Rod bearings being changed as we speak [ DONE, Pics inside]

[anom3]

wow.

yea we didnt pull the motor, so the crank stayed inside, thus the main bearings were not done.

Originally Posted by theboss1853

Are you not getting your main bearings replaced as well? Just curious as I have my engine pulled now on my 2008 to replace the crank and rod bearings.

I actually spun a bearing so my crank has damage. Rods are in good shape thankfully...

My current list of replacements are:
Crankshaft
Rod Bearings
Main bearings
Oil Pump
Oil Line
Belts & Gaskets
Water pump
Clutch kit (found a broken pressure plate)
Head Bolts
Engine Mounts (both are cracked/broken)

Some pics here:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...postcount=2172

[PerfM5]

did you spin the bearing? looks like you might have... Any damage on the crank?

[xpunisherx]

Originally Posted by anom3

thanks, i though the bearings look quite good too. not an expert by any stretch here, but some of the pics i have seen were much worst then this.

the mechanics reaction to ceratec, mos2 or the 0w40 was as expected... 'i wouldnt run anything but 10w60 in there...'...

this is not an 'official' bmw stealership but certified bmw whatever that means... although they have some sort of relationship with some official bmw dealership here as a few months back when i asked them to search up a PUMA case for me, he made a call and asked 'can you please look this puma up for me ...'.

price wise they are considered on the VERY higher side here...

also the 1900usd i mentioned, included this:

http://www.ecstuning.com/Search/Belly/ES206651/

install next week.

on the other end, they over charged me for the oil as i see now had i gone out and got it myself, i would have paid 1/2 for the same tws.

ill probably mention it, but let is slide and have them drop the price on the next larger bill (if there is one...).

OP, where in Europe are you? I am in Germany, and want to get mine done soon (25k miles on the clock now...want them done around 30K).

Or anyone else in Europe know a good place to get them done?

Glad to see you got to yours in time!!

[s85e90]

Originally Posted by xpunisherx

OP, where in Europe are you? I am in Germany, and want to get mine done soon (25k miles on the clock now...want them done around 30K).

Or anyone else in Europe know a good place to get them done?

Glad to see you got to yours in time!!

In time? As opposed to what? This car probaly would've been fine for 100K miles. I get the peace of mind, but now you're looking at doing it w/ 30k on the car? What will you do it every 30k?? That's crazy IMO.. but the hysteria continues.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by V8FunNaturally

Of all the negative factors, the most detrimental to bearing wears by far will be day to day extra load from a flashed ECU tune. It will cause accelerated wear at every drive. Most tuned m3 are undoubtedly in the usa. Though there are some irresponsible euro owners who let their car be flash hacked over the internet which is a big mistake.

Other factors like ethanol and fuel additives could be a factor but unlike tunes it may not be significant :

- Ethanol, can separate from pure gasoline, as water is absorbed in ethanol only, it becomes heavier and accumulate at the bottom of the fuel tank. Ethanol being higher octane than pure gasoline, most of the fuel in the tank will have below pump rating octane and fuel at the bottom will have higher octane. But all modern cars ECU can adjust timing in real time to adjust to the fuel octane, including the s65. When the excess ethanol fuel is getting into the engine it will run hotter (ethanol burns at higher temperature than gasoline) but produces less power (in a NA engine) and more fuel consumption.
When the low octane fuel in the tank is used, timing is automatically advanced to avoid detonation. That also reduces power and engine might run more rough.

-Additives are detergents. They clean the inside of the engine. However residues can slip past the piston rings into the oil pan. Oil + detergent will reduce the lubricating ability of the oil. This is where it can affect bearings. There are hundreds of additives in commercial fuels. It is not reserved to any geographical region of the world. The remedy is to change the oil more often as it gets contaminated with those soapy additives.

Again, tune is the major factor when it comes to bearing wear. This present case looks like a non-tuned car. There is expected wear due to the over tight bmw design tolerance on the engine but if it was tuned there would be much more wear.

Not agreed !
And the blown S65's with only 6-7K miles on it... stock cars and not tuned,builts of end of 2013 ?
I confess my car is Internet remote tuned from BPM (in your words flash hacked) and my car runs just perfect , engine runs a lot smoother and consumes less...
Remind that some people had blown engine not once but twice !
So I'll repait your comment is actualy a joke !
The only reason that we are seeing blown S65's it's because BMW f@cked up by design flaw..in nice words a BMW mistake which we will need to have deep pockets !
What was the problem with previous ///M5-6 ? Yep same thing !
Our S65 is actualy the same engine with two cylinders less but with the same problem and exists for over 10-12 years when ///M5-6 had bearing failures !
The problem is repeated and that's the only reason !
And what they have done is nothing....

[s85e90]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Not agreed !
And the blown S65's with only 6-7K miles on it... stock cars and not tuned,builts of end of 2013 ?
I confess my car is Internet remote tuned from BPM (in your words flash hacked) and my car runs just perfect , engine runs a lot smoother and consumes less...
Remind that some people had blown engine not once but twice !
So I'll repait your comment is actualy a joke !
The only reason that we are seeing blown S65's it's because BMW f@cked up by design flaw..in nice words a BMW mistake which we will need to have deep pockets !
What was the problem with previous ///M5-6 ? Yep same thing !
Our S65 is actualy the same engine with two cylinders less but with the same problem and exists for over 10-12 years when ///M5-6 had bearing failures !
The problem is repeated and that's the only reason !
And what they have done is nothing....

You need to either move on or I don't know. You are the biggest complainer about these cars yet you still drive one

[V8FunNaturally]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Not agreed !
And the blown S65's with only 6-7K miles on it... stock cars and not tuned,builts of end of 2013 ?
I confess my car is Internet remote tuned from BPM (in your words flash hacked) and my car runs just perfect , engine runs a lot smoother and consumes less...
Remind that some people had blown engine not once but twice !
So I'll repait your comment is actualy a joke !
The only reason that we are seeing blown S65's it's because BMW f@cked up by design flaw..in nice words a BMW mistake which we will need to have deep pockets !
What was the problem with previous ///M5-6 ? Yep same thing !
Our S65 is actualy the same engine with two cylinders less but with the same problem and exists for over 10-12 years when ///M5-6 had bearing failures !
The problem is repeated and that's the only reason !
And what they have done is nothing....

you're naive and biased. Tuned engines provide higher output than stock engine by putting the engine under more stress day after day to deliver it. That's Fact. Not debatable.
No matter how loud you scream you'll have to face the consequences. Your tuned engine should be your first concern on the spun bearing issue, not fuel, not ethanol, not additives, not geographic region, but your tune.
A spun bearing is a catastrophic sudden failure, as seen in all cases, with almost never any foretelling signs or sound. So keep telling yourself yours runs smooth. That's almost funny.
Bmw over tight design on the bearing/journals makes the tolerance on those parts almost impractical. That's old. It's the nature of the design and there is a small risk with owning this car. But When discussing how to mitigate this from the consumer side then avoiding tune is common sense !

Ethanol, or fuel quality, that's all just superficial talk, start by returning your ECU back to stock if you want better odds for your engine. Even if bmw limited "know how" resulted in a less than 100% bearing problem free units. They should still reject any spun bearing engine that had a tune. That's in the warranty. Some people tuned their cars at delivery in their first week of owning the car (many posts back in 2008,9,10).

Where we all agree is that bmw is reponsible for stock maintained cars. For tuned cars, not at all.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by s85e90

You need to either move on or I don't know. You are the biggest complainer about these cars yet you still drive one

I like my car and a lot and will keep her , but I don't like to see all those people in serious trouble caused by BMW !
You know it's not a Kia we are talking about it's a BMW and an ///M BMW those cars are not cheap over here => 104,000 Euro !
Don't need to say this because you know it too and think that the truth must be told , and i'm feeling all this people their dream car ending with a black hole in engine block , I'm not sure that you can imagine such a situation ? But I do .

[kawasaki00]

Blows me away how people are so matter of fact on something they do not understand.

[Rupes]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Not agreed !
And the blown S65's with only 6-7K miles on it... stock cars and not tuned,builts of end of 2013 ?

You always seem to bring this up. I once blew a Mazda 6 engine with 9k miles on it. Was driven like a baby. Shit happens, even on less powerful cars. Can we go ahead and assume that the one instance you found of an engine blowing at 6k miles was an anomaly? More likely is an issue past 60k miles. Much more likely than that is nothing happening at all...

It's a problem, we get it. I don't think we need to go to extreme examples to prove a point though.

Also, OP's bearings look worn by normal standards, but prob could have done at least double the mileage without incident.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by V8FunNaturally

you're naive and biased. Tuned engines provide higher output than stock engine by putting the engine under more stress day after day to deliver it. That's Fact. Not debatable.
No matter how loud you scream you'll have to face the consequences. Your tuned engine should be your first concern on the spun bearing issue, not fuel, not ethanol, not additives, not geographic region, but your tune.
A spun bearing is a catastrophic sudden failure, as seen in all cases, with almost never any foretelling signs or sound. So keep telling yourself yours runs smooth. That's almost funny.
Bmw over tight design on the bearing/journals makes the tolerance on those parts almost impractical. That's old. It's the nature of the design and there is a small risk with owning this car. But When discussing how to mitigate this from the consumer side then avoiding tune is common sense !

Ethanol, or fuel quality, that's all just superficial talk, start by returning your ECU back to stock if you want better odds for your engine. Even if bmw limited "know how" resulted in a less than 100% bearing problem free units. They should still reject any spun bearing engine that had a tune. That's in the warranty. Some people tuned their cars at delivery in their first week of owning the car (many posts back in 2008,9,10).

Where we all agree is that bmw is reponsible for stock maintained cars. For tuned cars, not at all.

For you I'll repait my question because I had no answer ...
And the blown S65's with only 6-7K miles on it... stock cars and not tuned,builts of end of 2013 ?

Note : I like to say the facts such as they are and what we see and what is happening with our S65 tuned or not , I'm raised that way ...Nothing against you , actualy against nobody on this forum , I only stand behind the truth .....allways do !
So is it normal that an engine blows ...a stock engine with only 6-7K on it ?
Is it normal that engine blows after 10 months ? A stock engine under BMW warranty ?
BMW replaced that engine under warranty...no problem !
But after a year it blows again ? Also normal ?

Look my friend it's alll about that I have some numbers from the ///M German factory but I can't tell this public , and that's the raison why I've some special angry reactions on here ! (I'm reading comments without the depth info of the Worldwide S65 problem)
Would love to get some answers on my questions and after reading your comment I will see if I send my info to you via PM or not ....

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Rupes

You always seem to bring this up. I once blew a Mazda 6 engine with 9k miles on it. Was driven like a baby. Shit happens, even on less powerful cars. Can we go ahead and assume that the one instance you found of an engine blowing at 6k miles was an anomaly? More likely is an issue past 60k miles. Much more likely than that is nothing happening at all...

It's a problem, we get it. I don't think we need to go to extreme examples to prove a point though.

Also, OP's bearings look worn by normal standards, but prob could have done at least double the mileage without incident.

I was saying exactly the same thing in # 24 , about another 77,000 km ?
And for me personal it's absolutely not normal that engine blows with 6K on it extreme example or not , for a Mazda maybe yes but we are talking about an ///M engine !

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

Blows me away how people are so matter of fact on something they do not understand.

I realy have respect for your knowledge about our S65 engine !
But I have something more... and finally PM'd you .

[V8FunNaturally]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

For you I'll repait my question because I had no answer ...
And the blown S65's with only 6-7K miles on it... stock cars and not tuned,builts of end of 2013 ?

Note : I like to say the facts such as they are and what we see and what is happening with our S65 tuned or not , I'm raised that way ...Nothing against you , actualy against nobody on this forum , I only stand behind the truth .....allways do !
So is it normal that an engine blows ...a stock engine with only 6-7K on it ?
Is it normal that engine blows after 10 months ? A stock engine under BMW warranty ?
BMW replaced that engine under warranty...no problem !
But after a year it blows again ? Also normal ?

Look my friend it's alll about that I have some numbers from the ///M German factory but I can't tell this public , and that's the raison why I've some special angry reactions on here ! (I'm reading comments without the depth info of the Worldwide S65 problem)
Would love to get some answers on my questions and after reading your comment I will see if I send my info to you via PM or not ....

I don't know if it's a language barrier but my position to those questions was clear:"there is a small risk with owning this car" and "Bmw over tight design on the bearing/journals makes the tolerance on those parts almost impractical." I do blame bmw for their over tight design choices for the bearings but no product is perfect otherwise competition among brand wouldn't exist. All that matters for the customer is that they replace at no charge stock maintained engines that fail, without exceptions (not with a tune or FI). If they default on that, it's a legal matter. But they will always settle in favor of providing a free engine than risking seeing a disgruntled owner loose a lawsuit against them making a permanent website of negative experiences with their brand. Case where the engine was FI and/or Tuned are the ones where they may refuse a replacement.
No need to be condescending because you heard the global # of broken units from your mechanic spying at bmw GA during his training. That info is also known by 'connected' GM at the dealerships and some do talk. No stock engine owner has been left without a replacement.

You will not obtain what you want which is it to condone tuning just because there is a design flaw affecting a small percentage of units (<3-4% when including tuned and FI units, LESS for stock maintained).

[Helmsman]

Whatever way we turn this, fact remains that we've seen few or even no pulled bearings in shape regardless of mileage, tune, gasquality, area temperatur, or claimed maintenance/babying.

Like the rest of you aI continue to love my M3 and in my case without worry as under warranty. Once that is gone different story.

In my mind there is no doubt an issue going but at what level is simply impossible to grasp as we at the same time have piles of engines running strong for a long time. Mine will be one of them, I hope.

Cheers

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by V8FunNaturally

I don't know if it's a language barrier but my position to those questions was clear:"there is a small risk with owning this car" and "Bmw over tight design on the bearing/journals makes the tolerance on those parts almost impractical." I do blame bmw for their over tight design choices for the bearings but no product is perfect otherwise competition among brand wouldn't exist. All that matters for the customer is that they replace at no charge stock maintained engines that fail, without exceptions (not with a tune or FI). If they default on that, it's a legal matter. But they will always settle in favor of providing a free engine than risking seeing a disgruntled owner loose a lawsuit against them making a permanent website of negative experiences with their brand. Case where the engine was FI and/or Tuned are the ones where they may refuse a replacement.
No need to be condescending because you heard the global # of broken units from your mechanic spying at bmw GA during his training. That info is also known by 'connected' GM at the dealerships and some do talk. No stock engine owner has been left without a replacement.

You will not obtain what you want which is it to condone tuning just because there is a design flaw affecting a small percentage (<3-4% when tuned and FI engine are included LESS for stock only) units.

Now I see...So now there is suddenly a problem with the s65 "and a risk with owning this car" thought that was only on tuned cars !
And how about for the people out of warranty with only 20-30K on it when engine blows ?
Seems you are seeing only the sunny side ?
Also forget about BMW goodwill over here they don't even know that word , same thing when second engine blows ,when first engine blows under waranty it's replaced under warranty by BMW by a rebuilt engine from previous bearing failure .(when still under warranty)
But when second engine blows it's for your pockets deep or not even under warranty time period ! (2 years over here)
And I'm out of warranty with 32K on it,and with 0 problems .
But the S65 has a problem and a big Worldwide problem !

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

Blows me away how people are so matter of fact on something they do not understand.

No doubt my friend, no doubt.

[dreamspeed]

The part i'm confused about is this.

IF the problem is due to tight tolerances on the OEM bearings....isn't everyone just replacing the OEM bearings with another set of OEM bearings?

So....isn't the problem still there? I mean there is actually a chance that you are replacing your original bearings with new bearings that have even crappier tolerances?

[dreamspeed]

Originally Posted by V8FunNaturally

Of all the negative factors, the most detrimental to bearing wears by far will be day to day extra load from a flashed ECU tune. It will cause accelerated wear at every drive. Most tuned m3 are undoubtedly in the usa. Though there are some irresponsible euro owners who let their car be flash hacked over the internet which is a big mistake.

I don't know how much I would attribute bearing problems with a tune but you are definitely correct in saying that a tune increases the wear on an engine.

It's just common sense, you can't just increase the output of something and expect there to be not be any additional wear/load.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by dreamspeed

I don't know how much I would attribute bearing problems with a tune but you are definitely correct in saying that a tune increases the wear on an engine.

It's just common sense, you can't just increase the output of something and expect there to be not be any additional wear/load.

A tune increases the wear on S65 with the + 10HP tune on it ?
Than we realy need to talk about the supercharged S65's with +200HP on it ?

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by dreamspeed

The part i'm confused about is this.

IF the problem is due to tight tolerances on the OEM bearings....isn't everyone just replacing the OEM bearings with another set of OEM bearings?

So....isn't the problem still there? I mean there is actually a chance that you are replacing your original bearings with new bearings that have even crappier tolerances?

Yes and no. Prior to 2010.5, all bearings were lead/copper and had tighter tolerance than the current bearings. Replacing these older bearings with current ones will slightly improve the clearance. If you replace 2011 and later bearings with current bearings, then you are replacing like for like and no clearance benefit is gained. But most people add WPC treatment on top of that which opens the clearances up slightly.

Adding the Calico coating will reduce clearance by adding a low-friction coating. Even though it reduces clearance, this option remains popular among some folks.

If you're curious about bearings, clearance, and actual measurements, then this thread will give you all the gory details:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=892838

More updates are planned for that thread in the coming weeks.

[dreamspeed]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Yes and no. Prior to 2010.5, all bearings were lead/copper and had tighter tolerance than the current bearings. Replacing these older bearings with current ones will slightly improve the clearance. If you replace 2011 and later bearings with current bearings, then you are replacing like for like and no clearance benefit is gained. But most people add WPC treatment on top of that which opens the clearances up slightly.

Adding the Calico coating will reduce clearance by adding a low-friction coating. Even though it reduces clearance, this option remains popular among some folks.

If you're curious about bearings, clearance, and actual measurements, then this thread will give you all the gory details:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=892838

More updates are planned for that thread in the coming weeks.

I've read through pretty much all of the bearing threads on here. I'm not really convinced replacing my current bearings with anything on the market right now is a "true" fix. Hopefully the new clevite option comes through soon.