Who tracks with stock brakes?

[AlpineWeiss92]

Hey guys, fairly new to the forum and e92s. I've been in relationships with pcars for the past couple years including an aero package c2s, a 996 Turbo, a 997.1 GT3 and a 997.2GT3 (in no particular order) anyways, I'm preparing to sell my 997 gt3 in order to get into something a bit less expensive to run with at the track, though I have yet to confirm if that is possible with the M3. Very surprised to see how much more expensive some of the common track items are for the M vs. pcar. I signed up for an event before I planned on selling my car. I still intend to do it, but the majority of the things I want to do to the car will not be done yet. For those whom track with stock calipers, what is needed? Pads, and flush? Are the factory calipers up to the task with a good set of pads? Looking for any advice on tracking these things really.. I've done quite a bit of reading from those who track seriously and have already learned a lot. Thanks for the help!

-Adam

[warp10]

Depending on what run group you are in. SS lines, Fluid, and Pads should be just fine. If you are hard on brakes then just be sure to watch them closely. The rotors are pretty robust but the pads will go quickly if heated to much. But yes upgrade the pads, lines and fluid and it should suffice for an event or so. I did this for a while before I went to a StopTech Front Kit.

[Groundpilot]

Stock brakes are ok, not great. You dont need to change lines, just good race pads and fluid. I recommend castrol SRF brake fluid. These cars are heavy, and if you are fast, you will be going through pads very quickly.
BBK will save you $$$ in a long run. Not to mention much better performance.

[pkimM3r]

Agree with above. But coming from a gt3 just get a bbk and be done with it.

[edwinm3]

OP If interested I have a set of lightly used PFC-01's front and rears that I will be posting for sale soon. I upgraded to a BBK

[LiM3y]

Without cooling the stock brakes eat through pads in advanced. I have lines, fluid, pads and a Cantrell cooling kit. The cooling kit keeps the brakes working hard for a full 20-25 minute session and slows down pad wear. it is tough to route the ducts to avoid rubbing, but it can be done.

[AlpineWeiss92]

I will eventually do a BBK, but because the event will be so soon after the arrival of car I don't think I will have time. Edwin, shoot me some info about the PFC's I've started looking for temporary pads. I guess I'll plan on starting with pads and fluid, then doing bbk and ducting after 1st event. Thank you guys.

[lutfy]

Adam,
Since you got the M3 to cut down on costs compared to your GT3. It can be had but with adjustments.

For brakes (this has been the shortcoming for me over the past 2 years), the stock ones are OK at best. If anything they the weakest link in this car.

1) When your stock rotors are toast, get Performance Friction Direct Drive 2 piece rotors. Better vanes for cooling compared to the stock ones.

2) remove the heat shield on the stock car. Helps a bit.

3) Better pads for sure. I use PF 08 Endurance pads. While I have been killing these over one weekend at Summit, this will be solved given I will be running NON crossed drilled rotors now.

4) Obtain Bimmerworld Solid Guide pins. My pad wear was so uneven, one side would be to the metal with the other wise having almost 40% of the pad left. This is due to caliper flex (single piston design).

5) Get good brake fluid. I used Motul 600 and at times would get the pedal to the floor even with fresh flush the weekend before. I have now purchased Prospeed RS683 from Bimmerworld.

I TRUST Bimmerworld and am looking forward to running the stock setup.

Since I intend to obtain the new(er) M3 next year, don't want to drop coin on this car hence run dedicated wheel/tires, camber plate to get -2 degree up front and call it a day.

Car is plenty fast. Have fun!

Cheers,

Lutfy

I spent circa $1K

[Wendall]

Originally Posted by lutfy

Adam,
Since you got the M3 to cut down on costs compared to your GT3. It can be had but with adjustments.

For brakes (this has been the shortcoming for me over the past 2 years), the stock ones are OK at best. If anything they the weakest link in this car.

1) When your stock rotors are toast, get Performance Friction Direct Drive 2 piece rotors. Better vanes for cooling compared to the stock ones.

2) remove the heat shield on the stock car. Helps a bit.

3) Better pads for sure. I use PF 08 Endurance pads. While I have been killing these over one weekend at Summit, this will be solved given I will be running NON crossed drilled rotors now.

4) Obtain Bimmerworld Solid Guide pins. My pad wear was so uneven, one side would be to the metal with the other wise having almost 40% of the pad left. This is due to caliper flex (single piston design).

5) Get good brake fluid. I used Motul 600 and at times would get the pedal to the floor even with fresh flush the weekend before. I have now purchased Prospeed RS683 from Bimmerworld.

I TRUST Bimmerworld and am looking forward to running the stock setup.

Since I intend to obtain the new(er) M3 next year, don't want to drop coin on this car hence run dedicated wheel/tires, camber plate to get -2 degree up front and call it a day.

Car is plenty fast. Have fun!

Cheers,

Lutfy

I spent circa $1K

All the advice above is spot on. I was recently at the track and one of my friends spun off the track due to brake fade with oem pads and fluids. I am 100% sure that would not have happened with race pads and fluids.

All these setups help maintain stopping power throughout your track day:

Also, Remove the front dust shields. Its free, easy and it provides better cooling!

from cheapest to expensive:
1. Pads and Fluids
2. Pads, Fluids, and SS lines.
3. Pads, Fluids, SS Lines, and PFC rotors.
4. BBK (i like stoptech)- Saves you in the long run since the rotors material wears better, pad swaps are x1000 times faster (stoptechs), and it comes with ss lines and decent hybrid pads.

[Groundpilot]

Brake heat shields are there to protect the ball joints and bushings near the rotor from excsessive heat, that will be generated at the track and also to keep the brake dust and debris from the suspension.
Removing front shields can cause a lot of heat to be radiated to above mentioned components that can cause more expensive repair in the long run. I would keep them on.

[M3 Esq]

I use stock calipers, stainless lines, ATE fluid and stoptech street pads running in intermediate with no issues. I would guess it depends on the driver but I have never experienced abnormal wear or brake fade that some on here complain of. Some might say I'm just not doing it right.

[chili cheese]

Originally Posted by AlpineWeiss92

I will eventually do a BBK, but because the event will be so soon after the arrival of car I don't think I will have time. Edwin, shoot me some info about the PFC's I've started looking for temporary pads. I guess I'll plan on starting with pads and fluid, then doing bbk and ducting after 1st event. Thank you guys.

Yeah, pads and fluid for the first event will be fine. I ran stock brakes with ATE Gold and Pagid RS19 yellows for 3 years (8-10 track days per year) and no issues.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Groundpilot

Brake heat shields are there to protect the ball joints and bushings near the rotor from excsessive heat, that will be generated at the track and also to keep the brake dust and debris from the suspension.
Removing front shields can cause a lot of heat to be radiated to above mentioned components that can cause more expensive repair in the long run. I would keep them on.

I kind of disagree with this...theoretically. There should be more cooling on the track from air movement. And, there's no heat sheild to hold heat against that ball joint when you come to a stop. And do the brakes get hotter because the heat shield holds more heat against the brake components?

Not sure if I'm right, just putting a counter argument out there. Only way to find out is to do a controlled experiment.

The one thing that I know happens when you remove the heat shields is you will need to dry the brakes if you drive through a puddle.

Originally Posted by LiM3y

Without cooling the stock brakes eat through pads in advanced. I have lines, fluid, pads and a Cantrell cooling kit. The cooling kit keeps the brakes working hard for a full 20-25 minute session and slows down pad wear. it is tough to route the ducts to avoid rubbing, but it can be done.

I can't believe I'm saying this but I agree with you

If tearing through high temp pads in a weekend or two, vaporizing the rubber dust boot, and having to manage your brakes after 15 minutes on the track to reduce the chances of brake failure qualifies as OK...then Yes, OEM brakes are adequate for the track.

I don't think they are.

[Porschefile]

You will hate the stock brakes coming from a GT3. The brakes are easily the single weakest point on a E9X M3 for track use.

[jml]

For a short session - 20min, with racing pads (DTC70 all around) + SRF, I didn't have any trouble with brakes (except to eat up piston seals). Now, engine overheating, limp mode - yes. I would say cooling is the weakest link in the E90, not brakes (by far actually). The E90 stops VERY well (near GT3RS levels), and a BKK is not going to improve peak stopping performance even with slicks - but it will make stopping repeatable for longer times, and make the brake pedal feel more consistent corner after corner.

Put this another way, with race pads and fluid, you would need to be abusing the brakes or an extremely advanced driver to be limited by the OEM calipers and rotors before the engine cooling system castrated your fun. Fact. But fancy 15" rotors and anodized racing calipers with titanium pistons sure are pretty and make the sponsors happy.

[zamboni1]

Does it really make a difference to turn your heat on full blast? I keep preparing my stock brakes because of all the hype, but now I have to worry about the engine overheating?

[LiM3y]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I can't believe I'm saying this but I agree with you

It's the first step in a 12 step program. The next thing you need to do is apologize for offending me with your skepticism.

[MasterP]

Definitely need cooling ducts and possibly ti backing plates. Managing the heat the calipers see under track duty is key.

[Wendall]

Originally Posted by zamboni1

Does it really make a difference to turn your heat on full blast? I keep preparing my stock brakes because of all the hype, but now I have to worry about the engine overheating?

Ive never had an overheating problem and im running an underdrive pulley. OEM brakes are the weakest link. Just swap pads and fluids an the OEM will last you on the track.

[zamboni1]

Originally Posted by Wendall

Ive never had an overheating problem and im running an underdrive pulley. OEM brakes are the weakest link. Just swap pads and fluids an the OEM will last you on the track.

Thanks. I think I'm going to run brake ducts too.

[track_warrior]

Jeff is quite the expert so i thought i would copy his response from another thread. Essex parts are awesome man, honestly when it comes to brakes these guys are the only ones i trust. I started tracking on the stock system and it was fine but when i learned the car i was overpowering the brakes so it was time for a BBK. I changed to titanium shims, ss lines, fluid, and track pads before switching over to the bbk. If there is one weak thing on the m3 compared to the competition it has to be the stock braking system, the stock brakes on my ex c63 were far superior but the handling was not.

www.essexparts.com

Originally Posted by jritt@essex

Short answer: Big brake kits are designed to deal with the heat generated from repeated stops at high speed. On the street you'll never come close to generating the type of heat that could be generated on a track. Your best bet is to upgrade to a quality pad and some good brake fluid (even after installing the supercharger). You almost certainly wouldn't need a big brake kit.

A good pad would be something like the Ferodo DS2500:

Front DS2500 for M3

Rear DS2500 for M3

Good brake fluid:
AP Racing DOT 5.1

These pads take a good deal of heat during spirited driving, but are still easy enough to live with for daily driver (reasonably low noise and dust).

Long Answer:

This is something I wrote on a different forum, but it applies here as well...basic brake upgrade guide.

Daily Driver

If you never plan to do anything with your car other than drive it to work every day, there’s a solid chance you’ll be perfectly happy with the OEM brakes as delivered. Just about every modern car today has decent brakes, with far superior technology and performance vs. the cars our parents drove when we were kids. OEM brakes are designed for safety above all else. Any and all other considerations are secondary:

• Shortest stopping distance possible- Every once in a while, a kid chases ball into the road, or a deer jumps from the trees at an inopportune moment. The goal is to stop the car in the shortest possible distance to avoid a collision. The basic brake components are selected to achieve that goal based on the vehicle layout (RWD, FWD, etc.), weight, power, tires, etc.

• Stability- Inclement weather, limited driver skill, and chance all create road conditions that negatively impact a vehicle’s stability. Modern brake systems are designed to maintain as much stability under as many conditions as possible. ABS, traction control, and stability control systems all allow a driver to turn while braking, and help keep the car pointed in the desired direction. These systems also contribute to the point above, getting the car stopped and safe as quickly as possible.

• Repeated stops at max load- Manufacturers know their cars will be driven in rush-hour traffic, filled to the brim with gear from a local big box store, and/or possibly towing something at the vehicle’s max recommended load rating. Under those conditions, the car needs to be able to stop repeatedly in an acceptable manner.

Achieving the above objectives are sufficient for most of the cars on the road. For a specialized sports car, such as the M3, the manufacturer obviously goes a bit above and beyond these essentials. Factors such as pedal feel, pedal travel, pad compound feel, fade resistance under heavier than normal use, etc. all come into play. The manufacturer addresses these issues to make their car a competitive performer in the market, all while attempting to manage their costs as tightly as possible.

If your primary objective with your M3 is to safely take you from one place to another, you’ll be fine with leaving your stock brakes alone.

Spirited Street Driving

Enthusiasts tend to be a little tougher on equipment than ‘non-car’ people. They accelerate, turn, and brake harder on a regular basis, and they have higher performance expectations. Aggressive driving on back roads, canyons, etc. puts more heat into the brake system than running errands ever could. While manufacturers expect a sports car to be driven harder than a minivan, exactly how much harder leaves a lot of room for interpretation. Your idea of being tough on brakes may differ vastly from the engineers’ thoughts on the subject. Below is a list of upgrades that can be considered for aggressive street driving, in order of importance:

High Performance Brake Pads-
Performance pads will be your number one upgrade for improving brake feel and performance if you plan to drive your car hard on the street. I’ve written an in-depth article on how to choose the proper pads for your needs, so please read that article to learn more about pad selection.

Slotted/Drilled Discs-
If you upgrade your pads and still feel like you’re not getting enough bite out of them, you may want to consider slotted or drilled discs.

Slotted discs provide more leading edges for a pad to bite into vs. a plain-face disc, and allow for pad material and water to evacuate the pad/disc interface. They are marginally more prone to cracking than plain face discs, but the added performance of slotted discs is worth the tradeoff to most enthusiasts (assuming the slot pattern is done correctly).

Drilled discs, regardless of whether the holes are cast in or drilled after the casting process, are more prone to cracking than plain face or slotted discs. They do provide even more leading edges for pad bite, and a slight weight reduction. They also look snazzy.

Slotted and drilled discs will wear your pads out more quickly than plain face discs. All of those leading edges assist with bite, but also increase wear rates.

Holes and slots will also make more scraping and whirring noises than plain face discs, so there are some NVH (Noise Vibration Harshness) tradeoffs as well.

Stainless Steel Brake Lines-
While most people won’t notice a tremendous difference under street driving conditions, SS lines can enhance pedal feel, offer greater protection against road debris, and offer a slightly faster reaction time for brake activation.

High Performance Brake Fluid-
It is highly unlikely that you’ll boil your brake fluid under aggressive street driving. The more likely scenario is that you’ll only need to flush your brake fluid at regular service intervals. When you do, it never hurts to go with a slightly higher spec than stock if you plan to drive your car hard off the beaten path.

AutoX

Autocross presents a unique challenge for your car's brakes. Depending on the course layout, the amount of pad heat generated may not be any greater than stop-and-go traffic driving. Many times you never get out of second gear, which means speeds are generally limited to roughly 60 mph or less. Additionally, the flowing nature of a well-designed autocross course means that you don't always scrub off a tremendous amount of speed entering each brake zone. More often than not, you're trail-braking as you approach the apex of the corner, rather than standing on the brakes in a straight line. Therefore, precise control and feedback is what you're looking for in your brakes. Here are some brake upgrades to consider if you autoX your car:

High Performance Brake Pads
As I discuss at length in my choosing pads article, you’ll want a brake pad with good cold bite, predictable torque response, good all-weather performance, and a simple bed-in procedure.

Slotted/Drilled Discs
Braking feel is extremely important in autocross, so for many drivers, slotted or drilled discs are worth the investment for the added touch they impart. Wear rates and NVH are secondary concerns when you’re fighting for every hundredth of a second. Additionally, drilled discs in particular can offer a tangible weight reduction, which can be critical in AutoX.

Stainless Steel Brake Lines-
As with discs, every little bit of added feel can mean the difference between winning or losing in a tightly contested AutoX. As such, properly made SS lines are a no-brainer upgrade with no downside.

High Performance Brake Fluid-
While fade isn’t typically an issue at AutoX, your increased maintenance and continual setup changes will mean that you’re under the car tinkering with your brakes more than you would be if you were only driving it on the street. As such, keeping some high quality brake fluid in the car as added insurance never hurts, nor does a good bleed for maintaining a firm and sensitive brake pedal.

Two-piece Brake Discs-
Unsprung weight is the devil to the avid autocrosser. You should always be looking to maximize weight reduction within the boundaries of the rules (or outside those boundaries if you’re really clever at cheating). Weight reduction in the wheels/brakes/suspension area is particularly beneficial to all aspects of acceleration, turning, and braking, which is the core of autoX. Two piece discs can in some cases offer substantial weight savings. Aftermarket two-piece discs will have aluminum hats that are lighter the stock iron pieces, and their overall construction and vane structure may offer further weight savings. Since you probably won’t be burning your discs up at a rapid rate, the initial cost of a two-piece disc may be worth the weight loss (commonly $600-$1000 per pair). Definitely check the price of replacement iron before making the commitment however. You will eventually have to change the discs since they are a wear item. Also, keep the size of the disc in mind. A larger than stock 2-piece disc may actually weigh more than the OEM units. Also, the larger the diameter of the disc, the greater the moment of inertia, which makes it more difficult to spin the disc from rest.

Caliper Upgrade-
A caliper-only upgrade could be a viable weight reduction option if the calipers are designed to work properly with the M3 master cylinder and discs.

Aftermarket aluminum, fixed-piston, opposed calipers tend to weigh less than OEM cast calipers. However, slapping the calipers from a different vehicle on the M3 can be a recipe for problems. While the parts may technically bolt onto the car, the actual performance may actually be significantly worse than stock. The main reason for this being improper brake bias. I will address this issue several more times throughout this article.

Assuming bias is correct, in addition to a solid weight reduction, fixed piston opposed calipers tend to offer substantially better feel, modulation, and a faster response than OEM sliders/floaters. If the aftermarket caliper has substantially larger pads than stock, some of the overall weight savings may be offset by greater pad weight.

Big Brake Kit/Complete Competition Brake System-
A complete brake system could be beneficial in AutoX for several reasons:

Feel-
Far stiffer, opposed piston calipers can offer dramatic changes in brake pedal feel and modulation. Some highly competitive types will find it worth the price of entry for this reason alone.

Brake Balance/Bias-
Getting the proper balance is very important for AutoX, and is closely related to the feel point above. If the piston sizes and disc diameter are not chosen carefully and properly (assuming you won’t be touching your OEM master cylinder), you will likely hurt your performance rather than help it. Increased (longer) stopping distances (the opposite of what you want), long brake pedal travel, and poor brake pedal feel are just some of the potential negatives of a poorly engineered system.

Weight-
Many complete brake kits shave weight over the stock setup. Even if the stock components and aftermarket components are the same physical dimensions, the aftermarket setup will be lighter 9 times out of 10. Aluminum calipers and aluminum disc hats are typically lighter than the OEM sliders and one-piece discs. As an added bonus, the optimized components can offer a host of benefits if you also track your autoX car. On the other hand, if you add a system with extremely large discs and a huge eight piston caliper, you may be adding unnecessary unsprung weight and rotational mass to the car, and actually hurting your performance in autoX.

HPDE (High Performance Drivers Education)/Time Trial

(Much of what is written below is borrowed from my pad article, but I believe it is important so I'm including it here.)

On a road course, you will always put more heat into your brake system than you will on the street or at an autoX. Please reread that sentence. HPDE is really the first venue I've mentioned thus far where battling heat becomes the critical element in having an effective and reliable brake system.

One of the most interesting aspects of HPDE is the wide range of speeds and driver ability across run groups. As such, it's difficult to recommend a blanket brake solution for an M3 driven at a HPDE. After countless discussions with customers on this topic over the years, I believe there a few key considerations when upgrading your brakes for an HPDE or Time Trial: Driver experience, track layout, vehicle configuration/modification, and tire choice. A careful examination of these factors in your personal situation should help guide you towards an acceptable brake solution. Keep in mind that all of these factors are related, and cannot be considered in isolation from one another.

Driver experience
If you've never driven anywhere but the street, your first couple of trips to the track will most likely not tax your brake system too heavily, right? Not exactly. You being a complete track newbie won't necessarily protect your stock brakes from near total destruction. Novice drivers may be easier on the brakes because their corner exit speeds are lower, their terminal speeds entering brake zones are therefore lower, and there's less kinetic energy being transferred into heat during a given stop. That said, novice track drivers also tend to stab wildly at the brakes, stay on the brakes too long, oscillate between on and off brake, and do all sorts of other things one would never expect! The end result can be some serious brake punishment. It's impossible to say that a novice driver will be fine on stock brake pads based on track experience alone.

Track layout
Long straights followed by tight turns mean your car is decelerating from a very high speed to a very low speed, creating a high energy stop. The distance between stops will also impact the heat retained in your brakes. If a particular track layout has a steady succession of medium straights and tight turns, your brakes don't have much time to cool between stops. That means heat will continually build. Flowing tracks with long sweepers are much easier on brakes (think Willow Springs (big track)). Look closely at the track(s) you'll be driving to determine how demanding they will be on your brakes.

Vehicle configuration/modification
All else held equal, more massive, faster cars place a greater strain on the brake system in a brake zone. An Audi Allroad will require a much larger rotor as a heat sink than a Miata. If you strip 200lbs. out of your car (easier to accelerate), have a quality coilover system (higher cornering speeds), and add 30hp (greater acceleration), you're placing less demand on your brakes in terms of mass, but you'll need to slow down from higher speeds when entering turns.

Tire choice
Tire choice is one of the single greatest factors in determining which brake setup will work for you on the track. The stickier the tire, the more brake you can use, and the more heat you will generate. More grip = more heat. If you're running the low grip tires, or if it rains at an event, you won't be able to generate as much grip, and you won't tax your brakes as much.

So where does all of that leave us when upgrading your brakes for an HPDE or Time Trial? The critical point is, every modification you make to your car and the nut behind the wheel will change the demands on your brake system, and you must adjust accordingly. Just because you used a particular brake pad before, doesn't mean it will work again after you've installed your new turbo kit and Hoosiers. Chances are that after your 25th event, you'll be taxing your brakes very differently than you did during your first event. You'll be hitting higher speeds, entering and exiting corners faster and in a different way, and your car will likely have more grip and power than it did when you started (you'll also be much poorer, but likely happier ). If you typically run Limerock (a short track without many big braking zones), but decide to make a trip to Road America (a crazy fast track with huge brake demands), you need to reconsider how your brakes will be taxed. You must constantly evaluate the overall condition of your brake system, and not be afraid to try new brake setups as both you and your car evolve.

If you want to play it safe and not risk damage to the major components of your brake system, don't EVER drive an OEM pad on a road course. It may be more convenient and seem economical to run stock pads, but it will cost you time and money in the long run. There's also not much worse than wasted track time. When you're sitting in the pits watching your buddy rip down the front straight, and your stock pads are a steaming pile of dust lying inside your wheels, you'll be wishing you spent a couple hundred bucks and took the hour on Friday night to change your pads and bleed your fluid.

Hopefully that is helpful to some folks.

[MSteve5036]

^ lol

/thread