuse to not cage my car.

[redpriest]

Originally Posted by kpewpew

Dude that's awesome. I believe AE Performance is out of business now... is that correct? So I can't buy it now? Damn it! Good excuse to not cage my car.

Yeah ... I bought mine used. I believe there are others with similar design. My e46 lets me fit tires back there as well and that is an Autopower 4 point roll bar.

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by kpewpew

Dude that's awesome. I believe AE Performance is out of business now... is that correct? So I can't buy it now? Damn it! Good excuse to not cage my car.

JP Marketing jakob66 makes a solid half cage as well. I have the "no tires in the back seat" version - but I believe they make one for that purpose as well. Solid construction & the mounting is well thought out (I mean c'mon, who doesn't like a well thought out mount...).

No affiliation, satisfied customer so throwing another option out there.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by redpriest

But that would block my favorite excuse for why my lap times weren't up to par - "I WAS BLOCKED BY TRAFFIC ALL DAY, COULDN'T GET A CLEAN LAP".

It happens too, lol, but I just chock it up to one of those things.

C'mon---the traffic excuse is your favorite?.....You could have much better excuses than that! Here, let me come up with a few custom excuses just for you!:

-"My girlfriend rides in my car during every session. Imagine how much faster I could go without her weight and the weight of the extra seat. What? No, honey, I didn't mean you were heavy! OWW! Stop hitting me with the torque wrench!! OWW! Really, I was just OWWWW!!"
-"Yeah....my lap times aren't where I want because my competitor is driving my car today too, so the engine is already hot and the tires are greasy when I get in it.....plus, he sprung for shitty tires that aren't fresh any more.....hey, why are you taking your wheels off my car?!"
-"I have an E46 M3, an E92 M3 and an F80 M3.....to be honest, it's hard to build any consistency because I own so many cars and they're all so different. If I just stuck to one platform, I know I'd be faster. Why are you giving me that look? Hey, where are you guys going? Anyone wanna have lunch?......"
-"After my E46 got damaged in Vegas, the steering isn't quite right and something is shaking. I told the crappy-ass shop I'm going to make them really check their crappy-ass work....but....for some reason they won't take my calls now....."
-"I attend all the Bimmer Challenge events. With the new format being best 9 of 10, all I really need to do is show up. I don't need to win any days. Everyone else is f**king lazy and doesn't show up....it's pretty much an automatic win for me this year.....hey, anyone want to go to Willow Ranch BBQ tonight?? What? No one's hungry?....Seriously? No one is eating dinner?....."
-"I live in NorCal. It's exhausting driving down to SoCal for so many events. If I didn't have to travel so far, I'd be much fresher. Do you even know how many ridiculous excuses I've had to come up with so I don't have to go into work on Fridays? All you SoCal guys have it so easy."

hmmm on second thought, maybe these excuses aren't very good....

[CorruptCommie]

Originally Posted by dogbone

Short answer:
An HPDE is not a competitive event.

You guys must do things differently in CA.

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by CorruptCommie

You guys must do things differently in CA.

via Imgflip Meme Generator

[kyippee]

What's a good place to put a transponder? I zip tied to the front lower grill, but I don't like how it blocks air intake for cooling.

Any tips?

[macdude357]

Originally Posted by kpewpew

What's a good place to put a transponder? I zip tied to the front lower grill, but I don't like how it blocks air intake for cooling.

Any tips?

I've had success attaching it to the windshield wiper (although the track day organizer I run with says it might not work properly that way). Thinking about this a bit more, you might be able to attach it to the small "grill" in the rear as well. I've also seen some attach it to a metal tow hook if you run one of those.

[SAMM3Y]

Originally Posted by kpewpew

What's a good place to put a transponder? I zip tied to the front lower grill, but I don't like how it blocks air intake for cooling.

Any tips?

[img]https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...pg?format=750w[/img]

Tow hook? The tow guys don't mind they'll snip the zip ties before they tow you.. providing your not using a strap..

[elim11]

Originally Posted by kpewpew

What's a good place to put a transponder? I zip tied to the front lower grill, but I don't like how it blocks air intake for cooling.

Any tips?

Front tow hook is what I use