Whos running Mobil 1 0w-40?

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

I think the crux of SFP's argument is that when oil temps get elevated the oil thins out, and, if it becomes too thin to protect the engine bad things can happen. What everyone else is saying is that there is no evidence that M1 0w40 gets too thin to adequately protect the engine even in extreme heat environments as many members have run this oil at the track with no issues and clean oil analysis reports.

Exactly

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

Dont need to check with my buddies, we race 300-320 on oil all day long with water temp of 250-260. No failures from June to November. Now that is a racing engine but the fact remains the oil is good way beyond your stated spec of 210.

OK now I see the misunderstanding.
I'm not saying that oil is great at 210 and engines blow up at 250F. However engine wear does increase as oil temps increase...continue increasing the oil temp and you will reach a point where the engine will expire.
And as I said its not a straight line relationship but exponential.
The question then becomes if 0W40 can be used for tracking M3s with absolutely no downside at all then why not a 0W20?

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

OK now I see the misunderstanding.
I'm not saying that oil is great at 210 and engines blow up at 250F. However engine wear does increase as oil temps increase...continue increasing the oil temp and you will reach a point where the engine will expire.
And as I said its not a straight line relationship but exponential.
The question then becomes if 0W40 can be used for tracking M3s with absolutely no downside at all then why not a 0W20?

Last time Clevite was here they talked about the 0-20 stuff in the newer cars. Even they said with the clearance that the s65 has they would like to see a 0-20/30 mated to it. They also then said they didnt think a 0-20/30 would stand up to the high rpm so probably best to stick to the 40wt.
The 0-20 might work but for me the engine is too expensive to just see if it works. If it was a small block chevy that is super cheap to rebuild I would try it. According to the BMW specs 1bar is sufficient at idle but I dont have money to blow if the 0-20 doesnt work.

[aussiem3]

This is a very oily business.

[thekurgan]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

Last time Clevite was here they talked about the 0-20 stuff in the newer cars. Even they said with the clearance that the s65 has they would like to see a 0-20/30 mated to it. They also then said they didnt think a 0-20/30 would stand up to the high rpm so probably best to stick to the 40wt.
The 0-20 might work but for me the engine is too expensive to just see if it works. If it was a small block chevy that is super cheap to rebuild I would try it. According to the BMW specs 1bar is sufficient at idle but I dont have money to blow if the 0-20 doesnt work.

Is Clevite mentioning that ALL of the engine's bearing clearances are out of proper spec for 10w-60 or just the rod bearing clearances? I'll go back through some posts; I may have read my own answer and lost it

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by thekurgan

Is Clevite mentioning that ALL of the engine's bearing clearances are out of proper spec for 10w-60 or just the rod bearing clearances? I'll go back through some posts; I may have read my own answer and lost it

They are both too tight for the 10-60.

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

They are both too tight for the 10-60.

If the clearance was right, do you think 10w-60 is still too thick? Wondering, if the clearance was as spec, using M1 0w-40 will cause excessive play?

[thekurgan]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

They are both too tight for the 10-60.

Thanks, man, you saved me some time, no, a LOT of time.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

If the clearance was right, do you think 10w-60 is still too thick? Wondering, if the clearance was as spec, using M1 0w-40 will cause excessive play?

If the clearance is correct it will work the problem is when cold it is still thick and takes too long to pump to the rod bearings. Those who live in the tropics wont have that issue but up north I wouldnt run it even with the right clearance.
I don't think there would be excessive play. Getting to the point of it starting to rattle around would be way over the clearance (like .003) clearance.

[Killerfish2012]

I'm sortta kinda with Mr. Funky pants. M1 0W40 is a great oil for winter. Scratch that, the only oil you should be freaking using for winter, and should be fine year round. However, on a closed circuit track, in the hands of an intermediate to advanced driver, this car needs a proper racing oil. Whether that oil is Motul 5W40, or My favorite: Total 10W50, make sure there is a drawing of a checkered flack on the bottle, together with the words: "racing". M1 0W40 is simply not a racing spec oil. Is it a good oil? Yes. Is it super popular because of it's availability, and cost? Yes. Just read the back of the bottle carefully, Mobil rates it as being in the middle of the pack, with a strong recommendation for their stronger 5W30 for 15K mile oil changes. Note M1 0W40 is not recommended for extended drain intervals, and not their racing oil. That would be M1 5W50.

With all this being said, based on the current winter ambient temps, I will briefly use M10W40 for a track day in early April, but for my next one in May through October I will be switching to Total 10W50.

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

I'm sortta kinda with Mr. Funky pants. M1 0W40 is a great oil for winter. Scratch that, the only oil you should be freaking using for winter, and should be fine year round. However, on a closed circuit track, in the hands of an intermediate to advanced driver, this car needs a proper racing oil. Whether that oil is Motul 5W40, or My favorite: Total 10W50, make sure there is a drawing of a checkered flack on the bottle, together with the words: "racing". M1 0W40 is simply not a racing spec oil. Is it a good oil? Yes. Is it super popular because of it's availability, and cost? Yes. Just read the back of the bottle carefully, Mobil rates it as being in the middle of the pack, with a strong recommendation for their stronger 5W30 for 15K mile oil changes. Note M1 0W40 is not recommended for extended drain intervals, and not their racing oil. That would be M1 5W50.

With all this being said, based on the current winter ambient temps, I will briefly use M10W40 for a track day in early April, but for my next one in May through October I will be switching to Total 10W50.

Not sure where you are getting your info from but it sounds kind of arbitrary. What is your evidence to support this? A street car driven on a track doesnt necessarily need "racing" oil. M1 is the factory fill for numerous high performance cars that are made for the track.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

Not sure where you are getting your info from but it sounds kind of arbitrary. What is your evidence to support this? A street car driven on a track doesnt necessarily need "racing" oil. M1 is the factory fill for numerous high performance cars that are made for the track.

I don't need evidence. I'm just going with manufacturer information obtained from the website, and the back of the M1 bottle. In fact, if you search your car on the M1 website, it even states that they don't make an oil for our car. If the manufacturer is not willing to state that a particular oil should be used in your car past 15K miles, or refers you to another oil for racing applications, you should listen.

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

If the clearance is correct it will work the problem is when cold it is still thick and takes too long to pump to the rod bearings. Those who live in the tropics wont have that issue but up north I wouldnt run it even with the right clearance.
I don't think there would be excessive play. Getting to the point of it starting to rattle around would be way over the clearance (like .003) clearance.

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

I don't need evidence. I'm just going with manufacturer information obtained from the website, and the back of the M1 bottle. In fact, if you search your car on the M1 website, it even states that they don't make an oil for our car. If the manufacturer is not willing to state that a particular oil should be used in your car past 15K miles, or refers you to another oil for racing applications, you should listen.

BMW recommends 10w-60 for our cars and M1 doesnt make an oil in this specification which is why the website says that. Many users have used M1 at the track no issues and UOA's to prove it. So other than your opinion, it seems like you have nothing to back up your assertion

[SenorFunkyPants]

Maybe give Mobil or Castrol USA tech support a ring?
If you can get past the person who just reads the oil recommendations off their computer screen and talk to someone in the actual tech support department you can have some interesting discussions.
Mobil told me that they do not recommend 0W40 M1 at all for the E9x M3 and that the nearest they have is their 10W60 oil.
I have also had around 2 hours of conversation with Castrols advanced tech support department as well. My position on not using a 0W40 oil (either Mobil 1 or Castrols own 0W40) as a track oil [Edit: for S65 M3s] reflects the conversations I have had with both oil manufacturers.
But hey its your dollar you go with whatever you fancy but don't take the fact that there has been only one M3 (that we know of) run on M1 that has expired so far, as an indication that M1 is a reliable oil for [edit: S65] cars being tracked.

[Iyzmi]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

If you can get past the person who just reads the oil recommendations off their computer screen

What exactly do you think the "advanced tech support" is doing when you call them? Who do you think you are actually talking to?

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

BMW recommends 10w-60 for our cars and M1 doesnt make an oil in this specification which is why the website says that. Many users have used M1 at the track no issues and UOA's to prove it. So other than your opinion, it seems like you have nothing to back up your assertion

1. That's not evidence

2. The company does not back that oil for that specific kind of use. None whatsoever. They recommend M1 5W50 which they specifically made for racing situations.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Maybe give Mobil or Castrol USA tech support a ring?
If you can get past the person who just reads the oil recommendations off their computer screen and talk to someone in the actual tech support department you can have some interesting discussions.
Mobil told me that they do not recommend 0W40 M1 at all for the E9x M3 and that the nearest they have is their 10W60 oil.
I have also had around 2 hours of conversation with Castrols advanced tech support department as well. My position on not using a 0W40 oil (either Mobil 1 or Castrols own 0W40) as a track oil reflects the conversations I have had with both oil manufacturers.
But hey its your dollar you go with whatever you fancy but don't take the fact that there has been only one M3 (that we know of) run on M1 that has expired so far, as an indication that M1 is a reliable oil for cars being tracked.

The issue though isn't so much the oil weight as it is the oil's intended use. For instance Motul racing 5W40 would work, in the S65 for the track as well as M1 racing 5W50.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by Iyzmi

What exactly do you think the "advanced tech support" is doing when you call them? Who do you think you are actually talking to?

I know exactly who i am talking to, the guy is a tribologist...its his job.
I've pmed you some details.

[Z K]

I really doubt Mobil 1 or Castrol or anyone would recommend an oil for racing that is not their racing oil. They are liable if they recommend you something and your car fails. Also, "racing" oils do not contain a lot of the detergents and other stuff found in regular oil. That's why if you look at Mobil's web site, it specifically states racing oil is not for street use.

The thing is, track days do not constitute "Racing". You are just driving on track for 20 minutes at a time. The load your engine sees really does not approach the kind of wear and tear in a real race situation which is a lot longer duration.

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by Z K

The thing is, track days do not constitute "Racing". You are just driving on track for 20 minutes at a time. The load your engine sees really does not approach the kind of wear and tear in a real race situation which is a lot longer duration.

Agreed and that is what I was getting at with my comment a few posts back about a street car that does some track time not needing racing oil.

I think killerfish is maybe speaking about a car that is built for racing and not for use on the street needing special race oil to which I would agree. But I dont think anyone on here is using a racing oil, regardless of whether or not they track their cars, as those oils have properties not conducive for street driven cars.

[Iyzmi]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I know exactly who i am talking to, the guy is a tribologist...its his job.
I've pmed you some details.

You PMed me saying it's BP's technical manager (whatever that means) and that you have his name and email. Not sure why you wouldn't just post that here, you didn't send his actual name or anything that you'd want to keep private...not that I really care to know his name and contact details in the first place.

What makes you think this individual has done extensive research and report analysis on the S65 engine and an oil that he has nothing to do with (M1)? You are, after all, asking him about a very specific topic rather than a general oil-related question that a tribologist would be qualified to answer. I wouldn't even assume he is exceptionally familiar with this engine, let alone how it performs with non-BMW endorsed oils unless he has indicated otherwise. He is probably just referencing the factory recommended specification to use TWS 10w60 and not giving it any further thought. I would highly doubt he is going out of his way to research this specific topic as many of the folks here have done (including the tribologist from BITOG who literally helped develop TWS). The whole point of the discussion here is that there are people who are very familiar with this engine and have analysed reports and physical evidence with the specific oils in question. I would trust what they have to say more than someone who is simply referencing what they see on a computer screen and have no further involvement in this topic.

Do you honestly think someone who works for Castrol would tell you it is ok to go against the factory recommended oil that they are trying to sell you and instead would recommend going with a completely different product from a different brand? Why would he do that, especially if he hasn't done extensive research into it himself? On the flip side, do you think the tech support you spoke with at M1 has done any further analysis than referencing a recommended oil chart on their computer screen?