Manual fluid in the DCT - Experiences appreciated

[Helmsman]

So the dealer managed after all to fill the DCT with manual transmission oil (83222339221). Shame after 4 week work, all gasket and both filter changed...
After confirming with another dealer and a bit of arguing they eventually agreed. Car scheduled back for fluid change during the week.

Now as they clearly has not checked how to do this in the first place I want to try to force them to follow BMW routines this time, what ever that it.

Hence wondering if there are guys out there with experience from this, and how your dealer worked it. One flush OK? Two flush? Taking the frickin' box apart for cleaning?

All inputs highly appreciated!

PS. Have driven the car some without noticing any issues.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

So the dealer managed after all to fill the DCT with manual transmission oil (83222339221). Shame after 4 week work, all gasket and both filter changed...
After confirming with another dealer and a bit of arguing they eventually agreed. Car scheduled back for fluid change during the week.

Now as they clearly has not checked how to do this in the first place I want to try to force them to follow BMW routines this time, what ever that it.

Hence wondering if there are guys out there with experience from this, and how your dealer worked it. One flush OK? Two flush? Taking the frickin' box apart for cleaning?

All inputs highly appreciated!


PS. Have driven the car some without noticing any issues.

Do you received my Email as reply to yours ?
You realy need the Pentosin with part nr : Pentosin 83222148578 DCT F-1.
Pic...

[rantarM3]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

So the dealer managed after all to fill the DCT with manual transmission oil (83222339221). Shame after 4 week work, all gasket and both filter changed...
After confirming with another dealer and a bit of arguing they eventually agreed. Car scheduled back for fluid change during the week.

Now as they clearly has not checked how to do this in the first place I want to try to force them to follow BMW routines this time, what ever that it.

Hence wondering if there are guys out there with experience from this, and how your dealer worked it. One flush OK? Two flush? Taking the frickin' box apart for cleaning?

All inputs highly appreciated!

PS. Have driven the car some without noticing any issues.

That's terrible news, although somewhat expected based on the part number on your invoice. Contacting BMW directly and getting their assessment of the proper way to correct this may not be out of the question. The dealer certainly wants to "fix it" as cheaply as possible, which probably means new fluid (but perhaps not new filters). There's going to be some residual manual transmission fluid in there that mixes with the DCT fluid; not sure it is possible to get every last molecule out. Perhaps the only way to get most of the fluid out and replaced would be to somehow disconnect the feed/return transmission lines and interpose a barrel full of DCT fluid so that the old fluid gets dumped into a container while it sucks in the proper fluid.

Keep us posted.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Do you received my Email as reply to yours ?
You realy need the Pentosin with part nr : Pentosin 83222148578 DCT F-1.
Pic...

No I didn't Philippe, seems our mail systems doesn't like each other...I'll send one away and let's see if a Reply on that works.

Yep, that's the one the other dealer (obviously) came up with, on the spot.

Thanks

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

No I didn't Philippe, seems our mail systems doesn't like each other...I'll send one away and let's see if a Reply on that works.

Yep, that's the one the other dealer (obviously) came up with, on the spot.

Thanks

Nik I sent you right now 2 new Emails on your 2 different Email addresses ....
So do you received Email from me ?

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Nik I sent you right now 2 new Emails on your 2 different Email addresses ....
So do you received Email from me ?

Nope..! Frustrating, I'll shoot another one away.

Thanks mate,
Nik

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

Nope..! Frustrating, I'll shoot another one away.

Thanks mate,
Nik

Must be something wrong with the Belgian local provider/server or in Sweden to receive my Emails !
Strange because I never had this before...
That's why I sent you a PM on this forum with the correct links and part nr of Pentosin .
Hope at least that you received my PM ?
Also I just sent you another Email with the links....Received that Nik ?

[Helmsman]

PM received, thanks Philippe!

Cheers
Nik

[SJL Custom]

The biggest issue here is the saturation of the manual transmission fluid into the friction material of the clutch discs. The oem clutch frictions are mainly composed of a paper based material, which means that they soak fluid well. That being said, the manual trans fluid has probably already soaked up into the clutch and will therefor compromise the gripping ability of the clutch over time. No mater how many consecutive flushes you do etc, you will never restore those discs. Only a new clutch assembly will do that. So while the trans is pulled to replace the clutch, pull the side pan for the mechatronics unit and pull the bottom pan and filters and just clean everything out. This is the only true way of cleaning up from a mess like this.

[Helmsman]

Thanks for the input guys, short update below.

Left my car with the dealer this morning. The guys do seem to have tried their best first round (I was all over them already at that stage). What happened is a unfortunate mistake when the oil was handed to them from their store. Next time they'll know what the bottle should look like... Had a fair chat with the site mgr about their routines and QA, however it what it is.

The plan agreed now is that they will do a complete flush times two. They are apparently able to empty the complete system incl cooler and lines. As I haven't experienced any clutch slip or funny gear changes, I'm hoping the clutches still are in shape but will only be able to tell once the Winter is over and I can add proper load.
My intention is to obtain written coverage should this start to occur Spring time, in addition they leave a two year warranty on the actual job.

Ah well...

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

Thanks for the input guys, short update below.

Left my car with the dealer this morning. The guys do seem to have tried their best first round (I was all over them already at that stage). What happened is a unfortunate mistake when the oil was handed to them from their store. Next time they'll know what the bottle should look like... Had a fair chat with the site mgr about their routines and QA, however it what it is.

The plan agreed now is that they will do a complete flush times two. They are apparently able to empty the complete system incl cooler and lines. As I haven't experienced any clutch slip or funny gear changes, I'm hoping the clutches still are in shape but will only be able to tell once the Winter is over and I can add proper load.
My intention is to obtain written coverage should this start to occur Spring time, in addition they leave a two year warranty on the actual job.

Ah well...

The right move was needed in this case !
Well done Nik with the written coverage

[BzsBimmer]

Interesting that they are just going to flush the system x2. Early on when the E9x M3 DCT came out, some dealers were changing with the wrong oil after break in and BMW was replacing the entire transmision.

[SJL Custom]

Originally Posted by BzsBimmer

Interesting that they are just going to flush the system x2. Early on when the E9x M3 DCT came out, some dealers were changing with the wrong oil after break in and BMW was replacing the entire transmision.

This is because you are not able to just flush the trans out as I stated before. The clutch has to be replaced and the entire unit completely cleaned out. BMW doesn't trust their techs enough to do this so they would tell them to just replace the whole unit. Much easier and less time spent for the tech.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by SJL Custom

This is because you are not able to just flush the trans out as I stated before. The clutch has to be replaced and the entire unit completely cleaned out. BMW doesn't trust their techs enough to do this so they would tell them to just replace the whole unit. Much easier and less time spent for the tech.

The clutches worries me of course still. The dealer is talking with BMW Sweden who of couse have limited experience from this as well. I've told them they need to get ref input from Germany who we know have seen this before and been involved in resolution. The dealer can't talk directly with Germany...What I need is the method confirmed ie flush definitely ok. I will try to reach BMW Sweden myself...

Thanks

[bdaddylo]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

The clutches worries me of course still. The dealer is talking with BMW Sweden who of couse have limited experience from this as well. I've told them they need to get ref input from Germany who we know have seen this before and been involved in resolution. The dealer can't talk directly with Germany...What I need is the method confirmed ie flush definitely ok. I will try to reach BMW Sweden myself...

Thanks

Surely there is a BMW representative in Sweden who is supposed to handle these types of incidents as well as warranty claims.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by SJL Custom

The biggest issue here is the saturation of the manual transmission fluid into the friction material of the clutch discs. The oem clutch frictions are mainly composed of a paper based material, which means that they soak fluid well. That being said, the manual trans fluid has probably already soaked up into the clutch and will therefor compromise the gripping ability of the clutch over time. No mater how many consecutive flushes you do etc, you will never restore those discs. Only a new clutch assembly will do that. So while the trans is pulled to replace the clutch, pull the side pan for the mechatronics unit and pull the bottom pan and filters and just clean everything out. This is the only true way of cleaning up from a mess like this.

Hi SJL,

FYI I have halted the 2xflush while the dealer are waiting for further instructions from BMW.

I've driven the car about 110 miles before I checked the bill and realized it was filled with MT fluid, carefully as we have vinter. I can't say that I noticed any strange behavor in these conditions, however I did notice a (very) slight burned smell at one stop.

Would your experience be able to judge if the clutches in fact may have survived, or would you say they definitely will be damaged permantly from soaking MT oil, regardless of short time/use?

Maybe BMW comes back with the new direction to swop the clutches, I will know next week. However if they keep to the flush only strategy, I appreciate as much understanding of the issue as possible when engaging the negotiation.

Your inputs are appreciated.

Thanks

[SJL Custom]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

Hi SJL,

FYI I have halted the 2xflush while the dealer are waiting for further instructions from BMW.

I've driven the car about 110 miles before I checked the bill and realized it was filled with MT fluid, carefully as we have vinter. I can't say that I noticed any strange behavor in these conditions, however I did notice a (very) slight burned smell at one stop.

Would your experience be able to judge if the clutches in fact may have survived, or would you say they definitely will be damaged permantly from soaking MT oil, regardless of short time/use?

Maybe BMW comes back with the new direction to swop the clutches, I will know next week. However if they keep to the flush only strategy, I appreciate as much understanding of the issue as possible when engaging the negotiation.

Your inputs are appreciated.

Thanks

Well first off, the burning smell you had is probably residual trans fluid burning off the exhaust pipes. The fill point is right next to the exhaust on the passenger side of trans and is quite tight.

Second, even after two flushes, there will still be manual trans fluid left over in the trans. There are fluid cavities that just simply don't drain when you just pull the drain plug. Whenever we pull and disassemble a DCT, there is at least 2-3 liters of fluid left over inside. A full fill from dry is approx. 10 liters.

Third, like I mentioned before, the clutches absorb the fluid that passes by and around them. Its impossible to say how much this will affect the clutches. That being said, I would strongly suggest changing them rather than just turning a blind eye and ignoring the fact that youll probably have issues in the future. If they do not want to include changing the clutches for you and cleaning everything inside the trans, including flushing the coolers, valvebody, mechatronics unit, gearbox, and filters and pan, then its advised to get a record of the event happening through BMW and them accepting any issues related to the trans going forward.

In my mind without a doubt, they should just replace the trans for you free of charge. That would be the cleanest way of resolving this issue. No second guessing what might/ might not happen.

[Helmsman]

Thanks for your input SJL, this is good additional info for me to have back pockened.

Plan to meet with the dealer next Tuesday, lets see what their plan is.

Cheers

[ohm3]

Interested in knowing what happened to your transmission as I am in a similar situation
thanks

[BMRLVR]

This exact same situation happened to some members on here when the E90/92/93 M3 was first released. BMW NA replaced the effected transmissions. If you search the forums you should have no problem finding these threads. I think that sets precedence in you case and would give you grounds to have your transmission replaced.

[ohm3]

Thanks much appreciated.

[Helmsman]

Hey Ohm, I might have finished this story in another thread but the short of it is that the dealer in the end had to replace the complete box incl cooler and lines. They started with flushing but after I got recommendation directly from BMW that only a new box can garantee no issues I pushed it through. A VERY expensive exersise for the dealer but sh$t happens.

MT fluid in your too? Keep us posted.

Good luck

Edit: Ohm, there is even a BMW internal note stating that wrong fluid can cause serious damage, good to show the dealer. Ping me if tou have problems finding it.