Pictures of engine rod bearings on a 75k mile 2008 daily driver with oil report

[WhatsADSM]

Thanks for posting. More data is always a good thing

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

How many of the engines that have had their bearings swapped had good bearings come out? I'd be surprised if that number was higher than 10%. Just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it won't. Jury is out.

The bigger question is, what is causing the abnormal wear and will if actually lead to failure? Unfortunately the only way to know is wait til it blows up.

We've already exchanged ideas on the bearings. We both know where we stand on the issue. The post you are responding to, was not meant for you, but was meant to mirror the troll comment posed at me by a member whose posts I do not respond to. I understand and respect your opinions, no issues there.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

How many engines failed due to bad rod bearings? ~1%? Not a worry for me.

So why do you try to alarm people about main bearings when only 2 failures in the world have been reported? Just stirring up misinformation as usual.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

How many of the engines that have had their bearings swapped had good bearings come out? I'd be surprised if that number was higher than 10%. Just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it won't. Jury is out.

I have seen about 3-4 sets posted here that look pretty good. I don't think we are up to even 5% good bearings yet. If we could get up to 50% then I would agree it would be just as likely your bearings are fine as it is that they are bad. But based on all the bearings replaced thus far, that seems highly unlikely.

[Doc Oc]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

We've already exchanged ideas on the bearings. We both know where we stand on the issue. The post you are responding to, was not meant for you, but was meant to mirror the troll comment posed at me by a member whose posts I do not respond to. I understand and respect your opinions, no issues there.

I gotcha. Here's what I've been thinking about recently. If the bearing wear we are seeing on most cars is truly caused by tolerance stack up and tight clearances, perhaps as the babbitt wears away the clearance opens up enough on some/most engines that they won't have a problem for many miles, if ever. The engines that do experience failure may be the ones that are either just too tight from the factory and keep wearing down to the steel or have some other factor, or combination of factors, like detonation, dirty oil, bad gas, etc. It is very interesting that such a high percentage of bearings pulled have excessive wear, yet only a small percentage have failed. Is it only a matter of time before more engines start popping (as I believe mine would've) or is abnormal wear actually somewhat normal with this engine? Because if it isn't the norm then we have to assume that the wear we are seeing on these bearings will continue through out the life of the engine and we are going to start seeing a ton of failures as more cars rack up miles.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

I gotcha. Here's what I've been thinking about recently. If the bearing wear we are seeing on most cars is truly caused by tolerance stack up and tight clearances, perhaps as the babbitt wears away the clearance opens up enough on some/most engines that they won't have a problem for many miles, if ever. The engines that do experience failure may be the ones that are either just too tight from the factory and keep wearing down to the steel or have some other factor, or combination of factors, like detonation, dirty oil, bad gas, etc. It is very interesting that such a high percentage of bearings pulled have excessive wear, yet only a small percentage have failed. Is it only a matter of time before more engines start popping (as I believe mine would've) or is abnormal wear actually somewhat normal with this engine? Because if it isn't the norm then we have to assume that the wear we are seeing on these bearings will continue through out the life of the engine and we are going to start seeing a ton of failures as more cars rack up miles.

Interesting theory doc, but i don't buy it for a second. I don't think that there is anything wrong with most of these bearings. If you turn your bearings, or OP's bearings on the side for instance, you will see that they're just as thick as brand new ones. "Worn down to the copper layer", or "I can see some copper, dude", is just the typical internet reaction. Just like the bearings with abnormal wear that you saw in the pictures, an engine will keep on functioning until the bearing thickness is compromised severely. The hype is mostly confined to certain areas of the forum. The track section for instance, laughs at this stuff. It's no coincidence that the aftermarket is making coated bearings, and relying heavily on cosmetic appearance as a psychological driving force in drumming up sales. As I've stated over, and over again, they don't want you seeing the pictures of blown engines with their clean bearings, because that would go against the infective thinking that the cosmetic appearance of the bearings signal "imminent failure." OP's bearings, like mine would be fine well over 100K miles.

As for me, I'm continuing to prepare for my next track day on the 24th. I have one in late September, and I will finish the season with an event in late October. Again, I have no plans to touch my bearings till at least well north of 150K miles. I'm much more afraid of a "preventative bearing install" job being mickey moused, since I know for sure that my bearings were installed right at the factory. I'm not counting on some indy guys to get right, what even the factory had difficulties with.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

Here is what bothers me. You and Ashley S. BMW are on every bearing thread saying "looks good to me". However, my bearings were worn past the copper on the parting lines and literally had chunks worn away on the sides on four of them. When you guys say " those look fine" when they actually look terrible, you lose credibility.

The aftermarket guys are showing people clean looking bearings with oil on them claiming to have X or Y "supercharged" miles on them. This is where folks have gotten the absurd idea that no matter matter what miles a vehicle has, the bearings must look clean. As long as the oem bearings made it past 30K miles without being chewed up severely, then the varying surface appearances are just normal wear, mirroring oil change intervals of the owner, or owners.

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

Question for you. Have you ever examined a bearing from this car yourself? Reason I ask that is because if you turn one on its side, you can get a good sense of the layers, at least on mine where the edges are ground down. The babbitt layers are very thin as compared to the steel backer which I would say makes up at least 85% of the bearing's thickness. How thin do you think they can get before failure?

Have I ever examined a bearing from the S65? NO. Did you take pics of yours from the side, and compare it to the aftermarket guys bearings from the side, after 30K supercharged miles? Did you measure the thickness of your bearings, and compare them to brand new bearings? Did you, or any of the guys on here pulling bearings, or the aftermarket guys take pictures of the underside of the bearings? I'm too old to fall for the gimmic of: "hey look at these surface pictures!". Now go spend money to change yours so that they are shiny like this. I don't live in fear and it's absurd to think that my naturally aspirated car will fail suddenly without any type of warning whatsoever. It's also laughable that some trolls think that nothing is wrong with the main bearings. When those fail, it seems the engines seize. So a quick search on the forum reveals much more than 2 cases where that happened. Reading those threads, the owners foolishly changed their oil: "whenever the car told me to, at the dealership". Meaning, every 15K miles. So my final question for you is, rod bearings aside, what makes you think your main bearings are magically ok, and that now you are immune from failure because you put in coated rod bearings?

[Doc Oc]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

The aftermarket guys are showing people clean looking bearings with oil on them claiming to have X or Y "supercharged" miles on them. This is where folks have gotten the absurd idea that no matter matter what miles a vehicle has, the bearings must look clean. As long as the oem bearings made it past 30K miles without being chewed up severely, then the varying surface appearances are just normal wear, mirroring oil change intervals of the owner, or owners.

Have I ever examined a bearing from the S65? NO. Did you take pics of yours from the side, and compare it to the aftermarket guys bearings from the side, after 30K supercharged miles? Did you measure the thickness of your bearings, and compare them to brand new bearings? Did you, or any of the guys on here pulling bearings, or the aftermarket guys take pictures of the underside of the bearings? I'm too old to fall for the gimmic of: "hey look at these surface pictures!". Now go spend money to change yours so that they are shiny like this. I don't live in fear and it's absurd to think that my naturally aspirated car will fail suddenly without any type of warning whatsoever. It's also laughable that some trolls think that nothing is wrong with the main bearings. When those fail, it seems the engines seize. So a quick search on the forum reveals much more than 2 cases where that happened. Reading those threads, the owners foolishly changed their oil: "whenever the car told me to, at the dealership". Meaning, every 15K miles. So my final question for you is, rod bearings aside, what makes you think your main bearings are magically ok, and that now you are immune from failure because you put in coated rod bearings?

Wow you are fast. That was up 15 seconds before I deleted it to go a different direction. Pointless now though. Regarding main bearings, there is much more involved with a main bearing swap. Of course it'd be nice to do but it's risky to do with the crank in. I discussed it with my engine guy and decided the cost and risk made it prohibitive. As he said, sometimes the rod bearings and main bearings mirror each other, sometimes not, depends what the problem is. Rod bearings can wear without the main bearings having issues as they are subject to different loads. But yes, of course I've compared bearings, looked at the backs, measured, etc. And I could see with the naked eye that my uppers were thinner than the lowers in the middle. I've got a gauge on order to get real numbers and will post results at some point. Below is a picture of one of my uppers and one of the lowers. It gives you a pretty clear idea of how thin the babbitt really is. The rest is steel. There's very little room for error here. And I too think it's absurd to think a stock naturally aspirated engine will just die. Doesn't change the fact that it has happened. I'm not saying all these worn bearings are going to lead to failure, I don't believe that and the jury is out as to what really constitutes a failing bearing, but I do believe that bearings with atypical wear patterns (like mine) where copper is showing on the edges, in pits, and at parting lines will lead to failure. However, when I posted them here, you and ASBMW jumped on it and said they are fine. More hysteria. To me that takes away your credibility. Having never held one or done tests on one also weakens your position a bit. Really all you are going by (no disrespect intended, just my point of view) is the fact that your car and other high milers are still running. And your counterpoint that all of the mechanics that myself and others have worked with and talked to are just trying to make money on the ignorant doesn't hold water to me. I've talked to too many mechanics with no dog in the fight to believe that.

In regards to normal wear and not being shiny, let's look below. If a crank contacts a bearing, it's going to be in the middle of the lower bearing, where the cranks sits when at rest. You've seen that demonstrated in the diagram on the page you linked. So tell me why are the upper bearings showing the most wear in all of the sets that have been pulled. How is that normal? What worries me even more is that the parting lines are worn all the way to and past the copper. That is not, in any way shape or form normal. There should never be contact at that part of the bearing. That means that either my rods stretched from extended high rpm use or the bolts were over-torqued from the factory. How many other cars out there have this issue? If I'd listened to the naysayers these would still be in my engine and although I might've made it to 100k miles, sooner or later these would've failed IMO.

[cenix]

So the oil report shows a clean report and the bearings looking like that leads me to believe that oil reports show nothing unless the bearing has already sheared extensively on that sample. By then your answer is already in the books. I think swapping them out for you OP was good maintenance for longevity.

Am I confused or something, because I was always thinking our cars wear the lowers quicker than the uppers or is it just random (from what we see on the posts here)?

[kkhurr]

Originally Posted by cenix

So the oil report shows a clean report and the bearings looking like that leads me to believe that oil reports show nothing unless the bearing has already sheared extensively on that sample. By then your answer is already in the books. I think swapping them out for you OP was good maintenance for longevity.

Am I confused or something, because I was always thinking our cars wear the lowers quicker than the uppers or is it just random (from what we see on the posts here)?

This is exactly what worried me too was the oil report looking good and the bearings looking pretty worn. Makes me believe that the bearings have been worn for a while and that had i done an oil report around that time it would have shown it.

Either way the main reason i changed the bearings was because the car was being supercharged and it was going to cost me less on labor since AA would already have some of the car apart.

Whether they were ready to fail or not I just shrugged my shoulders and had it done since the engine was already going to be apart and for peace of mind.

If it still blows after this then lesson learned. Till then I love this car and dont want the new M3/M4 so i went ahead and supercharged it and did the bearings.

But thank you for all the comments and discussion. Main reason to post these was to add to the threads already out there on rod bearings. More information on the issue isnt a bad thing.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

I've got a gauge on order to get real numbers and will post results at some point.

It's always good to work with numbers, at least that's what I learned in kindergarten. Remember to compare your measurements to brand new bearings, please. Uppers to uppers, and lowers to lowers.

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

Below is a picture of one of my uppers and one of the lowers. It gives you a pretty clear idea of how thin the babbitt really is. The rest is steel. There's very little room for error here.

Honestly I've looked at these two bearings, and besides looking decent cosmetically, I can't tell the difference thickness wise. At the bottom, I suppose there would be a difference but it would be of .00000something. Can't tell from the pictures, and my human eye. Honestly.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by cenix

So the oil report shows a clean report and the bearings looking like that leads me to believe that oil reports show nothing unless the bearing has already sheared extensively on that sample. By then your answer is already in the books. I think swapping them out for you OP was good maintenance for longevity.

Dynamite observation, and I was just about to post about this. If you read the first lines of what blackstone wrote, OP should have absolutely no worries. But according to AA, who's he pays a labor rate, and the aftermarket company which he paid for his bearings, he averted imminent, catastrophic failure. So if we are to understand certain folks on these forums whom i have affectionately named: camp imminent failure, Blackstone Labs, with all their expertise, along with all those people paying $ for oil analysis are wasting their time?

[cenix]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

Dynamite observation, and I was just about to post about this. If you read the first lines of what blackstone wrote, OP should have absolutely no worries. But according to AA, who's he pays a labor rate, and the aftermarket company which he paid for his bearings from, he averted imminent, catastrophic failure. So if we are to understand folks on these forums whom i have affectionately named: camp imminent failure, Blackstone Labs, with all their expertise, along with all those people paying $ for oil analysis are wasting their time?

I wouldn't generalize it as a waste of time, because a sample is a sample. It's clear that the bearing wear on OP's car is a slow, steady, consistent wear that has become this over 72k miles. It's not about 5 miles further and catastrophic failure. But the wear down and into the copper would've worried me, too, and I would've been happy to change them out as well. I don't associate myself with any "camps" of thought. Some bearings on the boards look like shit and some don't. Life is random, too.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by kkhurr

If it still blows after this then lesson learned. Till then I love this car and dont want the new M3/M4 so i went ahead and supercharged it and did the bearings.

I think I've given advise on this in your other thread. IMHO, if you stick to 4-5lbs of boost, then you might be ok. However, with high boost, the motor will generate more heat and there will be no doubt isolated hot spots. I've considered supercharging, and would definitely put in coated rod bearings if I did so, but what worries me is that the heat would cause my rods to stretch, making the coated bearings virtually slide in and out of the rods, just like in the engine tear down video I posted for you. The heat also causes accelerated wear on the main bearings, as both engine's main bearings in the video, were pretty worn. So leaving main bearings unchanged is also a worry for me. Finally, I've seen a motor with high boost on here fail from hairline cracks on the block. Coolant started leaking from those cracks, and the motor was done. Because of these worries I'm staying N/A. Consider my advise on boost levels, and honestly I wish you good luck, long term. Enjoy your awesome car!

Originally Posted by kkhurr

But thank you for all the comments and discussion. Main reason to post these was to add to the threads already out there on rod bearings. More information on the issue isnt a bad thing.

No, thank you! I just wish all these bearing threads were consolidated, just so we all don't have to keep looking at so many different threads.

[Doc Oc]

Originally Posted by cenix

So the oil report shows a clean report and the bearings looking like that leads me to believe that oil reports show nothing unless the bearing has already sheared extensively on that sample. By then your answer is already in the books. I think swapping them out for you OP was good maintenance for longevity.

Am I confused or something, because I was always thinking our cars wear the lowers quicker than the uppers or is it just random (from what we see on the posts here)?

You'd think the lowers would be the ones to wear faster. Looking at the link Killerfish posted it shows that the only place the crank should ever contact the bearing is in the lower shell at rest. But 95% of the bearings I've seen show much more wear on the upper shell, which to me, is abnormal.

[Doc Oc]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

It's always good to work with numbers, at least that's what I learned in kindergarten. Remember to compare your measurements to brand new bearings, please. Uppers to uppers, and lowers to lowers.



Honestly I've looked at these two bearings, and besides looking decent cosmetically, I can't tell the difference thickness wise. At the bottom, I suppose there would be a difference but it would be of .00000something. Can't tell from the pictures, and my human eye. Honestly.

Do you know if a stock 08 bearing can still be purchased? Comparing mine vs the non lead seems pointless. But I'd really like to get ahold of a 088/89 for comparison.

That angle doesn't show you bearing thickness variance much, but it shows how thin the lead layer really is. I can take a good side by side for you but fear I'm hijacking the op's thread. I'll post it up in my bearing thread instead.

I don't mean this to be rude, but do you need glasses? Mine do not look decent cosmetically. Parting lines should see the least wear, not the most. And the copper pits on the side are bad news too. Maybe you are only looking at the middle? I didn't post pics of the ones with the worst wear in the middle because I was focusing on the parting line issue. I have two that are into the copper in the middle, but the parting lines are of the most concern to me as that is the opposite of normal.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

I've considered supercharging, and would definitely put in coated rod bearings if I did so, but what worries me is that the heat would cause my rods to stretch, making the coated bearings virtually slide in and out of the rods

This is ridiculous. Supercharging adds heat and causes your rods to stretch, so coated bearings will slide in and out of the rods. Seriously? Where do you get this stuff from?

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

This is ridiculous. Supercharging adds heat and causes your rods to stretch, so coated bearings will slide in and out of the rods. Seriously? Where do you get this stuff from?

So forced induction does not add heat to an engine? You saw the Gintani tear down video, right? Do you own a supercharged vehicle? NO. Do you own a forced induction BMW? NO. I at least own a forced induction BMW, and know what I'm talking about. I've ignored you in the past, and I will keep doing it.

[pbonsalb]

No, I do not think your rods will stretch if you supercharge your car or that coated bearings will slide in and out of the rods. The rods won't stretch and the coated bearings won't move.

But don't take my word for it. Ask one of the shops that regularly supercharges these cars and regularly installs treated bearings. If you ask Gintani, get us an update on their twin turbo kit ....

[Killerfish2012]

We have video evidence of two engine's torn down showing this. The vehicle was not supposed to be running any boost, let alone the 6-8lbs Khurr is intending to run. I'm trying to give advise based on facts that we have. If you don't have fact, and just opinions, then please state that.

You also don't have any type of tracking experience with your car, let along forced induction cars, like I have. You just have a daily driver, which you changed your bearings, and switched to 0W40. That's not direct experience with forced induction.

[pbonsalb]

You have an old video from Gintani, which is not very well respected, tearing down a customer motor it blew up and then blaming the motor rather then their tuning. This is not the first motor Gintani has blown up through bad tuning and too much boost and that customer moved on to ESS afterwards. There are many, many, many motors damaged due to rod bearings. You might as well show us one struck by lightening as the Gintani motor. Whatever it is, it is an exception to what everyone is seeing, not an explanation for what everyone is seeing.

What does tracking have to do with rod bearings? Most of the rod bearing failure motors were not in track cars. And your car was a gently driven highway car until you bought it at 95k miles. Those are the easiest miles on a car. Its great you have taken it to the track, but that does not make you the least bit qualified to comment on rod bearings.

What does forced induction have to do with rod bearings? Most of the rod bearing failure motors were not in forced induction cars. And your car is not forced induction. Whatever experience you may have with other forced induction cars is immaterial, just like mine is (although I have owned a modded turbo or centrifugal car or both continuously for the past 20+ years).

I do agree that running too much boost can damage a motor -- which is why ESS and others size their pulleys to limit the maximum boost. If I was buying a centrifugal for track use, I would discuss my use with the shop and follow its recommendations. Centrifugal supercharged E9x M3 are regularly tracked across the country without issue.

Again, I invite you to speak to a reputable shop like ESS or EAS about your theory that forced induction causes rods to stretch and the bearings to slide in and out. Even the knowledgeable naysayers here seizing upon every possible alternative explanation for motor failure don't consider this.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

You have an old video from Gintani, which is not very well respected, tearing down a customer motor it blew up and then blaming the motor rather then their tuning. This is not the first motor Gintani has blown up through bad tuning and too much boost and that customer moved on to ESS afterwards. There are many, many, many motors damaged due to rod bearings. You might as well show us one struck by lightening as the Gintani motor. Whatever it is, it is an exception to what everyone is seeing, not an explanation for what everyone is seeing..

Bad tuning? There was no detonation in that motor, and there were two motors. The second belonged to paul walker, and it shows the exact same issues. bad rod bearings, mad main bearings, and stretched rods. Two motors, is more than enough proof. ESS has seen a motor let go because of cracks in the block due to the effects of long term supercharging.

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

What does tracking have to do with rod bearings? Most of the rod bearing failure motors were not in track cars. And your car was a gently driven highway car until you bought it at 95k miles. Those are the easiest miles on a car. Its great you have taken it to the track, but that does not make you the least bit qualified to comment on rod bearings.

and what makes you qualified? buying a used CPO '08 car and changing out the rod bearings, and switching to 0W40, out of internet paranoia, on a daily driven car? Is that why you should continue stalking me online, with your magazines?

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

What does forced induction have to do with rod bearings? Most of the rod bearing failure motors were not in forced induction cars. And your car is not forced induction. Whatever experience you may have with other forced induction cars is immaterial, just like mine is (although I have owned a modded turbo or centrifugal car or both continuously for the past 20+ years)..

You don't thing there is a relationship between supercharging an S65, and rod bearing issues? ok.

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I do agree that running too much boost can damage a motor -- which is why ESS and others size their pulleys to limit the maximum boost. If I was buying a centrifugal for track use, I would discuss my use with the shop and follow its recommendations. Centrifugal supercharged E9x M3 are regularly tracked across the country without issue..

That ends the argument so stop stalking my posts. you don't specify what type of damage can occur, but you attack my fact driven points.

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

[Again, I invite you to speak to a reputable shop like ESS or EAS about your theory that forced induction causes rods to stretch and the bearings to slide in and out. Even the knowledgeable naysayers here seizing upon every possible alternative explanation for motor failure don't consider this.

ESS, has dynos showing +16whp on customer cars with X-pipes after their tune. You want us to believe this is false because of what you read in your magazines. Now you want me to start talking to ESS about boosted cars not stretching rods?