Cumulative data on S65 engine failures.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by 08 E92 Jerez Black

Is there anyone working this that is gathering specs from rod bearings pulled out of engines? I have the ones I pulled out of my 08 e92 M3 six speed with 87k Miles, and even though I would want them back (in the event I have problems with the Main bearing in the near future) I would be fine with shipping them to someone that is accepted as an expert that is already gathering the info and that BMW might take seriously. this is a street car that didn't see track time and is pretty much stock (no supercharger) the pic is showing the number one (left) and number 8 (right) upper bearings (piston side) all eight looked the same.

Attachment 1194833

This data has been collected in the Bearing Wiki thread. I used to have people ship me their bearings and I would measure them. But I quite doing that because it became too much of the same old thing and nothing new (no new or interesting measurements) was coming out of it. So feel free to post the pictures in the bearing wiki thread, but I'm no longer having people ship them to me for measurements.
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=892838

Originally Posted by 08 E92 Jerez Black

I replaced them with treated bearings and stock rod bolts (not ARP) from Bimmerworld. If I was planning on doing a supercharge I would have pulled to line bore the rods before using ARP since I have always been taught that you have to since ARP grabs so much better it will actually throw rods and mains out of round.

It turns out, the factory rod bolts actually have more clamping force than the ARP-2000 or APR-625 rod bolts. The ARP's are better bolts, but still clamp less than factory. As a result, the ARP's do deform the rod big end bore as you expect, but not because it's too much clamping force, but in this case because it's too little. I will start a new thread soon with all of the measurements and graphs for rod bolts.

[e92zero]

maybe I missed it but what about the engines with bearing replaced where the bearings looked horrible? After this whole bearings issue (or not) was brought to light, it seems quite a few people have done the bearing replacement before the engine failed. From some of those pictures, it's pretty safe to assume that some of those engines will most definitely failed if the bearings were not replaced. Are we counting those also? Is the data representative to exclude them or should they be included in the chart as a separate column as well? Thoughts?

[vsix]

Originally Posted by 08 E92 Jerez Black

Is there anyone working this that is gathering specs from rod bearings pulled out of engines? I have the ones I pulled out of my 08 e92 M3 six speed with 87k Miles, and even though I would want them back (in the event I have problems with the Main bearing in the near future) I would be fine with shipping them to someone that is accepted as an expert that is already gathering the info and that BMW might take seriously. this is a street car that didn't see track time and is pretty much stock (no supercharger) the pic is showing the number one (left) and number 8 (right) upper bearings (piston side) all eight looked the same.

Attachment 1194833

Just a question:
You bought the car brand new or used?
If used to say it upfront...you can't asure of any fact regarding driver operation be it supercharging, track beating and general abusing.
With that said...now that you watch and baby the car doesn't automatically mean the people before you did. Just saying, so that noone get's the wrong impression about the S65.

[08 E92 Jerez Black]

I bought the car used from my best friend, who has an e46 race car that he races at thunder hill in the 25 hours of thunder hill, he drove this car for pleasure, the only change he made to the car was new rims. He knew the owner before that one. So I do know the life of this particular engine. I know it never set foot on a track, was never supercharged. I know the drain pan was immaculate when I pulled it, it had almost no carbon or any other crap in it. In fact I barely had to degrease it and it
Looked new after I was done on the inside. My intent is to try and help others with issues, and in my engine builders opinion these rods should not look like this at 80k.

[vsix]

Originally Posted by 08 E92 Jerez Black

I bought the car used from my best friend, who has an e46 race car that he races at thunder hill in the 25 hours of thunder hill, he drove this car for pleasure, the only change he made to the car was new rims. He knew the owner before that one. So I do know the life of this particular engine. I know it never set foot on a track, was never supercharged. I know the drain pan was immaculate when I pulled it, it had almost no carbon or any other crap in it. In fact I barely had to degrease it and it
Looked new after I was done on the inside. My intent is to try and help others with issues, and in my engine builders opinion these rods should not look like this at 80k.

I have also a friend who's a big track guy ( Hockenheimring ) and he could't drive any car without sometime's pushing it to it's limit's! Be it a focus RS or a 2011 Mustang V6 he drove all of these car's pretty hard. I remember riding with him in his 2011 Mustang daily he barely shifted out of third gear as he ( that's what he stated ) liked the powerband of the 306 HP motor and just couldn't drive any different..
So be careful when you state that you bought a ( virgin ) car from your track buddy that never had been abused before. To sum it up: I don't buy that.

[squartus]

Plenty of bearings been pulled from cars that are stock and babied, with 40k or less that have terrible bearing wear and would of blown engines in a few years if not much sooner.
Myself included "before supercharged" Alot of people have been nipping this in the bud and saving engines with pictures to prove it.

[08 E92 Jerez Black]

So what are you implying here, you seam dead-set on the idea that the these Motors could not have a have a potential weak point and that the only way this could happen is that someone beat on the cars? Why then did BMW loosen the clearance on later year motors? Why are there examples all over the blogs of motors with less than 20k miles with
Spun bearings? My intent is to help, I did the
Bearing service myself because after reading for a week that there or more than the expected number of owners with rods sticking out of the sides of blocks, spun bearings and the dreaded "knocking sound" coming from my engine posts that this was a project that
Might not
Be 100 percent necessary but seamed like cheap insurance if they where valid. And sure enough I pulled 8 great examples that
Looks identical to most the pics I saw of the
People that dodged bullets themselves. I don't have the cash laying around to
Build a motor so I'm a happy guy. One other thing, how many other cars do you know of that have multiple companies selling hardened and coated bearings for stock replacement?

[vsix]

Originally Posted by 08 E92 Jerez Black

So what are you implying here, you seam dead-set on the idea that the these Motors could not have a have a potential weak point and that the only way this could happen is that someone beat on the cars? Why then did BMW loosen the clearance on later year motors? Why are there example all over the blogs of motors with less than 20k miles with
Spun bearings? My intent is to help, I did the
Bearing service myself because after reading for a week that there or more than the expected number of owners with rods sticking out of the sides of blocks, spun bearings and the dreaded "knocking sound" coming from my engine posts that this was a project that
Might not
Be 100 percent nessary but seamed like cheap insurance if they where valid. And sure enough I pulled 8 great examples that
Looks identical to most the pics I saw of the
People that dodged bullets themselves. I don't have the cash laying around to
Build a motor so I'm a happy guy. One other thing, how many other cars do you know of that have multiple companies selling hardened and coated bearings for stock replacement?

I do understood your brotherly intension to share your experience on here, I'm just not saying I'm dead-set just trying that OP's original attempt doesn't fail!
That's all. Referring about my own experience and clarifying.
Why are you barking at me now? Isn't there a chance, that what I said could be legit?

To answer your question:
No.

I once spoke to an german BMW mechanic and he looked at me pretty shocked, saying he NEVER experienced rod bearing failure as these motor's are pretty much bullet proof. Sure a main thing for ALL car's is proper maintenance.
Iam still convinced that it has something to do with operation of the vehicle, combined with temperature's AND oil...or gas ...not sure...

[08 E92 Jerez Black]

Have fun with that, I truly hope you never have an issue with yours. But I'm pretty sure that there are many examples of people that thought like you and got a sad wake up call and now they have a shiny BMW in their driveway under a car cover with a blown motor they Can't afford to fix.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by vsix

I once spoke to an german BMW mechanic and he looked at me pretty shocked, saying he NEVER experienced rod bearing failure as these motor's are pretty much bullet proof. Sure a main thing for ALL car's is proper maintenance.
Iam still convinced that it has something to do with operation of the vehicle, combined with temperature's AND oil...or gas ...not sure...

I'm not sure I understand why you're using the credentials of a BMW mechanic, then saying "it" has something to do with... In the context of this discussion, what is "it" if it's not bearing failure, and doesn't that mean the BMW dude was pretty wrong?

[vsix]

Originally Posted by 08 E92 Jerez Black

Have fun with that, I truly hope you never have an issue with yours. But I'm pretty sure that there are many examples of people that thought like you and got a sad wake up call and now they have a shiny BMW in their driveway under a car over with a blown motor they Can't afford to fix.

You know if it happen's then I will take care of it, until that day all bearing-fail-replacement-vendor-discussion's are yada, yada talk for me.
I do feel very sad to hear that enthusiast's do experience these failure's and never said the failure's aren't legit just saying that there's alway's the other side of a coin point of view.
To be honest with you and everyone on here, isn't this rod-bearing -fail-mania not a cool money printing machine?
Think about it...maybe there's nothing you guy's can do about it...it's maybe operation based depending on the unique street/ gas/ oil regulation's of your country!
But that's just asuming to be sure I have to wait and see how long vendor replacement bearing's actually gonna last...

[vsix]

Originally Posted by regular guy

I'm not sure I understand why you're using the credentials of a BMW mechanic, then saying "it" has something to do with... In the context of this discussion, what is "it" if it's not bearing failure, and doesn't that mean the BMW dude was pretty wrong?

Dude, don't play with me Iam not in the mood for this right now

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by vsix

To be honest with you and everyone on here, isn't this rod-bearing -fail-mania not a cool money printing machine?
Think about it...maybe there's nothing you guy's can do about it...it's maybe operation based!

Money printing machine for who? I'm probably the ground-zero guy in this whole issue and I'm not a business nor gaining anything out of it. But I will add my own observations to follow up yours. Like you, many people have made the accusation that this was all intended to make heaps of profits by inventing an issue then profiting from it. Never mind, it's taken a few years just to get somebody to make some aftermarket bearings -- let's not let the these little facts get in the way for a moment. Instead, exactly as I predicted, these people went absolutely dead silent in the Bearing Wiki thread as soon it was announced VAC has aftermarket custom made Clevite bearings (not kawasaki, or me, or anybody else). Just as I predicted, not a single one of those guys followed up to say "oops, sorry for all the BS I was spreading...guess I was wrong." As I predicted, they are all dead silent about it...absolute crickets from all of them.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by vsix

Dude, don't play with me Iam not in the mood for this right now

I could care less about your emotional state. It's a legit question. If you don't believe in an issue, what is the "it" issue you're talking about and is or is not the BMW dude dead wrong?

[vsix]

Originally Posted by regular guy

I could care less about your emotional state. It's a legit question. If you don't believe in an issue, what is the "it" issue you're talking about and is or is not the BMW dude dead wrong?

So do I of your's amd of your reply, thank you for your contribution.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by vsix

I do understood your brotherly intension to share your experience on here, I'm just not saying I'm dead-set just trying that OP's original attempt doesn't fail!
That's all. Referring about my own experience and clarifying.
Why are you barking at me now? Isn't there a chance, that what I said could be legit?

To answer your question:
No.

I once spoke to an german BMW mechanic and he looked at me pretty shocked, saying he NEVER experienced rod bearing failure as these motor's are pretty much bullet proof. Sure a main thing for ALL car's is proper maintenance.
Iam still convinced that it has something to do with operation of the vehicle, combined with temperature's AND oil...or gas ...not sure...

Look my friend....
This Worldwide problem allready exists from previous ///M5-6 with the 10 cyl. engine , and our S65 is actually the same engine with 2cyl. less !
But with the same problem , and I'm talking from about 15 years ago !
In other words...The S65 bearings are f@cked up by BMW and Worldwide !
I knew this from day 1 , and that's why I'm almost paranoia when I start my car and listen after ticking or rattle noises every single time !
That's why I receive also videos of S65's to listen ...and that for people from all over the world .
Because I just know what could happen at every single moment...and I've learned the last 3 years how our S65 "not" should sound.
I've some numbers (inside ///M numbers ) and I can tell you that they are shocking !
So please don't tell us that nothing is wrong with the bearings of our S65..
Even till today some are saying it's only "Internet hysteria" what's make me pissed
I've said this several times before and surely it's not the last time .
I had received last year a video (one of) with a very slight rattle when cold , I said to the guy ...stop driving your car and take it asap to your BWM/Dealer ..
The guy said I don't hear anything and I don't care, the result was ... a week later the guy was in the thread with the blown S65 engines...
Imagine...The situation...
Because the truth never lies...here some black holes !

[squartus]

Regular guy is making valid points with proof to back it, Vsix you are simply spreading hearsay because some "mechanic" looked shocked.
This is a global problem, europe, US, middle east, aussies as well etc. So saying its a gas problem is unfounded. Saying a sports car is breaking because it was driven like a sports car.. um yea no. Not to mention many of the bearing failures and massive wear are from guys who baby car and do 5k oil changes.

They do seem to be bullet proof after stroker builds, when tolerences etc are fixed.

[regular guy]

I still want to know who is the recipient of the "money printing machine?" Why are all of the guys saying this was an invented problem just for future profit now silent for 1+month after we see VAC (not regular guy, BMRLVR, or kawasaki00) first to market with aftermarket S65/S85 bearings? (Again, never mind it took years for even VAC to come up with an aftermarket bearing in the first place.) And was it a contradiction to use a BMW guy as reference to deny a rod bearing problem and then say "it" (the rod bearing problem") might be caused by driving habits, gasoline, etc?

[vsix]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Look my friend....
This Worldwide problem allready exists from previous ///M5-6 with the 10 cyl. engine , and our S65 is actually the same engine with 2cyl. less !
But with the same problem , and I'm talking from about 15 years ago !
In other words...The S65 bearings are f@cked up by BMW and Worldwide !
I knew this from day 1 , and that's why I'm almost paranoia when I start my car and listen after ticking or rattle noises every single time !
That's why I receive also videos of S65's to listen ...and that for people from all over the world .
Because I just know what could happen at every single moment...and I've learned the last 3 years how our S65 "not" should sound.
I've some numbers (inside ///M numbers ) and I can tell you that they are shocking !
So please don't tell us that nothing is wrong with the bearings of our S65..
Even till today some are saying it's only "Internet hysteria" what's make me pissed
I've said this several times before and surely it's not the last time .
I had received last year a video (one of) with a very slight rattle when cold , I said to the guy ...stop driving your car and take it asap to your BWM/Dealer ..
The guy said I don't hear anything and I don't care, the result was ... a week later the guy was in the thread with the blown S65 engines...
Imagine...The situation...
Because the truth never lies...here some black holes !

Understand your point, buddy.
You missunderstood my intervention, though.
I never said the bearing's are good! I said Iam convinced that other factor's like mentioned do contribute to a premature failing of these bearing's and that some use this as an opportunity to fill up fast their pocket's. The problem has been mentioned before...no one can out think a special engineering team that has been selected by BMW and that developed their engine parts with year's of experience in just a few month or like it seem's in a few day's. This is very, very delicate to pop up and state to have a solution for the rod bearing issue, when the cause isn't known only asumed and that's what I call hearsay.
As stated from another member...you shouldn't rely on hear say and that's what other member's do while thinking the replacement of bearing's with aftermarker one's will cure everything.
Guy's don't understand me wrong, Iam just not convinced that swapping out part's will solve the problem.
German engineering, these are dude's with highest educational standard's, to work in the M-department is a tough selection procedure required..these guy's brain's can be compared with mechanical, precise watches...never miss a beat.
To really get knowledgewise close to such guy's take's alot...wich I highly doubt some of the seller's even can come close. My honest oppinion.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by vsix

Understand your point, buddy.
You missunderstood my intervention, though.
I never said the bearing's are good! I said Iam convinced that other factor's like mentioned do contribute to a premature failing of these bearing's and that some use this as an opportunity to fill up fast their pocket's. The problem has been mentioned before...no one can out think a special engineering team that has been selected by BMW and that developed their engine parts with year's of experience in just a few month or like it seem's in a few day's. This is very, very delicate to pop up and state to have a solution for the rod bearing issue, when the cause isn't known only asumed and that's what I call hearsay.
As stated from another member...you shouldn't rely on hear say and that's what other member's do while thinking the replacement of bearing's with aftermarker one's will cure everything.
Guy's don't understand me wrong, Iam just not convinced that swapping out part's will solve the problem.
German engineering, these are dude's with highest educational standard's, to work in the M-department is a tough selection procedure required..these guy's brain's can be compared with mechanical, precise watches...never miss a beat.
To really get knowledgewise close to such guy's take's alot...wich I highly doubt some of the seller's even can come close. My honest oppinion.

It's also been stated before (and using your own approach to argument), that the BMW ///M engineers tried to outsmart 80+ years of industry experience and best practice which is documented in countless books, and even goes against the bearing manufacturer's own recommendations. Yeah, these guys are so smart and their approach been proven such a huge success.

I know one of the guys selected for this elite team at BMW ///M engineering. He had a hand in designing the S14 and successfully took BMW to F1. He's now freelance for the past 30 years. I guess you think he's one of those guys who is trying to out think his own former colleagues and has only a few years or few days of experience. BTW, if you're using aftermarket valve springs in your S65...he designed them.

There's nothing wrong with being skeptical of the issue. But if you're going to start throwing stones like "money printing machine" then don't you think you should be a little more descriptive and provide a little bit of proof of what you're talking about?

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by vsix

Understand your point, buddy.
You missunderstood my intervention, though.
I never said the bearing's are good! I said Iam convinced that other factor's like mentioned do contribute to a premature failing of these bearing's and that some use this as an opportunity to fill up fast their pocket's. The problem has been mentioned before...no one can out think a special engineering team that has been selected by BMW and that developed their engine parts with year's of experience in just a few month or like it seem's in a few day's. This is very, very delicate to pop up and state to have a solution for the rod bearing issue, when the cause isn't known only asumed and that's what I call hearsay.
As stated from another member...you shouldn't rely on hear say and that's what other member's do while thinking the replacement of bearing's with aftermarker one's will cure everything.
Guy's don't understand me wrong, Iam just not convinced that swapping out part's will solve the problem.
German engineering, these are dude's with highest educational standard's, to work in the M-department is a tough selection procedure required..these guy's brain's can be compared with mechanical, precise watches...never miss a beat.
To really get knowledgewise close to such guy's take's alot...wich I highly doubt some of the seller's even can come close. My honest oppinion.

At least they try to find some cure...and for free ! (so only respect) !
Can we say this from BMW ?...
Don't think so...Because they knew about this problem and the S65 is dating from 2007 + 2 years of testing ...so about 10 years !
What has BMW done in the mean while ?
Nothing than replacing S65's under warranty and a lot , because replacing was cheaper than a Worldwide recall and cure...=> That's what I call financial speculation !
BTW...BMW is making $$$$$$$ again when our S65 blows when out of warranty , because they are selling you a rebuilt S65 engine from previous owner with bearing failure ...
So I prefer to see a lot more to see people searching after a cure and for free than beeing f@cked up by BMW for the last 10 years !
So my friend who or what is cheaper ?
Sorry man that my words sound maybe hard but so it is when I'm talking about our damn bearings f@cked up by BMW , but in this case is it also...

[Pro-AM3]

Originally Posted by regular guy

It turns out, the factory rod bolts actually have more clamping force than the ARP-2000 or APR-625 rod bolts. The ARP's are better bolts, but still clamp less than factory. As a result, the ARP's do deform the rod big end bore as you expect, but not because it's too much clamping force, but in this case because it's too little. I will start a new thread soon with all of the measurements and graphs for rod bolts.

So, is there an installation difference with ARP studs, or something else recommended?