Rod Bearings Pics From High Mileage 2011.75

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Ashley Schaeffer BMW

The guys who make the aftermarket bearings must love this forum.

Changing bearings at 34k? I have 117k and it's not even on my radar.

Ditto! Just rolling in dough, charging 200% premiums for spray painted OEM bearings. Good to hear from another confident high miler I'm going strong with 117K miles, tracking it hard in the advanced group. Life is short. Drive your cars, get a girl friend and get off the interwebs guys.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Given that M engines are designed for 150k miles (per Steve Dinan) stock or will last 120k-130k modified, I view the condition of these stock bearings as a good outcome.

A guy providing the least horsepower gains, for the Most money has zero credibility in my book. Go mention Dinan over on the E90post, and you'll get laughed at.

[FogCityM3]

The LOL is on those who don't have the info. The same guy who found a design mistake in the E60 M5 intake (that robbed hp), built numerous race-winning engines for BMW race teams, does engine work for Ferrari race cars, a tuner has one of the few stand-alone engine dynos (and a simulated wind-tunnel with true heat exchange), the first boring machine that could bore the special aluminum-silicon alloy of the S65 outside of germany and regularly programs (with their own software engineers) standalone race and street ECUs and offers stroker and custom club race engines that actually win races. Dinan regularly has contact with BMW, gathers and shares information with the Motorsport division and has one of the longest histories in building BMW engines and data gathering on numerous street and race BMWs in the world. Sorry but most really have zero clue as to what goes on there and what they've accomplished.

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

A guy providing the least horsepower gains, for the Most money has zero credibility in my book. Go mention Dinan over on the E90post, and you'll get laughed at.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

Ditto! Just rolling in dough, charging 200% premiums for spray painted OEM bearings. Good to hear from another confident high miler I'm going strong with 117K miles, tracking it hard in the advanced group. Life is short. Drive your cars, get a girl friend and get off the interwebs guys.

As is common with your posts, there is misinformation that needs to be corrected.

No 200% markups that I am aware of. Most people have used either stock BMW bearings or stock BMW bearings with WPC treatment. WPC charges about $70 for the treatment, and BMW S65 bearing business is likely a very minimal part of their business.

The VAC Clevite bearings with Calico coating are used by a minority, but are actually probably the better choice since they improve clearance and they contain lead and they have a coating. These bearings cost $540, which is about a 50% added cost over stock.

I do agree there is money to be made in the bearing swap business, but the people making the most money on bearings are the shops installing them. Buying the bearings is the cheap part. Installing them, if you have done it a few times like some of these shops and using ARP bolts, should take about 8 hours. But the shops charge as much as $1600 in labor.

[tlrid3r]

Those look in great condition. Take a look at these of a 09 e92. These are not mine but from w local shop owner. Mine were replaced as well.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

The LOL is on those who don't have the info. The same guy who found a design mistake in the E60 M5 intake (that robbed hp), built numerous race-winning engines for BMW race teams, does engine work for Ferrari race cars, a tuner has one of the few stand-alone engine dynos (and a simulated wind-tunnel with true heat exchange), the first boring machine that could bore the special aluminum-silicon alloy of the S65 outside of germany and regularly programs (with their own software engineers) standalone race and street ECUs and offers stroker and custom club race engines that actually win races. Dinan regularly has contact with BMW, gathers and shares information with the Motorsport division and has one of the longest histories in building BMW engines and data gathering on numerous street and race BMWs in the world. Sorry but most really have zero clue as to what goes on there and what they've accomplished.

We asked steve, and or his representatives promoting his "rebuilt" stroker motors on this forum whether they were aware of any bearing issues in the S65, and if they changed the rod bearings, bolts or any other components during their builds. No responses were given. Dinan dodged it. One thing is for certain though, they are NOT using coated oem rod bearings.

[Eminenceo3]

those look great! now you may drive in peace

[rixride]

+1

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

We asked steve, and or his representatives promoting his "rebuilt" stroker motors on this forum whether they were aware of any bearing issues in the S65, and if they changed the rod bearings, bolts or any other components during their builds. No responses were given. Dinan dodged it. One thing is for certain though, they are NOT using coated oem rod bearings.

Dinan builds motors. On a built motor, you can get whatever clearance you want.

You say "certain." When did Dinan tell you what bearings it uses? I think you make stuff up or just have no clue what you talk about. You already said Dinan has no commented. So how can you be certain?

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by tlrid3r

Those look in great condition. Take a look at these of a 09 e92. These are not mine but from w local shop owner. Mine were replaced as well.

Hell you could just put those back in, their pristine..

[GRUESOM3]

I work near bmw of Manhattan and a lot of the techs eat at same fast food place that I eat and a lot of times I've asked them about any issue they see with the e9x m3's and on 3 separate instances never blown motors or rod bearings. When I mention rod bearings they look at me like I'm a ghost

[FogCityM3]

Given the relationship with BMW, not entirely surprised they wold be cagey about the info. I asked Dinan through the local Dinan dealer rep about 10w-60, to which Steve Dinan replied via email you should not use any oil other than 10w-60 without stating any reason. I also brought up the rod bearing issues but the question was dodged.

They do change the bearings in their stroker motor (to Dinan spec, something I may actually do in the future) the Dinan dealership at this location said they had done 4 bearing changes at that location's history where wear was an issue: 2 S85 sets and 2 S65s. 2 of them had engine ticking issues (one s85 seized), another s65 owner did it preventatively and there was wear (they showed me an S85 set and S65 set both looked bad).

The head dealership foreman (not Steve Dinan) said the problem was seen with the older bearings in his experience.

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

We asked steve, and or his representatives promoting his "rebuilt" stroker motors on this forum whether they were aware of any bearing issues in the S65, and if they changed the rod bearings, bolts or any other components during their builds. No responses were given. Dinan dodged it. One thing is for certain though, they are NOT using coated oem rod bearings.

[Doc Oc]

I just did mine as well. They looked much worse than yours. Yours are the best I've ever seen here. It's nice to know you won't be chewing up the new bearings anytime soon. I also had split motor mounts coincidentally.

[Doc Oc]

You gotta love the internet. There are always two groups on every forum at odds with each other over something or another. I've been participating on car forums for nearly 20 years and whether it's the dobb's corvette bbs in 1996 or right here right now, it's as predictable as the sunset. Here we have the people who think it's all hysteria and people who believe there is an issue because we've seen a surprisingly high number of worn bearings and blown motors. The problem is that the people who believe it's all b.s don't have the necessary knowledge to make that claim, yet they subvert the people who are doing the testing and trying to gain the knowledge because they think those people have nefarious motives. I'm not positive who's right, but I know it all works to the detriment of the m3 community at large. I think it's as irresponsible to tell people it's nonsense as it is to tell people that every click and tick the engine makes is the bearings getting ready to go. The fact is, there is a problem and the jury is still out on how bad it is or what causes it. Could be clearance and tolerance stack up, could be long oci's, could be heavy oil. We don't have all the answers yet. So you can play the odds and hope for the best or be proactive and swap them out, it's up to each owner. But to the people who think this is all b.s I say keep it to yourself. No one who spends $2500 to do this and is then kind enough to share with the community deserves to be ridiculed. The people who are doing the talking aren't spending their money to further the collective knowledge of the forum. Keep that in mind. Nay-saying is easy. Anecdotal evidence like "we have many high milers on the road" isn't really evidence at all and doesn't change anything. We have many cars that've blown up before 20k miles too. Doesn't mean they all will. No one is trying to say this issue effects all cars, but it seems like a couple of you are trying to say that because your high mileage car isn't effected, no one else's could be.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

Yet another winner of your PHANTOM lottery!

Just found another PHANTOM for you with a in car cam and on track when it happens ..actually really something for you => # 1067 http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...2#post18315872

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Just found another PHANTOM for you with a in car cam and on track when it happens ..actually really something for you => # 1067 http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...2#post18315872

Was it rod bearing failure? You couldn't find out the exact cause of failure, so why exactly would you reference this? I've seen misc car engines go on track too. It's a rare occurrence and posting a video about it in a rational discussion, is "Alarmist". Try that for a new English word.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

I just did mine as well. They looked much worse than yours. Yours are the best I've ever seen here. It's nice to know you won't be chewing up the new bearings anytime soon. I also had split motor mounts coincidentally.

We've seen one at approximately 100K miles on here that looked better than these. People just simply dismissed it though. Just like this one, it must be some kind of weird anomaly.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

Was it rod bearing failure? You couldn't find out the exact cause of failure, so why exactly would you reference this? I've seen misc car engines go on track too. It's a rare occurrence and posting a video about it in a rational discussion, is "Alarmist". Try that for a new English word.

No way it was bearing failure because our cars never do , the cause of the rattle noise of that S65 was only the noise of the aftermarket exhaust that's why they jumped out of the car and said.. What the hell was that ?... fuck !
So a new English word is born for both of us..."The Alarmist rattle noise" !
But honestly for me personal a rattle noise under the hood of a S65 sounds more as a Alarm noise ..

[Doc Oc]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

We've seen one at approximately 100K miles on here that looked better than these. People just simply dismissed it though. Just like this one, it must be some kind of weird anomaly.

Dude, you're not getting it! I'm sure there are thousands upon thousands of engines that will never have a problem. Like I said, even if we use a very high rate (and by rate I mean abnormal wear, not failed engines) like 10%, 9 out of every 10 cars would be unaffected. For every worn set of bearings pulled, we should see 9 not worn. I know you think that 10% number is high, but the truth is you hope that number is high. All I know is far more than 10% of the bearings pulled out of cars on this particular forum show abnormal wear. Of course there are extenuating circumstances in some, but the evidence so far is not on your side. Every euro shop I've talked to is familiar with the problem, the dealer in my area is familiar, and the dealer in Charlotte where my mechanic got the oil pan gaskets said he's done multiple s85's and s65's. He had an m5 in there the day we picked up the parts that was being rebuilt after the bearings went. No disrespect but saying "mine hasn't blown up" is not a valid argument against a widespread problem. I've had a 2002 and 2004 e46 m3. Neither blew up. Yet they still had a bearing recall.

[WhatsADSM]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

You gotta love the internet. There are always two groups on every forum at odds with each other over something or another. I've been participating on car forums for nearly 20 years and whether it's the dobb's corvette bbs in 1996 or right here right now, it's as predictable as the sunset. Here we have the people who think it's all hysteria and people who believe there is an issue because we've seen a surprisingly high number of worn bearings and blown motors. The problem is that the people who believe it's all b.s don't have the necessary knowledge to make that claim, yet they subvert the people who are doing the testing and trying to gain the knowledge because they think those people have nefarious motives. I'm not positive who's right, but I know it all works to the detriment of the m3 community at large. I think it's as irresponsible to tell people it's nonsense as it is to tell people that every click and tick the engine makes is the bearings getting ready to go. The fact is, there is a problem and the jury is still out on how bad it is or what causes it. Could be clearance and tolerance stack up, could be long oci's, could be heavy oil. We don't have all the answers yet. So you can play the odds and hope for the best or be proactive and swap them out, it's up to each owner. But to the people who think this is all b.s I say keep it to yourself. No one who spends $2500 to do this and is then kind enough to share with the community deserves to be ridiculed. The people who are doing the talking aren't spending their money to further the collective knowledge of the forum. Keep that in mind. Nay-saying is easy. Anecdotal evidence like "we have many high milers on the road" isn't really evidence at all and doesn't change anything. We have many cars that've blown up before 20k miles too. Doesn't mean they all will. No one is trying to say this issue effects all cars, but it seems like a couple of you are trying to say that because your high mileage car isn't effected, no one else's could be.

This!

[BMRLVR]

I was just speaking to one of my engine guy peers and he pointed out something that made a lot of sense after I thought about it. So please read some food for thought I have written below.

The bearings in this thread are the new 702/703 bearings that were introduced sometime in 2010 production year cars. Since these bearings are Aluminium/tin bearings they are going to show wear much differently than the older 088/089 lead/copper/steel bearings. Basically since there is no soft lead (Babbitt) overlay on these 702/703 bearings they will not look as bad as the 088/089 bearings even if they are experiencing the same type of operating condition.

So when you see these newer lead free bearings that "look" better after being in an engine for an equal mileage as the old lead/copper/steel bearings, you are only seeing the additional surface hardness of the bearing shell better able to take contact from the crank journal in boundary lubrication conditions caused by breakdown in the hydrodynamic lubrication in the bearing. A better looking bearing shell doesn't mean a better functioning bearing, the lubrication issue, which I believe is insufficient clearance, still needs to be addressed to actually correct the bearing issue.

One big issue I can see with these newer bearings is increased chance of crank journal damage due to the harder surface of the shell.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by tlrid3r

Those look in great condition. Take a look at these of a 09 e92. These are not mine but from w local shop owner. Mine were replaced as well.

They look like shit !