Used E90 M3 or EVO X

[Z K]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I had to comment on this, so sorry OP if this is slightly off topic

I strongly disagree the OEM M3 suspension is not good, regardless of what an aftermarket manufacturer says about it.
Most of the 'coilover' cars I've been in ride like absolute garbage as well.

So here's what I have
E92 ZCP with EDC. Owned since 0 miles.
E90 with passive suspension. Owned since 36k miles.

This is what I upgraded to:
E92 MCS 2WNR
E90 MCS 3W remote reservoir

So, these are what I consider 'real' coilovers, not the Ohlins R&T/KW v3, etc.

I can distinguish the 3W and the 2WNR damping quality yet I still think the stock ZCP EDC was an excellent all round solution. It worked on the track, it worked on the street, it worked everywhere with excellent results.

EDC may work for you and MCS makes some great stuff (true), that's your point of view.

The stock suspension is no where near that what your MCS offers or even on the level of an Ohlins or KW set up. At best, it is slightly better than the sport suspension on a regular 3 series.

Ohlins and KW are not "budget" - these are considered mid-high end solutions from companies with decades of racing experience. Just because they are mass market doesn't mean it's bad. BMW chose KW to develop the suspension system on the M4 GTS and KW partners with most German racing teams. Ohlins has a rich background in competition both on and off road. Not to mention, they are the OEM suspension manufacturer for Yamaha, Ducati, Aprila, BMW, Pagani, Lamborghini and Ferrari.

As I said, lack of rebound, lack of shock travel and the overall floating sensation of the EDC stock suspension is what makes it lacking from a performance standpoint. For a daily driving perspective, it probably doesn't make a big difference but on track it definitely does.

[BayAreasFinest]

I've owned an Evo 8, 9, & 10, '07 e92 335, and now a '12 e92 M3. All Evo's had every bolt on under the sun and full after market suspensions. My 10 had a FP Green and tuned on e85 and was the fastest of the bunch at 447 WHP. My 335 had full exhaust, intakes, tune and could not touch the 10. My M3 has a full exhaust, tune, intake, and springs. Unfortunately it could not touch my 10 either. From competing in auto-x events I can say the Evos handled better and were easier to drive at the limit (albeit my limit is probably 7/10s) in comparison to my M3. I can still drive an Evo faster than my M3.

With all that said my favorite car regardless of being down on power and speed is the M3. It's built better, looks better (subjective opinion), sounds better, feels better driving daily, and certainly more comfortable. With what I've done it's fast enough for me. Whenever I walk into the garage and see it the car it puts a smile on my face.

[Doc Oc]

Originally Posted by KawBoy

Interesting that you say "Only an idiot would pay $5k for an M3 exhaust". I've spent more than $5k on my exhaust and I don't think I am an idiot.

Dang for $5k I got test pipes, catback, tune, intake, cf driveshaft, and rims/tires. Each to his own though.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by BayAreasFinest

With all that said my favorite car regardless of being down on power and speed is the M3. It's built better, looks better (subjective opinion), sounds better, feels better driving daily, and certainly more comfortable. With what I've done it's fast enough for me. Whenever I walk into the garage and see it the car it puts a smile on my face.

I concur!

The Evo puts a smile on my face as well when I saw it in my garage as does the M3 but the BMW's every day livability and overall package is what makes it great. I can't best my old Evo in the M3 but it's fast enough for me.

[GT3fan]

Keep in mind the OP is looking for the more fun to drive car and doesn’t care about comfort or better daily driver.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by Z K

EDC may work for you and MCS makes some great stuff (true), that's your point of view.

The stock suspension is no where near that what your MCS offers or even on the level of an Ohlins or KW set up. At best, it is slightly better than the sport suspension on a regular 3 series.

Ohlins and KW are not "budget" - these are considered mid-high end solutions from companies with decades of racing experience. Just because they are mass market doesn't mean it's bad. BMW chose KW to develop the suspension system on the M4 GTS and KW partners with most German racing teams. Ohlins has a rich background in competition both on and off road. Not to mention, they are the OEM suspension manufacturer for Yamaha, Ducati, Aprila, BMW, Pagani, Lamborghini and Ferrari.

As I said, lack of rebound, lack of shock travel and the overall floating sensation of the EDC stock suspension is what makes it lacking from a performance standpoint. For a daily driving perspective, it probably doesn't make a big difference but on track it definitely does.

Interesting perspective, however I've never been in my car and felt it was 'floaty'. Perhaps your suspension is shot? It's similar to how people on this forum bemoan 'lack of torque' like 300lb/ft is somehow not enough to get moving briskly. It honestly feels like criticism for criticism's sake. A car like the M3 which is built to do it all is never going to have a fully track focused suspension setup out of the box, but now i'm stating the obvious

OP - Drive them both, buy the one you like better.

[Not Sure]

i had an evo 9 mr for almost 8 years. when the X came out, most of us with evo 8s/9s hated it b/c it was "dumbed down" for comfort and not nearly as hardcore. ironic.

[loveskiing]

This isn't even close...the M3's are out dated POS's, cost too much, have rod bearing/throttle actuator issues, and will soon be obsolete. Take the EVO...they're faster, easier to modify, cost less to maintain and are the superior vehicle in every way

[Z K]

Originally Posted by Montaver

Interesting perspective, however I've never been in my car and felt it was 'floaty'. Perhaps your suspension is shot? It's similar to how people on this forum bemoan 'lack of torque' like 300lb/ft is somehow not enough to get moving briskly. It honestly feels like criticism for criticism's sake. A car like the M3 which is built to do it all is never going to have a fully track focused suspension setup out of the box, but now i'm stating the obvious

OP - Drive them both, buy the one you like better.

As I mentioned a few posts earlier... you will not notice the difference outside of a track. The float I mention is there and it is due to lack of rebound in the stock suspension tuning - it is designed for comfort rather than handling. Just because the suspension feels "stiff" doesn't mean it handles well.

And no, my car had 10k miles when I purchased it from the dealer and the suspension is not "shot". Nor are the other ZCP M3s I've driven. BMW's tuning for all the recent M cars are geared towards every day driveability, not performance.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by Z K

As I mentioned a few posts earlier... you will not notice the difference outside of a track. The float I mention is there and it is due to lack of rebound in the stock suspension tuning - it is designed for comfort rather than handling. Just because the suspension feels "stiff" doesn't mean it handles well.

And no, my car had 10k miles when I purchased it from the dealer and the suspension is not "shot". Nor are the other ZCP M3s I've driven. BMW's tuning for all the recent M cars are geared towards every day driveability, not performance.

I think you missed the main point I was making. Your earlier posts claimed the stock suspension is 'terrible'. To say it has terrible suspension, particularly in comparison to an Evo, is complete hyperbole. Every day drivability and performance are not mutually exclusive.

But to your point, lets go back a generation and look at the E60 M5, E46 M3, and Z4M. Your telling me their stock suspension was all setup for track work out of the box? The track focused cars are M3 CSL and GTS flavours.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by Montaver

I think you missed the main point I was making. Your earlier posts claimed the stock suspension is 'terrible'. To say it has terrible suspension, particularly in comparison to an Evo, is complete hyperbole. Every day drivability and performance are not mutually exclusive.

But to your point, lets go back a generation and look at the E60 M5, E46 M3, and Z4M. Your telling me their stock suspension was all setup for track work out of the box? The track focused cars are M3 CSL and GTS flavours.

Yes and no, you had mentioned that the M3 stock suspension handles great... I beg to differ. It's "great" as a every day kind of suspension but fails at performance driving. So to qualify my comment about it being "terrible", it is terrible at handling. It is however not terrible for daily commuting.

And no, previous generation cars are not all great either. I think they were slightly better than the newer M cars. That's why we look to the aftermarket to fix the flaws of BMW's design.

[SDPLV]

Originally Posted by Munichm3

I remember driving an evo X, and while it was fast, it felt extremely unstable at high speeds... I’m talking 100+ while in the e9x, 100+ feels like you’re cruising

This.

[DSilk]

The Evo X took 7:58 to go round the Nurburgring, while the M3 GTS did it in 7:48. The e46 M3 CSL did it in 7:50. Enough said.

[GT3fan]

Originally Posted by DSilk

The Evo X took 7:58 to go round the Nurburgring, while the M3 GTS did it in 7:48. The e46 M3 CSL did it in 7:50. Enough said.

However, to put this into perspective, a standard 2008 m3 coupe had a laptime of 8:05 driven by Horst von Saurma per Sport Auto.

The GTS was a limited production 4.4 liter m3 that cost double the price of a standard m3.

[DSilk]

Originally Posted by AMG2M3

However, to put this into perspective, a standard 2008 m3 coupe had a laptime of 8:05 driven by Horst von Saurma per Sport Auto.

The GTS was a limited production 4.4 liter m3 that cost double the price of a standard m3.

And the Evo IX took 8:11.16... The point is that the stock M3 suspension is not as bad as the naysayers claim. You can make ANYTHING faster around a track by firming up the suspension, but most cars spend their lives on real world streets, where a compromise for comfort is required.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by AMG2M3

However, to put this into perspective, a standard 2008 m3 coupe had a laptime of 8:05 driven by Horst von Saurma per Sport Auto.

The GTS was a limited production 4.4 liter m3 that cost double the price of a standard m3.

This is true. Both the GTS and CSL were limited production cars.

The regular E92 M3 did 8:05 and the E46 M3 did 8:22.

A stock Mitsubishi Lancer Evo IX did a 8:11. The Evo is a bit under tired running 235 tires all around from the factory. Also, Evos have less than 300hp from the factory - the ring has some huge straight sections where high power cars can take advantage of. I don't think there's an official Evo X lap time but it should be very close to the E92 M3.

[GT3fan]

Originally Posted by DSilk

And the Evo IX took 8:11.16... The point is that the stock M3 suspension is not as bad as the naysayers claim. You can make ANYTHING faster around a track by firming up the suspension, but most cars spend their lives on real world streets, where a compromise for comfort is required.

I wasn’t questioning our m3s OEM suspensions. I actually have no complaints about EDC and think it’s near perfect for my personal needs.

Agree alomost anything can be made fast on a track especially if you compromise streetability.

[tooloud10]

Originally Posted by Montaver

Interesting perspective, however I've never been in my car and felt it was 'floaty'. Perhaps your suspension is shot? It's similar to how people on this forum bemoan 'lack of torque' like 300lb/ft is somehow not enough to get moving briskly. It honestly feels like criticism for criticism's sake. A car like the M3 which is built to do it all is never going to have a fully track focused suspension setup out of the box, but now i'm stating the obvious

OP - Drive them both, buy the one you like better.

Yeah, this whole debate is kind of ridiculous. The M3's suspension is about as track ready as the suspension on any of its competitors in the same price range. Could it be improved? Sure, all of this cars can be made better if you're willing to throw more money at them.

Just seems weird to me to pick on the M3's suspension as being 'terrible' on a track while ignoring that these are basically just near-luxury GT cars with multiple DVD players in the dash, a dozen power seat motors, etc. Hell, if someone is trying to use an E9x as that hard core of a track car, shouldn't we first question if such a vehicle should have power folding mirrors or electric headrests?