ACL rod bearings?

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

You know how it works ?

Yessir...

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

Well....They wouldn't be the first to reuse Torque To Yield bolts. Plenty of others have done it. Myself included before I knew any better. Its not that they'll fail catastrophically and snap in two while the engine is running. The issue with reusing TTY bolts in any application is that once they are torqued they yield certain and repeatable characteristics, i.e. clamp force, bore diameter, etc. Once they have been torqued and you follow the same installation procedures for subsequent fastening you'll end up with skewed results. Bore diameters won't be the same, etc. So yes, they may work in a practical sense but since your final dimensions may be slightly different, you may end up with only 50k on a set of replacement bearings instead of 70k. The shop is probably counting on it being "someone else's problem" by then.

Love it, an attitude to learn new things and understanding of new technologies.
"Done it this way since start, nope haven't heard about non stretch, and btw don't teach me my job your only a customer", makes me just nervous about capabilities, as things do tend to develop.
One of my brothers in law owns a Jaguar shop, granted with focus on the good old 50s-60s cars, he can't stop joking about my maintenance view and oil intervals etc, " sure you have replaced the air in your tires lately?" Haha, love the guy but would not let him near my M3, stuck in old times.

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

....One of my brothers in law owns a Jaguar shop, granted with focus on the good old 50s-60s cars, he can't stop joking about my maintenance view and oil intervals etc, " sure you have replaced the air in your tires lately?" Haha, love the guy but would not let him near my M3, stuck in old times.

Wait, An old British car guy is giving YOU grief about excessive maintenance??? Now I've heard it all!

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

Wait, An old British car guy is giving YOU grief about excessive maintenance??? Now I've heard it all!

Hahaha! You would think he knows everything about changing parts on a every second month bases... And I'm sure he does but again when it comes to fluids, plugs, and general overhall its apparently nothing the good old Brit's require. Subject for a lot of fun and interesting dialog around the family dinner tables though!

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by Green-Eggs

Bert has both sets of ACL bearings. He'll provide measurements for both.

Hey Green-Eggs, heard anything from Bert on his plans to measure the ACL shells? (nothing on their page yet).

Thanks

[Pro-AM3]

ACL has a name in the highest form of street/motorsports engines, 2000hp+, 10,000RPM+
offerings. I wouldnt have any fear running what they offer

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by Pro-AM3

ACL has a name in the highest form of street/motorsports engines, 2000hp+, 10,000RPM+
offerings. I wouldnt have any fear running what they offer

Doing some looking around, yes that seems to be the case. Had a chat with the fab and received specs, doesn't talk about shell variations (while taking journal and housing into account) but from what I understand they target the similar oil clearance as BE. That in combination with 1/3 price (over here) and predictable availability have made me decided to go with them. Hope to have found a good shop, although a significant distance away. Hope to sync calender with them during July. Exciting.

[GerrS65]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

...thanks Dean, my missunderstanding. Apparently ACL "should" have an extra clearance variant as well, will check if the shop made the same mistake.

Also, one of the shops claim they always reuse the OEM bolts, "since 30 years and on plenty S65/S85". These guys pay like $650 for a set of ARP so.... All I read says never to reuse the stretch bolts but as this shop is reputable Im getting confused. Comments?
(sorry to keep drain you guys on info but thankful)

Helms, I watched a DIY video on rod bearings that I believe you posted actually.. SYT SHADOW did the video. When they are talking about the bolts, they say the reason to use the ARP bolts is because of the torque procedure.. It was made very clear that they are 100X easier to install properly over OEM bolts.

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by GerrS65

Helms, I watched a DIY video on rod bearings that I believe you posted actually.. SYT SHADOW did the video. When they are talking about the bolts, they say the reason to use the ARP bolts is because of the torque procedure.. It was made very clear that they are 100X easier to install properly over OEM bolts.

It is actually 11 times easier

[GerrS65]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

It is actually 11 times easier

100X, 11X same thing. haha

[GerrS65]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

Doing some looking around, yes that seems to be the case. Had a chat with the fab and received specs, doesn't talk about shell variations (while taking journal and housing into account) but from what I understand they target the similar oil clearance as BE. Thact in combination with 1/3 price (over here) and predictable availability have made me decided to go with them. Hope to have found a good shop, although a significant distance away. Hope to sync calender with them during July. Exciting.

I would be super happy to hear from you after the install! let us know your feelings afterwords.

[Green-Eggs]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

Hey Green-Eggs, heard anything from Bert on his plans to measure the ACL shells? (nothing on their page yet).

Thanks

I don't know. We will see. I'll ping him about it again.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by Green-Eggs

I don't know. We will see. I'll ping him about it again.

Thanks mate, would still be really interesting to see what he comes up with.

[groovetek]

Hi Guys,

I have been talking to ACL here in Australia about which bearings to go for.

Correspondence is as follows:


The attachment showed the information below:

BMW S65B40 3999cc V8 2007 - 2013 8 - 92.00 x 75.20mm
M3 - E90, E92, E93
Set number and sizes Location Component Half Material OEM number Standard Standard Max. Wall Theoretical vertical Max.
Number Types Codes Shaft Size Tunnel size at crown Oil Clearance (pg V) Length
CONROD
8B1580H
Std, .025, .25 1580H IH F781 11247 841 702 51.975 / 51.991 56.000 / 56.013 1.998 .013 / .058 15.90
11247 841 703
8B1580HX
Std 1580HX IH F781 11247 841 702 51.975 / 51.991 56.000 / 56.013 1.985 .039 / .084 15.90
11247 841 703


So to all the M3 experts here, would the recommendation be to go with the 8B1580H or the 8B1580HX?

Thanks!

HI John,

Yes I am aware that these engines have had issues with bearing failures, and seems lack of clearance could be one contributing factor. Unfortunately I have not received a lot of feedback from the field as to what clearances are being used. We seem to be selling more 8B1580H-STD’s than HX’s.

Our usual recommendation for clearance is .00075-.001” per inch of journal, plus add another .0005” for high performance applications. So for the S65 at 52mm, we would be saying approx. .0015” - .002”, or .038 to .051mm. Add another .013mm and we are in the range .051 - .064mm. However this is just a guideline, I am aware some guys running high end engines run their clearances much finer than this. It will also depend on the actual measurements of your housing and shaft, and may be worth measuring these first before deciding on which bearings to go for. I have added 2 attachments, one with general info about the RACE Series product, which includes further info about oil clearances and installing etc. Please also note the section on mixing shells to further vary the clearance, ie using a H and a HX shell on the same journal, that may be an option if you think the HX’s will give too much clearance. The other lists the main dimensions of these parts, note the oil clearances listed are only theoretical min/max values given the shaft/housing tolerance ranges, they are not recommended values.

Lastly it may be worth talking to some workshops that have actually done these engines. I only have knowledge of one, that is Charlie Saliba at Saliba Engine Reconditioning at Springvale in Melbourne. He may be worth a call, his number is 03 9546 1733.

Best regards

Mark Shadbolt | Product Engineer
ACL Bearing Company (Australia) Pty. Ltd.
253 Georgetown Road | Rocherlea | Tasmania 7248 | Australia
PO Box 1088 | Launceston | Tasmania 7250 | Australia
Direct : +61 3 6326 0561 | Mobile : +61 427 710515
E mark.shadbolt@acl.com.au
W www.acl.com.au
www.aclperformance.com.au

From: j.lu@lumansystems.com <j.lu@lumansystems.com>
Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2018 8:54 AM
To: Mark Shadbolt <mark.shadbolt@acl.com.au>
Subject: RE: Form submission from the ACL Performance website

Hi Mark,

Thanks for your informative response. I guess I am keen to pre-emptively replace the rod bearings to prevent engine failure.

I’m not totally across the engineering/design behind bearing clearances however. Can you advise, given that there is quite a well-documented design “flaw”, would your recommendation be to go with the 8B1580HX-STD?

The data below is from m3post https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=892838, where most of the knowledge base on the BMW S65 rod bearing issues exist. If I read correctly, the nominal or average rod bearing clearance of the OEM BMW 088/089 bearings is 0.0343mm, with measured ranges between 0.0152 – 0.0533mm which seems like a wide variance.

So with the above in mind, with your 8B1580HX-STD, what is the effective “nominal” rod bearing clearance? Is it therefore 0.0343mm + 0.025mm = 0.0593mm or thereabouts? Is there a downside in your expert opinion in running with extra clearance (for instance would there be greater load on main bearings, which in recent years seems to be a weak point on these engines as well) or would you recommend your 8B1580H-STD product instead?

Thank you very much in advance for your expert advice.

----
Kind Regards,
John.


From: Mark Shadbolt <mark.shadbolt@acl.com.au>
Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2018 7:56 AM
To: j.lu@lumansystems.com
Subject: RE: Form submission from the ACL Performance website

Hi John,

We do offer a conrod set for the S65B40 V8 from the E90, E92 M3. Part number is 8B1580H.

As is usual with our RACE series parts we always offer an extra clearance version as well, part number for this is 8B1580HX-STD. This is the same in all respects except for a thinner wall size with the aim of offering 0.025mm extra oil clearance as compared to the 8B1580H-STD set. These are currently in stock. See the following link for distributors:

http://www.aclperformance.com.au/stockists_w.htm

Best regards

Mark Shadbolt | Product Engineer
ACL Bearing Company (Australia) Pty. Ltd.
253 Georgetown Road | Rocherlea | Tasmania 7248 | Australia
PO Box 1088 | Launceston | Tasmania 7250 | Australia
Direct : +61 3 6326 0561 | Mobile : +61 427 710515
E mark.shadbolt@acl.com.au
W www.acl.com.au
www.aclperformance.com.au


From: j.lu@lumansystems.com <j.lu@lumansystems.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 6 June 2018 9:58 PM
To: ACL Performance Information <aclperformance.info@acl.com.au>
Subject: Form submission from the ACL Performance website

Hi,

I'm looking to replace the known problematic rod bearings in my 2009 BMW E92 M3.

I've read about ACL offering increased clearance rod bearings, is this the case?

Thanks.

----
Kind Regards,
John.

[Green-Eggs]

Originally Posted by groovetek

Hi Guys,

I have been talking to ACL here in Australia about which bearings to go for.

Correspondence is as follows:


The attachment showed the information below:

BMW S65B40 3999cc V8 2007 - 2013 8 - 92.00 x 75.20mm
M3 - E90, E92, E93
Set number and sizes Location Component Half Material OEM number Standard Standard Max. Wall Theoretical vertical Max.
Number Types Codes Shaft Size Tunnel size at crown Oil Clearance (pg V) Length
CONROD
8B1580H
Std, .025, .25 1580H IH F781 11247 841 702 51.975 / 51.991 56.000 / 56.013 1.998 .013 / .058 15.90
11247 841 703
8B1580HX
Std 1580HX IH F781 11247 841 702 51.975 / 51.991 56.000 / 56.013 1.985 .039 / .084 15.90
11247 841 703


So to all the M3 experts here, would the recommendation be to go with the 8B1580H or the 8B1580HX?

Thanks!

HI John,

Yes I am aware that these engines have had issues with bearing failures, and seems lack of clearance could be one contributing factor. Unfortunately I have not received a lot of feedback from the field as to what clearances are being used. We seem to be selling more 8B1580H-STD’s than HX’s.

Our usual recommendation for clearance is .00075-.001” per inch of journal, plus add another .0005” for high performance applications. So for the S65 at 52mm, we would be saying approx. .0015” - .002”, or .038 to .051mm. Add another .013mm and we are in the range .051 - .064mm. However this is just a guideline, I am aware some guys running high end engines run their clearances much finer than this. It will also depend on the actual measurements of your housing and shaft, and may be worth measuring these first before deciding on which bearings to go for. I have added 2 attachments, one with general info about the RACE Series product, which includes further info about oil clearances and installing etc. Please also note the section on mixing shells to further vary the clearance, ie using a H and a HX shell on the same journal, that may be an option if you think the HX’s will give too much clearance. The other lists the main dimensions of these parts, note the oil clearances listed are only theoretical min/max values given the shaft/housing tolerance ranges, they are not recommended values.

Lastly it may be worth talking to some workshops that have actually done these engines. I only have knowledge of one, that is Charlie Saliba at Saliba Engine Reconditioning at Springvale in Melbourne. He may be worth a call, his number is 03 9546 1733.

Best regards

Mark Shadbolt | Product Engineer
ACL Bearing Company (Australia) Pty. Ltd.
253 Georgetown Road | Rocherlea | Tasmania 7248 | Australia
PO Box 1088 | Launceston | Tasmania 7250 | Australia
Direct : +61 3 6326 0561 | Mobile : +61 427 710515
E mark.shadbolt@acl.com.au
W www.acl.com.au
www.aclperformance.com.au

From: j.lu@lumansystems.com <j.lu@lumansystems.com>
Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2018 8:54 AM
To: Mark Shadbolt <mark.shadbolt@acl.com.au>
Subject: RE: Form submission from the ACL Performance website

Hi Mark,

Thanks for your informative response. I guess I am keen to pre-emptively replace the rod bearings to prevent engine failure.

I’m not totally across the engineering/design behind bearing clearances however. Can you advise, given that there is quite a well-documented design “flaw”, would your recommendation be to go with the 8B1580HX-STD?

The data below is from m3post https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=892838, where most of the knowledge base on the BMW S65 rod bearing issues exist. If I read correctly, the nominal or average rod bearing clearance of the OEM BMW 088/089 bearings is 0.0343mm, with measured ranges between 0.0152 – 0.0533mm which seems like a wide variance.

So with the above in mind, with your 8B1580HX-STD, what is the effective “nominal” rod bearing clearance? Is it therefore 0.0343mm + 0.025mm = 0.0593mm or thereabouts? Is there a downside in your expert opinion in running with extra clearance (for instance would there be greater load on main bearings, which in recent years seems to be a weak point on these engines as well) or would you recommend your 8B1580H-STD product instead?

Thank you very much in advance for your expert advice.

----
Kind Regards,
John.


From: Mark Shadbolt <mark.shadbolt@acl.com.au>
Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2018 7:56 AM
To: j.lu@lumansystems.com
Subject: RE: Form submission from the ACL Performance website

Hi John,

We do offer a conrod set for the S65B40 V8 from the E90, E92 M3. Part number is 8B1580H.

As is usual with our RACE series parts we always offer an extra clearance version as well, part number for this is 8B1580HX-STD. This is the same in all respects except for a thinner wall size with the aim of offering 0.025mm extra oil clearance as compared to the 8B1580H-STD set. These are currently in stock. See the following link for distributors:

http://www.aclperformance.com.au/stockists_w.htm

Best regards

Mark Shadbolt | Product Engineer
ACL Bearing Company (Australia) Pty. Ltd.
253 Georgetown Road | Rocherlea | Tasmania 7248 | Australia
PO Box 1088 | Launceston | Tasmania 7250 | Australia
Direct : +61 3 6326 0561 | Mobile : +61 427 710515
E mark.shadbolt@acl.com.au
W www.acl.com.au
www.aclperformance.com.au


From: j.lu@lumansystems.com <j.lu@lumansystems.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 6 June 2018 9:58 PM
To: ACL Performance Information <aclperformance.info@acl.com.au>
Subject: Form submission from the ACL Performance website

Hi,

I'm looking to replace the known problematic rod bearings in my 2009 BMW E92 M3.

I've read about ACL offering increased clearance rod bearings, is this the case?

Thanks.

----
Kind Regards,
John.

Here's the Cliff's notes of what he said: he confirmed what Bert@BE Bearings has been saying for the last couple of years.

[groovetek]

Sorry I am relatively new to the M3 world and not sure what you mean with your comment about Bert?

[pbonsalb]

He says the ACL bearing provide a little extra clearance like the BE bearings, and that extra clearance bearings are what you want for one of these motors.

[groovetek]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

He says the ACL bearing provide a little extra clearance like the BE bearings, and that extra clearance bearings are what you want for one of these motors.

Thanks. Looks like I'll go with the 8B1580HX then.

Seems cheap at less than AUD$200 from the shops here... That's like USD$150 or something.

[Majdi]

Originally Posted by groovetek

Thanks. Looks like I'll go with the 8B1580HX then.

Seems cheap at less than AUD$200 from the shops here... That's like USD$150 or something.

It was so hard to locate a vendor in USA for Acl bearings. Buying it directly from Acl was costing more than $300.00. I think I've finally located a supplier for Acl bearing is USA for a price that's unbeatable. I'm going to be doing a complete rod bearing job in the next few weeks. I'll post back here with part numbers and suppliers.

[groovetek]

Ok cool, my car goes in for servicing end of the month, so doing the ACL RBs with new OEM rod bolts, same time doing dct service, new pans, gaskets , liquimoly etc.

Hopefully all goes well. Switching back to TWS as well with the greater clearance RBs. Had been running Mobil1 5W-50.

[GerrS65]

Originally Posted by 4org1ve

It was so hard to locate a vendor in USA for Acl bearings. Buying it directly from Acl was costing more than $300.00. I think I've finally located a supplier for Acl bearing is USA for a price that's unbeatable. I'm going to be doing a complete rod bearing job in the next few weeks. I'll post back here with part numbers and suppliers.

Looking forward to the info! thanks

[Majdi]

Originally Posted by groovetek

Ok cool, my car goes in for servicing end of the month, so doing the ACL RBs with new OEM rod bolts, same time doing dct service, new pans, gaskets , liquimoly etc.

Hopefully all goes well. Switching back to TWS as well with the greater clearance RBs. Had been running Mobil1 5W-50.

Why OEM bolts? Get the ARP ones.