Track forum general chit chat.

[ban25]

Originally Posted by dogbone

(just so you know, DSC uses the front brakes 99.99% of the time and was shortening the life of my front pads significantly. I have extensive AIM Solo DL data that shows this. DSC rarely uses the rear brakes. I talked about this and showed data pix in this post: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...7&postcount=27 )

Great analysis! It makes sense that the front calipers would get the most use to help induce understeer. I may have to bite the bullet and get an AIM Solo at some point because I would love to have brake caliper telemetry and I can't get it from ODB.

[macdude357]

Originally Posted by NoCarrier

Really fun day at ACS. It was cool to meet roastbeef and macdude357. After some good tips from roastbeef I shaved a couple seconds off my times in the last session and got a couple laps in the 1:57s. I know there's a lot more speed to be found but I was happy with my progress my first time out there.

Couple unfortunate things. My GoPro flew off the car mid-session. No chance of ever recovering that because the facility is so massive. And it would appear that my front right outer brake pad wore completely through so it's backing plate on rotor at the moment. Need to investigate this evening. Very odd since they were brand new pads and there is plenty of meat visible on the other three corners.

Yes, it was a fun day. Glad the rain stayed away for the most part. It was fun following you around that one session. It was interesting to see where you were a bit faster and where I was a bit faster.

It was my first time at that track and I have to say that I really liked it. You do get a ton of track time with Speed District. Will definitely sign up for another event from them.

<rant>Gotta say though, I'm really beginning to dislike Corvette drivers. There was a guy in the intermediate driver's meeting that kept interjecting stuff like "I usually drive in advanced..." and "I like to stay up high in the oval so I might not see someone's point by", yada yada. So during one of the sessions, I was stuck behind a guy in an F-Type and a Corvette came up on me. I was no sooner by the F-Type and the Corvette's flashing his lights at me wanting a point by. So, I'm thinking Corvette's are pretty fast so I'll let him by. Well, he went by and proceeded to hold me up. The only reason he stayed in front was that he cut one of the turns off and I got a little lose in another turn. A lap later he was trying so hard to stay in front of me he want off into the dirt after coming off the oval. Sheesh, if you're going to flash your lights, you better be damned sure your faster. You can guess who the driver was...yup, the loud mouth from the drivers meeting.</rant>

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by macdude357

<rant>Gotta say though, I'm really beginning to dislike Corvette drivers. There was a guy in the intermediate driver's meeting that kept interjecting stuff like "I usually drive in advanced..." and "I like to stay up high in the oval so I might not see someone's point by", yada yada. So during one of the sessions, I was stuck behind a guy in an F-Type and a Corvette came up on me. I was no sooner by the F-Type and the Corvette's flashing his lights at me wanting a point by. So, I'm thinking Corvette's are pretty fast so I'll let him by. Well, he went by and proceeded to hold me up. The only reason he stayed in front was that he cut one of the turns off and I got a little lose in another turn. A lap later he was trying so hard to stay in front of me he want off into the dirt after coming off the oval. Sheesh, if you're going to flash your lights, you better be damned sure your faster. You can guess who the driver was...yup, the loud mouth from the drivers meeting.</rant>

yea, the older dude in the cutoff tshirt? he's slow and just likes to talk a lot. i've been to another track day with him and it was the same song and dance. lots of questions and scenario talk that is/will be covered in the driver's meeting.

i had my first douche experience at the track sunday. brand new mercedes c63 gets into the garage next to mine while i'm out in my first session. so i pull back into the garage and my girlfriend tells me the guys in the mercedes want me to move my stuff. so i look over and two of my tires are stacked neatly against the wall, about halfway in between our general garage space. i'm pretty personable and easy going- if i saw my neighbor offloading their car i would move my stuff to make sure they had more than enough room and bring extra drinks in my cooler to offer to my new track friends. turns out- they didn't have anything to offload. they had a couple of grocery bags of small items and a water bottle or two (one of which they left behind at the end of the day). so i get the vibe they didn't want any of my stuff next to their space (that they weren't using). whatever.
so they pull out of the garage to go on their run and i mention to my girlfriend that they just don't quite understand the track culture and not to worry about it (she was a little irritated). i also mentioned the mercedes would probably be wrecked by the end of the day (they just seemed to not have a clue).
so it comes to lunch time and we pickup some food and start eating. one of the dudes comes and asks if i have any tools. so i'm thinking in my head, "you want to borrow the tools you wanted me to move away from the space you aren't using?" but i kept it cordial and lent him some pliers which he used to clip a piece of rubber or something off one of his rear tires. girlfriend kinda rolls her eyes and i just shrug my shoulders.
so the next time i come back from a session the mercedes is missing and one of the dudes is on the phone and pacing around in the garage. sure enough, a tow truck brings the mercedes around with a blown out front tire and fubar front fender/bumper. dude did some landscaping somewhere. still looked drivable, but the tire was coming off of the wheel. i would have changed it for him, but he didn't have a spare. girlfriend couldn't believe i offered. lol

anyways, plenty of garage space after that.

[redpriest]

That is pretty jerky - and you pretty much called it, blown front tire = ouch!

[roastbeef]

i was mildly annoyed by their arrogant vibe, but it definitely didn't ruin the great day.

[elim11]

Karma and darwin laws are usually highly enforced at the track

[///Mobbin]

I'm sure that was frustrating, props to you for being bigger than the situation (it's hard to do that sometimes), maybe he took note. And LOL at the corvette rant. At COTA an F80 M3 wouldn't give me a pass for multiple laps, he would pull away from me slightly on the straights but that was it, frustrating. Not sure if this is folks being newer to the track and in the wrong run groups or if they aren't paying attention. Hard to do that for 2 full laps though ...

[Jive]

Originally Posted by dogbone

Go to a skid pad and slide around! To safely drive a car on track without DSC, you have to know how to deal with moments where you go beyond the grip limit of the tires.

A skid pad (or even autocross) is the best way start building the skills to deal with a car past the grip limit. It sucks and is dangerous to just spin the car a bunch of times on track with other cars around. And quite honestly, you don't learn much from a high speed spin on track because you're freaking out on the spin---not concentrating on the reasons for the spin. About all you learn is that you have to take it a little easier there. But that doesn't teach you the skills to catch a slide. So, that's the worst way to learn.

If you live in the Bay Area, go to Sonoma Raceway for their Wednesday Drags and Drifts nights. https://www.sonomaraceway.com/track/sonoma_drift/

Start sliding the car around in a safe legal environment. It's fun as heck.

For the SoCal guys, Willow Springs has the Balcony Skid Pad. If you get a membership to the track (cheap), you can use the skid pad for pretty cheap. I learned quite a bit on that skid pad.

The goal on a skid pad is to start to learn the feeling of the car losing grip. That's what DSC is preventing----you going past the tires' grip limit. Then, as you learn that floating feel as the rear starts to get away from you, you start practicing how to catch it. This is a specific skill. There is no other way to learn it than doing it. Knowing how to use the gas pedal, along with managing the steering wheel and feeling the balance of the car while it's sliding is a lot of physical sensations and a lot of limbs in action at once. Spinning on track does not teach you the steps to counteract grip loss. You need to induce it in a safe environment and then learn to catch it. The first day I went to the Balcony Skid Pad at Willow Springs, I had no clue how catch the car. I was beyond terrible. But I left at the end of that day with a basic understanding of how to do it. I went a couple more times, and became pretty good at it. I can catch things pretty decently now if necessary, but I think more importantly, I understand the feeling of that "floating" rear end as the car is about to let go back there. Knowing THAT sensation and adjusting quickly can keep you from losing the rear in the first place.

Very helpful response, thanks!

Anyone going out to Sonoma with HoD on Black Friday?

[macdude357]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

yea, the older dude in the cutoff tshirt?

Yup, that's the one.

Bummer about running out of tires. There were only a handful of cars in the last bonus session so there was plenty of room on the track.

[NoCarrier]

Here's the post-mortem on my brake pads. Very little wear on three of the front pads, and one is just gone. I'm a bit baffled as to how this is even possible. I'm wondering if the pad just detached entirely. The piston is moving fine and the caliper is sliding fine on the pins. I could understand if the caliper was seized on the pins and the piston was only pushing the inside pad against the disc, but this was the outside pad. I'm stumped, not to mention disappointed that my rotor is ruined.

[NoCarrier]

Originally Posted by macdude357

Yes, it was a fun day. Glad the rain stayed away for the most part. It was fun following you around that one session. It was interesting to see where you were a bit faster and where I was a bit faster.

It was my first time at that track and I have to say that I really liked it. You do get a ton of track time with Speed District. Will definitely sign up for another event from them.

<rant>Gotta say though, I'm really beginning to dislike Corvette drivers. There was a guy in the intermediate driver's meeting that kept interjecting stuff like "I usually drive in advanced..." and "I like to stay up high in the oval so I might not see someone's point by", yada yada. So during one of the sessions, I was stuck behind a guy in an F-Type and a Corvette came up on me. I was no sooner by the F-Type and the Corvette's flashing his lights at me wanting a point by. So, I'm thinking Corvette's are pretty fast so I'll let him by. Well, he went by and proceeded to hold me up. The only reason he stayed in front was that he cut one of the turns off and I got a little lose in another turn. A lap later he was trying so hard to stay in front of me he want off into the dirt after coming off the oval. Sheesh, if you're going to flash your lights, you better be damned sure your faster. You can guess who the driver was...yup, the loud mouth from the drivers meeting.</rant>

Yeah it was fun to play chase. I hope I wasn't holding you up at any point. I wanted to let you by so I could chase you for a couple laps but then I had my little off-track incident.

All I'll say about Mr. No Sleeves is that when he kept interrupting the drivers' meeting my first thought was "I guarantee he's a Corvette guy."

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by macdude357

Yup, that's the one.

Bummer about running out of tires. There were only a handful of cars in the last bonus session so there was plenty of room on the track.

yea, on saturday at the end session, there were only a few cars on track. it was a combo of the balding tires, light sprinkle of rain, and being tired from two days of fun that made me call it a day.
the corvette guy seems to be nice, but is just one of those people that has a story for you for everything and wants to share track stories in the driver's meetings.

Originally Posted by NoCarrier

Here's the post-mortem on my brake pads. Very little wear on three of the front pads, and one is just gone. I'm a bit baffled as to how this is even possible. I'm wondering if the pad just detached entirely. The piston is moving fine and the caliper is sliding fine on the pins. I could understand if the caliper was seized on the pins and the piston was only pushing the inside pad against the disc, but this was the outside pad. I'm stumped, not to mention disappointed that my rotor is ruined.

its a problem with the caliper... same thing that happened to another guy. i'll try to find the thread that i told you about.

[NoCarrier]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

its a problem with the caliper... same thing that happened to another guy. i'll try to find the thread that i told you about.

Is it this one? http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=20511187

I read this and some other articles and it makes sense now. The caliper is not floating freely enough to fully release the outer pad from the rotor after lifting off the brakes. I'm going to use his method of checking temperatures to see if the problem persists. I wonder if replacing the guide pins with the solid ones would help.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by NoCarrier

Is it this one? http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=20511187

I read this and some other articles and it makes sense now. The caliper is not floating freely enough to fully release the outer pad from the rotor after lifting off the brakes. I'm going to use his method of checking temperatures to see if the problem persists. I wonder if replacing the guide pins with the solid ones would help.

Yep that's it.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by Jive

How do you guys know when you are ready to upgrade tires compounds or turn off MDM/TC (exclusive of one another). Been thinking about this one for a while. I imagine turning off the TC will initially result in slower lap times due to extra caution. I suspect it is a humbling experience to spin out or go off the track with TC off.

i'm not sure i'll ever be 100% TC off. i suppose its due to the fact that i haven't gotten to the point where i feel like its holding me back. there is plenty of room for improvement on my part before i can say i'm limited. i'm also not doing this to compete seriously. yea, we have our friendly competitions and rivalries going (its a good thing), but at the end of the day, i'm not winning anything or advancing my racing career, so chancing damaging the car or my safety just isn't worth it to me.
that said, there are some courses i wouldn't be opposed to turning off traction control to gain some experience- but i wouldn't do it at auto club (high speeds/walls) or willow springs (unmaintained desert off the track).

am i stumping my learning curve? maybe. am i still having a great time at the track? hell yea.

[YMB_M3]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

i'm not sure i'll ever be 100% TC off. i suppose its due to the fact that i haven't gotten to the point where i feel like its holding me back. there is plenty of room for improvement on my part before i can say i'm limited. i'm also not doing this to compete seriously. yea, we have our friendly competitions and rivalries going (its a good thing), but at the end of the day, i'm not winning anything or advancing my racing career, so chancing damaging the car or my safety just isn't worth it to me.
that said, there are some courses i wouldn't be opposed to turning off traction control to gain some experience- but i wouldn't do it at auto club (high speeds/walls) or willow springs (unmaintained desert off the track).

am i stumping my learning curve? maybe. am i still having a great time at the track? hell yea.

Does your MDM not flash/interfere like crazy on the roval? First time i went to ACS I had euro mdm on for the first couple of laps and it was really unsettling the car- very scary at those speeds honestly.

My #1 priority is also safety and getting my car back in one piece, especially since I don't purchase track insurance. That being said, I believe that at a certain level driving with DSC off is more safe than euro mdm because I feel like I have more control over the car at a fast pace, but I might be lying to myself because I always turn it off now. I've actually had way less offs with DSC off (and a faster pace) than with euro mdm. Most of that is probably due to driver improvement but I also attribute some of that to having control of throttle (and no braking being done by the traction control) in sticky situations. Yes this sounds kind of crazy, but I think that euro mdm intervention in the past (when I was less experienced) has been the reason that I was forced to go off track in the case of a minor driver mistake a few times.

IMO driving with DSC off and a slower comfortable pace and building up speed is much more enjoyable than with euro MDM because of how restrictive it is. That being said, euro mdm may be different in the e9x platform than in the f8x.
I'd definitely recommend hitting a skid pad and seeing how easy it is to control this car with DSC off, I expected it to be much more difficult before trying it out.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by YMB_M3

Does your MDM not flash/interfere like crazy on the roval? First time i went to ACS I had euro mdm on for the first couple of laps and it was really unsettling the car- very scary at those speeds honestly.

My #1 priority is also safety and getting my car back in one piece, especially since I don't purchase track insurance. That being said, I believe that at a certain level driving with DSC off is more safe than euro mdm because I feel like I have more control over the car at a fast pace, but I might be lying to myself because I always turn it off now. I've actually had way less offs with DSC off (and a faster pace) than with euro mdm. Most of that is probably due to driver improvement but I also attribute some of that to having control of throttle (and no braking being done by the traction control) in sticky situations. Yes this sounds kind of crazy, but I think that euro mdm intervention in the past (when I was less experienced) has been the reason that I was forced to go off track in the case of a minor driver mistake a few times.

IMO driving with DSC off and a slower comfortable pace and building up speed is much more enjoyable than with euro MDM because of how restrictive it is. That being said, euro mdm may be different in the e9x platform than in the f8x.
I'd definitely recommend hitting a skid pad and seeing how easy it is to control this car with DSC off, I expected it to be much more difficult before trying it out.

it might be flashing, but i'm not looking down. i don't notice any mdm intervention on the roval. its one of the few parts of ACS that i think i do well at- its pretty smooth. there have been a few times where i made mistakes and felt mdm on the roval, but it wasn't serious, just limited throttle when i got on it too soon and was scrubbing. i tried going through the roval barely lifting once and it was just too much and i started scrubbing. i'm sure its just mdm preventing oversteer though, my car behaves pretty neutral with normal track driving.
it may be more intrusive for you because you have more power/torque.

[YMB_M3]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

it might be flashing, but i'm not looking down. i don't notice any mdm intervention on the roval. its one of the few parts of ACS that i think i do well at- its pretty smooth. there have been a few times where i made mistakes and felt mdm on the roval, but it wasn't serious, just limited throttle when i got on it too soon and was scrubbing. i tried going through the roval barely lifting once and it was just too much and i started scrubbing. i'm sure its just mdm preventing oversteer though, my car behaves pretty neutral with normal track driving.
it may be more intrusive for you because you have more power/torque.

Interesting, my car would feel like its wiggling side to side even off power in the roval- I thought the banking was confusing the traction control because I wasn't even going that fast.
The Euro MDM must be much better on the e9x platform or I got a dud euro mdm code lol

[roastbeef]

car wiggling doesn't seem right. i'm just running regular mdm- no euro.

[hayes180]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

That's a lot of air! Did you botch the turn?

Nope apparently thats "the line" at T Hill West.. Either way it was awesome. The landing sucked overtime with the stock seats and a 3pt seatbelt... which reminds me.. I think I'm gonna pull the trigger and put in a bolt in half cage/harness bar and seats

[hayes180]

Oct and November was pretty busy for me in terms of track time doing 4 days in roughly 5 weekends. Before i would go once a month or once every month and a half. Taking advantage of the nice weather we've had in northern cali so far. Anyways here's some pictures fromLaguna 2 x and Sonoma (1st time) also passed the 430 .. T Hill not posted here but i previously posted a picture of me getting some air haha

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by hayes180

Oct and November was pretty busy for me in terms of track time doing 4 days in roughly 5 weekends. Before i would go once a month or once every month and a half. Taking advantage of the nice weather we've had in northern cali so far. Anyways here's some pictures fromLaguna 2 x and Sonoma (1st time) also passed the 430 .. T Hill not posted here but i previously posted a picture of me getting some air haha

what event coordinator did you go with to laguna seca?