Custom Clevite Rod Bearings

[FazerBoy]

Originally Posted by 5soko

Fast attack motorsports is doing international shipping

Their site states that they have already sold out of their first batch...

I was waiting for a group buy to be announced on here - is that going to happen?

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by FazerBoy

Their site states that they have already sold out of their first batch...

I was waiting for a group buy to be announced on here - is that going to happen?

The group buy is still in the works.

[kaede]

NOOB Question! I read through basically the whole thread, but could some of you help me understand a little bit better?

So what is so different with these "custom" bearings then say the EAS WPC coated ones? I understand the EAS WPC set is OEM bearings with a special coat that decreases friction - thus, less wear. But less wear will eventually mean that they will still gotta be replaced, and additional coating on oem bearing (which already have tight clearances) only decrease the clearance more?

Will be looking at bearing replacement option soon! Super interested.

So with these custom bearings, are the technically spec'ed to have more clearance and thats all? Thanks! Cheers!

[tdott]

Originally Posted by kaede

NOOB Question! I read through basically the whole thread, but could some of you help me understand a little bit better?

So what is so different with these "custom" bearings then say the EAS WPC coated ones? I understand the EAS WPC set is OEM bearings with a special coat that decreases friction - thus, less wear. But less wear will eventually mean that they will still gotta be replaced, and additional coating on oem bearing (which already have tight clearances) only decrease the clearance more?

Will be looking at bearing replacement option soon! Super interested.

So with these custom bearings, are the technically spec'ed to have more clearance and thats all? Thanks! Cheers!

Yes, read here for more details:
http://www.bebearings.com/Overview.html

[WJSM5]

Originally Posted by tdott

Yes, read here for more details:
http://www.bebearings.com/Overview.html

Interesting article. So to my understanding the WPC bearings are the way to go? It seems these redesigned bearings showed extremely minor size changes making them..indifferent? Also as far as oil goes is it worth trying thinner oils?

[okusa]

Originally Posted by WJSM5

Interesting article. So to my understanding the WPC bearings are the way to go? It seems these redesigned bearings showed extremely minor size changes making them..indifferent? Also as far as oil goes is it worth trying thinner oils?

[tdott]

Originally Posted by WJSM5

Interesting article. So to my understanding the WPC bearings are the way to go?
Also as far as oil goes is it worth trying thinner oils?

This page addresses the WPC bearings and your thinner oil question:
http://www.bebearings.com/PreviousAttempts.html

Originally Posted by WJSM5

So to my understanding the WPC bearings are the way to go? It seems these redesigned bearings showed extremely minor size changes making them..indifferent?

Read the top of the overview page again, that is not the conclusion experienced engine builders come to, while you may think it's a minor change in terms of finite numbers, it is the difference between a clearance that falls within the norms and that manufactures of the bearings themselves actually recommend vs the OEM bearings which are outside of industry standards (too little clearance).

or here I will spoon feed you:

Take aways of this article:
- Your engine was designed oil journal clearance that is too small.
- White papers from Clevite and other bearing manufacturers establish best practice measurements.
- The journal clearance differs from these long established industy best practices.
- Measurements confirm the clearance issue
- When oil clearance is too small, bearing failure is the natural result.
- Photo journal shows the detrimental effects

[WJSM5]

Originally Posted by okusa

Not sure why'd you be hitting yourself over the head...

[tdott]

Originally Posted by WJSM5

Not sure why'd you be hitting yourself over the head...

Perhaps you missed the part where WPC bearings are just OEM bearings with a WPC coating.

Hence not solving the clearance problem......

[Doc Oc]

Treatment, not coating. They micro-peen the surface of the bearing to harden it and "slick it up" a bit. Nothing added to it though.

[WJSM5]

Originally Posted by tdott

Perhaps you missed the part where WPC bearings are just OEM bearings with a WPC coating.

Hence not solving the clearance problem......

But wouldn't it be considered my best option because the extra protection from the WPC even though reducing clearance by 16% should lead to less friction and wear. If I opted for the bearings which give .0000XX more clearance then I would assume WPC coated bearing provide a better short term solution. Seeing there is no long term solution...

[Doc Oc]

Going with the new be bearings is probably your best option. Definitely more clearance than wpc plus the benefits of the calico coating and the benefits of having a lead bearing underneath the coating which is great for uoa. I'd wait as long as possible though and let some other folks Guinea pig them for you.

[pbonsalb]

I am not sure the Take Aways reprint is accurate.

I believe I have read the VAC Clevite bearings were designed with more clearance.

There is no proof that WPC coating is a short term stopgap measure, unless people have been removing them and finding premature wear or engine damage. My stock bearings went 60k before I replaced them as preventative maintenance. I expect the WPC bearings to go at least that long. That is more than short term stopgap to me.

Thinner oils certainly help if the theory is clearance is tight. There is no proof this is a stopgap without a solution. The only concern to me is that thinner oils probably cannot stand up to track use and may not stand up to BMW's recommended 15k mile oil changes (though I am not sure any oil is good for that change interval).

That said, were I buying bearings today, I would lean towards the bebearings. I also like the fact that, like the VAC Clevite bearings, they are lead/copper based, unlike new stock bearings whether WPC treated or not.

[Doc Oc]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I am not sure the Take Aways reprint is accurate.

I believe I have read the VAC Clevite bearings were designed with more clearance.

There is no proof that WPC coating is a short term stopgap measure, unless people have been removing them and finding premature wear or engine damage. My stock bearings went 60k before I replaced them as preventative maintenance. I expect the WPC bearings to go at least that long. That is more than short term stopgap to me.

Thinner oils certainly help if the theory is clearance is tight. There is no proof this is a stopgap without a solution. The only concern to me is that thinner oils probably cannot stand up to track use and may not stand up to BMW's recommended 15k mile oil changes (though I am not sure any oil is good for that change interval).

That said, were I buying bearings today, I would lean towards the bebearings. I also like the fact that, like the VAC Clevite bearings, they are lead/copper based, unlike new stock bearings whether WPC treated or not.

VAC told me that they had their bearings custom made by Clevite with enough extra clearance to except the calico coating and still retain stock values. I'm like you...my stockers made it 60k miles, I assume the new ones will last as long. However, I couldn't get VAC to tell me what kind of bearing was under that coating. Are you sure it's lead? If so, that's great news.

[kaede]

Sooo... in short the BE Bearings is designed with extra clearance + calico coating? That's how it is "better" than the other bearings offered atm right? xD

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by kaede

Sooo... in short the BE Bearings is designed with extra clearance + calico coating? That's how it is "better" than the other bearings offered atm right? xD

It is not a Calico coating. It is a TriArmor coating that is proprietary to Clevite.

[8600RPM]

So how much extra clearance are these new bearings giving over stock newer oems?

[UPSROD]

REALLY hard to believe the German engineers working in the M Performance Division could/would not get rod bearings right. Absolutely nothing new in the automotive world for them to figure out!

[SuckaGDog]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I am not sure the Take Aways reprint is accurate.

I believe I have read the VAC Clevite bearings were designed with more clearance.

There is no proof that WPC coating is a short term stopgap measure, unless people have been removing them and finding premature wear or engine damage. My stock bearings went 60k before I replaced them as preventative maintenance. I expect the WPC bearings to go at least that long. That is more than short term stopgap to me.

Thinner oils certainly help if the theory is clearance is tight. There is no proof this is a stopgap without a solution. The only concern to me is that thinner oils probably cannot stand up to track use and may not stand up to BMW's recommended 15k mile oil changes (though I am not sure any oil is good for that change interval).

That said, were I buying bearings today, I would lean towards the bebearings. I also like the fact that, like the VAC Clevite bearings, they are lead/copper based, unlike new stock bearings whether WPC treated or not.

A member over on M5Board installed WPC treated bearings and after 14k miles removal they were just as bad as his original lead bearings that had 60k miles. This was ran on 0W-40.

Check out the pics

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...ml#post6252201

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by jcolley

Guess what the crank supplier to Dinan does on all their S65 and S85 cranks. They open the rod bearing clearance up. Guess what they do on every S65 and S85 OEM crank they weld repair. They open the rod bearing clearance up.

Guess what a 14k mile set of 702/703 bearings looked like that just came out of my S85. Shite. Zero modifications to the car. Absolutely religious warm-up until > 180F. Fuel from the same pump at the same Shell station on 93 octane for 18 months. They looked as bad as the 65k mile bearings that came out in 2013.

I don't care if the guys who put these together finished high school or have 7 PhDs from MIT. They're providing a product which opens the clearance up the same as a custom stroker crank. I'm sure the guys who build those do so for a reason.

Group think is clearly the way to design a critical component at the heart of an engine. I'd love to hear more about the eccentricity on these new saviour bearings and how that was chosen based on high load rod big end stretching. Guess what the BE bearing folks and no one on their team can answer this because they are basically guessing.

Originally Posted by jcolley

Can we ask how many S65 and S85 engines you've taken apart and rebuilt? I don't know about you, but if I see accelerated wear on 100% of the engines I've personally taken apart, I don't consider it "rare".

Yes indeed, qualifications for this discussion and the design itself should be whether or not one turns the actual wrenches. Do you understand how absurdly wrong this point of view is? How many of the engineers that design all of the critical part of all production vehicles have "turned the wrenches" on the particular parts they design? The answer is not a very high percentage. Engineers design, simulate and test. Builders turn wrenches. Sure that is a huge generalization but it is also largely true.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Well, that was what BMW stated. It would be a bold move for them to lie about it...

Can you provide an actual reference to this statement directly from BMW?

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by SuckaGDog

A member over on M5Board installed WPC treated bearings and after 14k miles removal they were just as bad as his original lead bearings that had 60k miles. This was ran on 0W-40.

Check out the pics

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...ml#post6252201

Scary. Seems really odd to me that WPC treated bearings were as bad at 14k as original bearings at 60k. First, the new bearings reportedly have minimally increased clearance and second the WPC treatment may further minimally increase clearance. I'd like to know what rod bolts were used since there is some evidence ARPs may distort the bearings.

I do not have any intention to check my replacement WPC treated bearings until they have at least the mileage of the originals (60k on originals when replaced, 10k now on WPC), unless I notice some sort of problem (no problem noticed on originals; preventative change) or have some extra time and money and need a project.