ESS VT3 - LC built engine failure in 2,000 miles

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by VCP

The 15k 8 stone would work for the first 2 steps of honing a s65 block but the last and most important. A special stone and paste is used without doing this step poor ring sealing and or oil film.


There are, however, some generally common requirements for honing hypereutectic aluminum cylinders. First is the need for excellent geometry. Cylindricity limits of 0.0005" (0.013 mm) are typical. Limits are also placed on the percentage of fractured or displaced silicon crystals at the surface, which must be free of any torn or folded metal.

Because the silicon crystals are distributed throughout the metal in a homogeneous manner, there will always be some that are nearly machined through and will be displaced from the surface. Specifications typically call for about 80% intact particles.

There must be a minimum of sub-surface fractured material. This is largely a function of the prior boring step and the amount of material removed by honing.

Lastly, the exposed silicon particles must protrude above the base aluminum from 0.000004" to 0.00004" (0.1 to 1.0µm). The exposure height is related to the size of the silicon particles in the alloy. Smaller particle size will mean less exposure height. Average exposure height today is about 0.00002" (0.5 µm).

Honing Process.
Assuming the cylinder was bored using high quality machinery and PCD or equal inserts, the honing process will have two or three steps: honing, finish honing and exposure. From a honing standpoint, working with hypereutectic aluminum is somewhat the reverse of working with cast iron - the end result is measured as a desired roughness or peak height of the exposed silicon.

The essence of the honing process for hypereutectic aluminum is to first produce an ultra-smooth, mirror-finish surface with the initial honing steps, then finish with an exposure step that will actually increase the roughness, as measured with a Profilometer, by relieving softer aluminum from around the silicon. The desired end result is an exposed surface of rounded-edge primary silicon particles.

Tooling for the initial steps should be selected according to traditional guidelines for high-precision honing. Machine settings, such as RPM, stroking speed, stroke length, etc. should be similar to those used for ordinary precision work. Feed rates are selected to complement the part geometry and abrasive characteristics. All abrasive should be fully trued to produce 100% surface contact at the diameter corresponding to the finish-honing step. Crosshatch angle is less important than with cast iron and will typically be rather flat (5-10 degrees) due to the slow stroking speed. Instead of a crosshatch, the aluminum cylinder relies on the area between the silicon crystals to hold its oil film. Keep in mind that the goal in the initial steps is produce a very accurate bore with a fine (mirror) finish.

MAN-845 Honing Oil is the minimum requirement and it should be filtered to at least 0.0004" (10 µm), preferably 0.0002" (5 µm). No water-based coolants should be used. In our process development work, we found that high-performance EP oil caused a sludge build-up, which impeded contact with the ultra-fine honing grit used in the exposure step. This is the result of the extreme surface area and high energy found in freshly cut, ultra-fine metal chips. These conditions facilitate far more aggressive chemical activity with the oil additives than would be experienced with larger metal chips.

In most cases, the first two honing steps can be accomplished with conventional or diamond abrasives [Figure 8]. However, because of the high value of these engine blocks and the wide variety of OEM materials and manufacturing methods, it is critical for a rebuilder to know the exact recommendation for reconditioning abrasives or consult a honing abrasive supplier. Some cylinder materials may simply require metal-bonded diamond for all of the steps. Conventional abrasives with bronze guide shoes are unquestionably the most economical option for infrequent work with hypereutectic aluminum. In production or OEM work, diamond is preferable for the first two honing passes.

The first honing step may not be required if the block has been bored with a final finish of <=19 µin. Ra (0.5 µm) If necessary, as a first honing step we recommend removal of 0.001" in. (25 µm), using classic abrasives or a 29 µm diamond, to produce a finish <=19 µin. Ra (0.5 µm).

The second finish-honing step removes 0.0001" (2.5 µm), again using traditional abrasive or a 9 µm diamond to produce a finish <=3.9 µin. Ra (0.1 µm).

The final exposure step requires a new specially developed, elastomer-bond abrasive (XM27), using light honing force. For the exposure step, we recommend tooling with the greatest abrasive surface contact area. This step is based on time, typically 1-1 ½ minutes for 19 µin. (0.5 µm) exposure height. Longer cycle times are not harmful, because the process is somewhat self limiting. It is absolutely critical that honing force or pressure be kept as low as possibly, while still maintaining tool stability. Surfaces shown in the accompanying illustrations were honed with less than 5 lb/in2 pressure.

The elastomer based -stone- [Figure 9] is purpose-designed to overcome three limitations of rigid abrasive in the silicon exposure process. First, the elastomer serves as a cushion, deforming to allow individual abrasive particles to literally bounce over the silicon particles, while still being rigid enough to cut the surrounding aluminum. Second, the elastomer dampens or limits the overall force applied to the abrasive, making the process very forgiving of variations in pressure from the honing machine feed system. The honing tool diametrical expansion does not have to exactly match the rate at which the cylinder is increasing in diameter from stock removal. Third, the elastomer conforms to any taper or out of roundness in the cylinder, allowing it to remove very small (0.00002"/0.5µm per side) amounts of material, uniformly throughout the cylinder. With rigid abrasive, any out of roundness in the bore would result in abrasive cutting pressure variations as the honing tool rotated.

Critical Point - Process Verification.
Any shop planning to do work on hypereutectic cylinders must have a Profilometer® or similar instrument for contact surface texture measurement to verify results. The instrument should produce a trace, not just a readout, and must be capable of Rk, Rpk and Rvk measurements. These engine blocks can cost $4000 or more, so honing without a Profilometer to verify results would be negligent.

Prior to the exposure step, the Profilometer will should show a very smooth surface <3.9 µin. Ra (0.1 µm), which becomes rougher - according to the instrument - after exposure. This is because the instrument senses the exposed silicon crystals as surface finish features (peaks). Several traces of the stylus across the surface may be needed before the stylus hits a silicon particle to verify peak height [Figure 10]. The absence of a peak means you probably need to make another trace. The presence of a peak verifies success. If no peaks are encountered after 8-10 traces, more time on the exposure step is needed.

Hypereutectic aluminum is not yet a mainstream material, and the different alloys and OEM manufacturing methods ensure there is no "standard" to refer to yet. However, the honing techniques outlined here were developed for OEM use and can easily be practiced in rebuilding. Nevertheless, until it becomes as familiar as cast iron, rebuilders may want to proceed with caution, and consult a honing abrasive supplier as needed.

I never said we only use one set of stones, actually we have 4 different stones.
Anyone can copy and paste from the Sunnen site. I will not feed this troll anymore.
http://www.sunnen.com/NewsDetails.aspx?NewsID=11

[VCP]

Correct information is king, everything else is just So I copied this to let all read, yes. In my first post I said I have prepped many alusil motors and I thoroughly understand the process. I know the cause and effect of doing this wrong. 27 years experience. Troll out

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

I never said we only use one set of stones, actually we have 4 different stones.
Anyone can copy and paste from the Sunnen site. I will not feed this troll anymore.
http://www.sunnen.com/NewsDetails.aspx?NewsID=11

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by VCP

Correct information is king, everything else is just So I copied this to let all read, yes. In my first post I said I have prepped many alusil motors and I thoroughly understand the process. I know the cause and effect of doing this wrong. 27 years experience. Troll out

Whenever people want to make credentials an issue, I get really curious. VCP, what would you say is your top-5 professional accomplishments? What are the most difficult problems you've encountered, and the most creative solutions that you're most proud of?

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

To Be Different.... 700 W+ Supras/GTRs/TT-Lambos are a dime a dozen, it's special when someone does something unique

I dont think 700+ whp TT Lambos, GT-R's are a dime a dozen.

(a) dime a dozen
Fig. abundant,cheap and common.

[klammer]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Whenever people want to make credentials an issue, I get really curious. VCP, what would you say is your top-5 professional accomplishments? What are the most difficult problems you've encountered, and the most creative solutions that you're most proud of?

Agreed. What a dick! Love how 99% of these comments are from Internet tough guys who would probably wet themselves if you raised your voice to them

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by US///M3

I dont think 700+ whp TT Lambos, GT-R's are a dime a dozen.

(a) dime a dozen
Fig. abundant,cheap and common.

Check out 6Speed, depending on where you live it's not that hard to find some high power cars, especially since with those two cars 700 WHP can be done on stock motors (Race Gas TT-Lambo is ~900 WHP and and a GTR on straight E85 Tune & Stock Turbos).

Personally, I can immediately think of a 6 1000 WHP+ cars ~1 hr away from me -- An Alpha 10+ GTR from IveyTune (sure there's a lot more 1k Killers from Ivey), 2 1000 WHP+ ProEFI 996 Turbo Porsches from Undercover Performance (Not including their notable Supras + Turbo E46 M3s), a UGR Race 1, Tim's garage built 1300 WHP Motec 996 Turbo & Eddie Bello's Porsche 964 Turbo.


Bottom line -- 700 WHP+ builds with those platforms aren't very difficult or unique anymore. I am not ignoring their performance capability.

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

Check out 6Speed, depending on where you live it's not that hard to find some high power cars, especially since with those two cars 700 WHP can be done on stock motors (Race Gas TT-Lambo is ~900 WHP and and a GTR on straight E85 Tune & Stock Turbos).

Personally, I can immediately think of a 6 1000 WHP+ cars ~1 hr away from me -- An Alpha 10+ GTR from IveyTune (sure there's a lot more 1k Killers from Ivey), 2 1000 WHP+ ProEFI 996 Turbo Porsches from Undercover Performance (Not including their notable Supras + Turbo E46 M3s), a UGR Race 1, Tim's garage built 1300 WHP Motec 996 Turbo & Eddie Bello's Porsche 964 Turbo.


Bottom line -- 700 WHP+ builds with those platforms aren't very difficult or unique anymore. I am not ignoring their performance capability.

Having something rare like a 1,000hp Golf doesnt make TT Lambos a dime a dozen.

Yeah 700+ WHP TT Lambos are cheap and common.

That's why you see a few 700+ whp M3's in a sea of TT Lambos at events like shift sector.

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by US///M3

Having something rare like a 1,000hp Golf doesnt make TT Lambos a dime a dozen.

Yeah 700+ WHP TT Lambos are cheap and common.

That's why you see a few 700+ whp M3's in a sea of TT Lambos at events like shift sector.

For some reason, the original "to be different" wasn't enough for you

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

To Be Different.... 700 W+ Supras/GTRs/TT-Lambos are a dime a dozen, it's special when someone does something unique

u·nique
yo͞oˈnēk/
adjective
1.
being the only one of its kind; unlike anything else.

A 700+ whp Supercharged V8 is NO MORE unique than a sc'ed S85 swap in an M3, or a 700+ whp inline-6 2JZ/ TT V10 etc. HAHAHAHAHA

if TT Lambos are a dime a dozen ,what are E90 335i's?

[klammer]

I think the word everyone is looking for is called "hyperbole" which is an exaggeration usually outlandish or unrealistic, to get across a point. Think the concept is totally lost on the Internet crowd...and btw, home sapiens are even less unique than a dime a dozen. There's literally billions of us

[Soorena]

Originally Posted by filinm3

Update:

Today I've got confirmation from AJ that 2 pistons and 8 rings could be ready this Friday for an amazing price = $2,300 but no choice at all - I could not wait 12 weeks for them for normal price, if any in case of 2 pistons order...

So, as of now 2 positions are not yet finalized:

1. Head studs: could not find them anywhere and do not yet understand wether they are must have item... If possible could you please update with those guys on availability and readiness for shipment and pricing?

2. Head gasket: visited Cometic site and found there for S65 engine 93mm gasket and the choice of lots of thicknesses... Wrote them email directly, but may be you know where to get what I need?

Thank you in advance!

Sleeve the block Sergei.

Originally Posted by regular guy

It's my understanding that head studs will provide better clamping pressure and less chances of head lifting due to boost.

I read somewhere that ARP S54 L19 studs might work for S65. Do you know anything about this?

[filinm3]

Originally Posted by Soorena

Sleeve the block Sergei.


I read somewhere that ARP S54 L19 studs might work for S65. Do you know anything about this?

I would do sleeving, but with another engine which I would build in parallel...

If pistons were really ready so soon, I would be able to start the car in 4 weeks from now... If all done ok, this block would work fine with that level of psi, i.e 13-15 psi.

Sleeving and other technologies I would use with other big project, but VT3 project should be finalized to its logical end and serve my daily driving needs

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

Bottom line -- 700 WHP+ builds with those platforms aren't very difficult or unique anymore. I am not ignoring their performance capability.

Go build one out of your own money and you'll find out how unique they are to you and all of your friends.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Soorena

Sleeve the block Sergei.

I'm familiar with about six different sleeved projects. I know five of those are no longer running. And the sixth disappeared from the face of the earth, so I doubt he's still running either.

I'm just wondering if anybody's got it right yet and what's the longest term success story. I honestly have no idea, that's why I'm asking.

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Go build one out of your own money and you'll find out how unique they are to you and all of your friends.

Since when was reliable modifying Euro cars "cheap"? Look at the E9x M3, you're basically limited to low-600 WHP on a stock motor. To get there, you're looking at $12-15k supercharger, $3k exhaust, then most people either upgrade to a coilover suspension, a BBK and a nice set of wheels. My eyes are set on 997.1 Turbos, ~$25k in bolt-on upgrades can put you in the mid-800 WHP area on the stock motor with E85/Race Gas. Another $15k in forged internals & head work gets you a reliable 1k WHP.

A high HP E46 M3 could probably be done at 1/2 this cost, just requires you find a reasonable well cared for car to start with. It all depends what kind of platform you want to build off of.

[M-powerMode]

Originally Posted by US///M3

You made my point, the guy who stays with BMW after two engines he paid for is more loyal than say a guy who gets one engine fixed under warranty by BMW then runs to M-B.

I brought this up because you'd think a tuning co. Would reward a long time loyal customer by making sure his kit comes complete with all that's needed for safe op.

I said "more loyal", not "disloyal".

Please please please give it a
Rest ........

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

Since when was reliable modifying Euro cars "cheap"? Look at the E9x M3, you're basically limited to low-600 WHP on a stock motor. To get there, you're looking at $12-15k supercharger, $3k exhaust, then most people either upgrade to a coilover suspension, a BBK and a nice set of wheels. My eyes are set on 997.1 Turbos, ~$25k in bolt-on upgrades can put you in the mid-800 WHP area on the stock motor with E85/Race Gas. Another $15k in forged internals & head work gets you a reliable 1k WHP.

Wow, you changed your post while I was responding. Wouldn't it be fair to say you are judging uniqueness by what you read on the forums and not what you see in real life? That's my point. Tell me what you see in real life not what you read about on forums. IMO, the uniqueness is judged by how many others you see in real life, and not even by how many dissimilar platforms (997.1) can make similar or more power. IMO, uniqueness is judged on a per platform basis. Go build a 700whp S65 with your own money. You will see how unique it it to both you and your friends. As far as I know, the club of successful 700whp S65's is small, very small. The club may be limited to a single person. That's pretty unique if you ask me.

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by M-powerMode

Please please please give it a
Rest ........

I did a couple pages ago, mommy but thanks for bringing it up again.

[Soorena]

Originally Posted by regular guy

I'm familiar with about six different sleeved projects. I know five of those are no longer running. And the sixth disappeared from the face of the earth, so I doubt he's still running either.

I'm just wondering if anybody's got it right yet and what's the longest term success story. I honestly have no idea, that's why I'm asking.

I know two successful engines that are running fine so far... Well actually it's one cause the other one is a S85. Also VS motor's 1800hp S85 held up pretty well for one season, i don't know it's still in one piece or not though. One of VAC's sleeved 4.4s is supposed to get some beatup in near future so let's see what will come up.

[M-powerMode]

Originally Posted by US///M3

I did a couple pages ago, mommy but thanks for bringing it up again.

Thanks son , now go brush your teeth and tuck away your clothing and goto bed

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by M-powerMode

Thanks son , now go brush your teeth and tuck away your clothing and goto bed

Anything else you want me to stop discussing that we gave a rest 4 or
6 pages ago?

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Wow, you changed your post while I was responding. Wouldn't it be fair to say you are judging uniqueness by what you read on the forums and not what you see in real life? That's my point. Tell me what you see in real life not what you read about on forums. IMO, the uniqueness is judged by how many others you see in real life, and not even by how many dissimilar platforms (997.1) can make similar or more power. IMO, uniqueness is judged on a per platform basis. Go build a 700whp S65 with your own money. You will see how unique it it to both you and your friends. As far as I know, the club of successful 700whp S65's is small, very small. The club may be limited to a single person. That's pretty unique if you ask me.

It's a combination of both, which is why I said "depending on where you live". For me, it's not uncommon for me to see at least one E9x M3 that's gotten the AUTOcouture treatment every day. Luckily North NJ/NYC/Long Island (even Philly) has lots of quality car culture, so modded cars of every genre are pretty common. I don't necessarily agree with how you're using "unique" (I would consider a GT3 a lot more rare than an M3), but I do understand what you're getting at by judging platform specific (a bolt-on E9x M3, vs. stock motor s/c vs. built motor).

Case & point: if I were to built a 700 WHP+ M3, it'd be one of the 3/4 within a 2 hour drive (2 other VT3 cars in CT & the Gintani Stroker/YSI is in PA).