My E90 M3 Dedicated Track build (with pix!)

[M3 Number 86]

We got hands!

[roastbeef]

i'd be interested in seeing your whole lap! thats some great work.

as for tool lending, i generally don't have a problem with it, but i don't think i get asked as much as you do with the trailer and all... i think the trailer puts people in a different mindset when it comes to borrowing stuff.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by Datka

Dogbone, nice save there at 70mph.
For the first time ever I am going to test BFG R1S tires 275/285(I know you like these tires) and aero:APR 250 wing 61 inch, and self made splitter from epanel in addition to the lip, similar to yours.
Taking it to WGI with Group 52.
This is a very fast road course with high speed sweepers, I hear aero makes a difference on that track.
Any recommendations for R1S tire pressure, also I have never driven a car on the track with aero.

Aero+R1S is a very happy combination. I predict you will love it.

Regarding tire pressure for R1S---they DO NOT like high psi. They get nervous when the psi's get up to 38. I shoot for about 32psi hot. I start somewhere around 25-26 cold. Be aware that R1S needs a bit more warm up than a more street-oriented tire--at least first session of the day. If you start with a cold trailered car, I have found that 1 lap is not enough to warm up both brakes AND tires. If you try to warm up the tires, the brakes don't get enough heat. If you try to warm up brakes, the rear tires don't get warm and you'll get a nasty surprise (oversteer) launching out of the last turn trying to get going on your first hot lap. On a 2.7 mile course, I just need 2 laps in the AM to get going. Don't ignore that warm up.

[roastbeef]

i know you get asked this a zillion times, but how many days do you get out of a set of R1S's?

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

i know you get asked this a zillion times, but how many days do you get out of a set of R1S's?

I get between 14-16 heat cycles before one of the tires shows a minor cord. I keep the rest and put together scrub sets that can run 5-8 more heat cycles.

The first 10 heat cycles are really grippy.

Of course, this is affected by the car's weight, power and your lap times. Trinity Autosport was seeing more heat cycles with a lighter car--around 23 according to Joe.

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by Datka

Dogbone, nice save there at 70mph.
For the first time ever I am going to test BFG R1S tires 275/285(I know you like these tires) and aero:APR 250 wing 61 inch, and self made splitter from epanel in addition to the lip, similar to yours.
Taking it to WGI with Group 52.
This is a very fast road course with high speed sweepers, I hear aero makes a difference on that track.
Any recommendations for R1S tire pressure, also I have never driven a car on the track with aero.

My buddy Tim Strehl will be there either in Voodoo Blue 993 RSR tribute or GT3 RS. Have fun. I was there last month with Group52.

[nicksm3]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

My buddy Tim Strehl will be there either in Voodoo Blue 993 RSR tribute or GT3 RS. Have fun. I was there last month with Group52.

I'll be there at G52. I met Tim at last years event.. really nice guy and let me tell you...that 911 he has MOVES!!! The car is a work of art!

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by nicksm3

I'll be there at G52. I met Tim at last years event.. really nice guy and let me tell you...that 911 he has MOVES!!! The car is a work of art!

Great guy and great driver. He's the closest thing I have to a coach. He's helped me drop lap times quite a bit over the last couple of years.

[Dbcgolf1]

Awesome post and pictures. My wife almost fainted when I show it to her.,

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by Dbcgolf1

Awesome post and pictures. My wife almost fainted when I show it to her.,

hehe which image made her feel light headed? The pictures on Page 1 of the car being gutted? I'll be super bummed if the picture of me in the trailer made her feel sick....

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by dogbone

Aero+R1S is a very happy combination. I predict you will love it.

Regarding tire pressure for R1S---they DO NOT like high psi. They get nervous when the psi's get up to 38. I shoot for about 32psi hot. I start somewhere around 25-26 cold. Be aware that R1S needs a bit more warm up than a more street-oriented tire--at least first session of the day. If you start with a cold trailered car, I have found that 1 lap is not enough to warm up both brakes AND tires. If you try to warm up the tires, the brakes don't get enough heat. If you try to warm up brakes, the rear tires don't get warm and you'll get a nasty surprise (oversteer) launching out of the last turn trying to get going on your first hot lap. On a 2.7 mile course, I just need 2 laps in the AM to get going. Don't ignore that warm up.

+10000

Warm them up for sure or you get airborne lol

[Datka]

I don't know if you Cali guys have been at WGI, but after one warm up lap you are good to go. But this time I am going to take your advice and will take it easy for two laps. Especially when running these tires and aero for the first time.
BTW, if anyone reading this has never been at this track, I would highly recommend it.

[Datka]

Originally Posted by nicksm3

I'll be there at G52. I met Tim at last years event.. really nice guy and let me tell you...that 911 he has MOVES!!! The car is a work of art!

Will be nice to see another E9x m3 on this track. Come say hello, I will be in silver e92m3.

[nicksm3]

Originally Posted by Datka

Will be nice to see another E9x m3 on this track. Come say hello, I will be in silver e92m3.

Yes totally man!! Let's pray for beautiful weather! I can't wait

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by Datka

I don't know if you Cali guys have been at WGI, but after one warm up lap you are good to go. But this time I am going to take your advice and will take it easy for two laps. Especially when running these tires and aero for the first time.
BTW, if anyone reading this has never been at this track, I would highly recommend it.

It just depends on the tire and the situation.

If a person drives their car to the track, runs on Pilot Super Sports and it's 70ºF in the AM, then the brakes are already warm from the drive to the track and PSS don't need any warm up. Even if that person ran a more performance oriented tire that needs some warm up, the brakes would already be warmed up so they could mostly concentrate on the tires. The brakes would just need a couple solid presses.

If a person trailers their car, runs on an R1S or a hard compound slick and it's 48ºF at the start.....different situation. Better warm all that stuff up.

Later in the day, once the car has been run on track, I don't need two laps of warm up. Even after long rest periods, the brakes come up to temp very quickly, so I concentrate on getting some heat into those tires and I'm good to go after one lap.

Also, with 15-30 other cars on track with you, you can't just be dragging your brakes and over-slowing before a turn or jamming your brakes suddenly on the middle of a straight with no warning while trying to warm things up. You'll cause havoc out there. So, it's better to be patient, and at least for that first session of the day, get two laps in.

Anyway, I'm only saying all this so that people don't just jump on the gas with a tire like an R1S or a Michelin slick when it's cold because I can tell you from firsthand experience what happens. The rear of the car steps out, and you ain't getting it back. Spin City. And at a track like Buttonwillow, aero won't help save you because the final turn onto the straight is around 60mph, so the aero isn't doing much.

Once those R1S's warm up though-----life is good.


I would love to get a taste of some East Coast tracks (and COTA). But I want to do stuff like that in my car, so-----do I smell ROAD TRIP?!!

[roastbeef]

we need to rent a dodge ram mega cab with a four car goose neck trailer. four cars, four dudes... and hit the road to COTA!

drive in shifts, no stops until austin.

[Datka]

Originally Posted by dogbone

It just depends on the tire and the situation.

If a person drives their car to the track, runs on Pilot Super Sports and it's 70ºF in the AM, then the brakes are already warm from the drive to the track and PSS don't need any warm up. Even if that person ran a more performance oriented tire that needs some warm up, the brakes would already be warmed up so they could mostly concentrate on the tires. The brakes would just need a couple solid presses.

If a person trailers their car, runs on an R1S or a hard compound slick and it's 48ºF at the start.....different situation. Better warm all that stuff up.

Later in the day, once the car has been run on track, I don't need two laps of warm up. Even after long rest periods, the brakes come up to temp very quickly, so I concentrate on getting some heat into those tires and I'm good to go after one lap.

Also, with 15-30 other cars on track with you, you can't just be dragging your brakes and over-slowing before a turn or jamming your brakes suddenly on the middle of a straight with no warning while trying to warm things up. You'll cause havoc out there. So, it's better to be patient, and at least for that first session of the day, get two laps in.

Anyway, I'm only saying all this so that people don't just jump on the gas with a tire like an R1S or a Michelin slick when it's cold because I can tell you from firsthand experience what happens. The rear of the car steps out, and you ain't getting it back. Spin City. And at a track like Buttonwillow, aero won't help save you because the final turn onto the straight is around 60mph, so the aero isn't doing much.

Once those R1S's warm up though-----life is good.


I would love to get a taste of some East Coast tracks (and COTA). But I want to do stuff like that in my car, so-----do I smell ROAD TRIP?!!

After some reading about these tires it does look like they are very sensitive to ambient temp., ground temp, tire pressure, ect.
Here are some observations from another forum race team member about BFG R1 S:

"There are several factors to consider. Er have not used Hoosiers on our car but can give a lot of feedback on the bfg. Here are the things to be aware of when using the Bfg r1s

1. They love heat and it is very difficult to over heat them.
2. They are optimal with ambient temps above 65-70 degrees with hot ground temps
3. They have no grip in colder temps as we found out in new jersey at the pro. Ambient temps were 50-58 degrees on Saturday and 37-45 degrees on Sunday.
4. They must be scrubbed in before they come to life. They have absolutely no grip when new/sticker. Either put a couple runs on them in a test course and let them heat cycle or take them for a drive and get them up to temp and let them heat cycle
5. They rarely overheat or require cooling.
Since we switched we have rarely used our sprayer and that is in south Florida weather typically 80-100 degrees with two drivers and usually about 5-6 runs each driver on a 40-65 sec course

This is on a bsp s2000 using 275/35/18 on 18x11 wheels"

I know,different car, much lighter, but r-compound characteristics should be the same I think.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by Datka

After some reading about these tires it does look like they are very sensitive to ambient temp., ground temp, tire pressure, ect.
Here are some observations from another forum race team member about BFG R1 S:

"There are several factors to consider. Er have not used Hoosiers on our car but can give a lot of feedback on the bfg. Here are the things to be aware of when using the Bfg r1s

1. They love heat and it is very difficult to over heat them.
2. They are optimal with ambient temps above 65-70 degrees with hot ground temps
3. They have no grip in colder temps as we found out in new jersey at the pro. Ambient temps were 50-58 degrees on Saturday and 37-45 degrees on Sunday.
4. They must be scrubbed in before they come to life. They have absolutely no grip when new/sticker. Either put a couple runs on them in a test course and let them heat cycle or take them for a drive and get them up to temp and let them heat cycle
5. They rarely overheat or require cooling.
Since we switched we have rarely used our sprayer and that is in south Florida weather typically 80-100 degrees with two drivers and usually about 5-6 runs each driver on a 40-65 sec course

This is on a bsp s2000 using 275/35/18 on 18x11 wheels"

I know,different car, much lighter, but r-compound characteristics should be the same I think.

Nice feedback on the R1S from the S2000 guys. I would agree with much of it.

The one point where I would differ with their comments is when they said that the R1S doesn't grip in 50-58ºF temps. I have run my fastest laps on them when it was mid-50's temps. I'll guess that my car is heavier and has more power, so perhaps it's easier for me to get heat into them. I would agree that in the 40's and below, it's just damn hard to get good grip, but I don't think that's unique to the R1S. With my car in particular, having the blower, the blower LOVES cool air. It launches like a rocket in cool air. But you need to find the cross section where the engine pulls like a monster and the tires have grip. For my car, I have found that to be in the low/mid 50's. Colder than 50º, the engine is super happy, but there's just no grip in the track and tires. Once you get in the 60's, the tires provide a bit more grip, but the engine doesn't pull as hard.

The thing you REALLY have to watch is the "cold" psi's as the ambient temps rise during the day. You have to monitor those psi's. Occasionally I get a bit lazy. The car drove great the 1st session, and I get distracted doing whatever and ambient temps are sneaky and start rising 10-15º, the sun comes out in earnest and everything warms up between sessions. I'll leave the tire psi's where they were in the early AM and go drive. The next thing you know, the car feels nervous......what's going on? I'll you what. I'm a lazy idiot. I come in and the tires at 38 psi. Well that was waste of gas, tires and brakes.....dang it!

I agree with the S2000 guys about not being able to overheat R1S's----AS LONG as they are not overinflated while they are hot. In this regard, the R1S is very very formidable---very much like a hard compound slick. You can pound on them lap after lap, and they're fine.

[Datka]

The only thing I am not sure about now is the tire pressure. I know you said you like to start 25 cold and the hot temp. target is 32.
Honestly, it seems a bit low for me, at least for my car, as its not as light as yours I think.
I did, manage to remove about 120 pounds from the car, but its still heavy, with radio, heater, AC, full interior minus passenger and rear seats...

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by Datka

The only thing I am not sure about now is the tire pressure. I know you said you like to start 25 cold and the hot temp. target is 32.
Honestly, it seems a bit low for me, at least for my car, as its not as light as yours I think.
I did, manage to remove about 120 pounds from the car, but its still heavy, with radio, heater, AC, full interior minus passenger and rear seats...

When my car was full weight (3675 lbs, no fuel, no driver), I ran Hankook TD at 25 psi cold for years. Remember, it doesn't stay there for long. The psi's go up fairly rapidly. Just don't get on berms on your first lap. It'll be fine. Don't overthink it.

You will be angry with yourself if you're just throwing away the best laps of the tires because the psi's are super high and the car is nervous.

[dogbone]

EDIT: I meant 3675 lbs in the post above for my car weight. (I'll fix it.) I had not removed a single thing out of the car to lighten it. And I had a supercharger that made the car even heavier.

Anyway, my car was heavy and had a lot of power, and it was fine going out at 25 psi on TD's.

[okusa]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

we need to rent a dodge ram mega cab with a four car goose neck trailer. four cars, four dudes... and hit the road to COTA!

drive in shifts, no stops until austin.

Count me in...for the trailer part, but I'll fly and meet you there.