ESS VT3 - LC built engine failure in 2,000 miles

[filinm3]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

Sorry, I though the piston broke before you got it all apart.
If no broken parts then I wouldnt feel bad about just changing the damaged parts.

Good to hear this from you! Nothing was broken except for head gasket hole...

Will try to go this route and hope Mahle would produce 2 pistons 99'9% similar to mine... Still waiting info from AJ...

As for ARP, yes, I was talking about head studs... I do not know what to use: OEM head bolts (new set) or something different?

And also with Cometic head gasket: where to order proper one which would fit my engine and with what specs?

Thank you million times for your kind help!

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

Sorry, I though the piston broke before you got it all apart.
If no broken parts then I wouldnt feel bad about just changing the damaged parts.

Could you please comment on the need for honing? It's my understanding it's needed for good ring seal.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by filinm3

Good to hear this from you! Nothing was broken except for head gasket hole...

Will try to go this route and hope Mahle would produce 2 pistons 99'9% similar to mine... Still waiting info from AJ...

As for ARP, yes, I was talking about head studs... I do not know what to use: OEM head bolts (new set) or something different?

And also with Cometic head gasket: where to order proper one which would fit my engine and with what specs?

Thank you million times for your kind help!

I think you will use factory size (92mm) head gasket. Cometic makes this already. Have you checked with ARP about head studs? A year ago, they didn't make any. I'm not sure about today.

[meez]

I hope everything works out for you, TS.

All the money you've dumped into this venture is mind boggling.

[filinm3]

Originally Posted by regular guy

I think you will use factory size (92mm) head gasket. Cometic makes this already. Have you checked with ARP about head studs? A year ago, they didn't make any. I'm not sure about today.

Thank you!

Would check with ARP... By either way if they do not have, OEM head bolts are OK for my level of boost?

[filinm3]

Originally Posted by meez

I hope everything works out for you, TS.

All the money you've dumped into this venture is mind boggling.

Thank you!

All the money and time were dumped with hope that I will have perfectly built in ESS house 700whp daily driven m3 which will be used for 2-3 years at least...

Life story is somewhat different( but I hope that soon the car would come back!

[meez]

Originally Posted by filinm3

Thank you!

All the money and time were dumped with hope that I will have perfectly build in ESS house 700whp daily driven m3 which will be used for 2-3 years at least...

Life story is somewhat different( but I hope that soon the car would come back!

удача,
my friend.

[filinm3]

Originally Posted by meez

ура,
my friend.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Could you please comment on the need for honing? It's my understanding it's needed for good ring seal.

If it is going to be honed it needs to be done with diamond stones. It can be done, but I would only recommend the work to someone that has experience honing nikasil. It needs to be honed in both directions, forward and reverse. If not honed correctly the material in the bore will fold over like a lathe chip and reverse honing breaks the chip. If this debris is not out of the liner it will inbed into the skirt and scuff the bore, stick the ring and then break the piston.
This sounds dramatic but shops that hone this material will have no problem. Just not something the back yard joe want to tackle in the garage. If there are just a few scratches I would not worry about honing it. If the cross hatch is gone it needs to be honed.

A1 fasteners is just down the street from me. We can have Inconel studs made if you want to pony up alot of cash, although not needed.
What is Drew running for studs?? I would venture to say that is all that should be needed.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

What is Drew running for studs?? I would venture to say that is all that should be needed.

Drew is running head bolts. We made a few sets studs. I have one extra set. But I have no idea how much they cost. If interested, I will put you in contact with the shop who made them.

[filinm3]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Drew is running head bolts. We made a few sets studs. I have one extra set. But I have no idea how much they cost. If interested, I will put you in contact with the shop who made them.

Update:

Today I've got confirmation from AJ that 2 pistons and 8 rings could be ready this Friday for an amazing price = $2,300 but no choice at all - I could not wait 12 weeks for them for normal price, if any in case of 2 pistons order...

So, as of now 2 positions are not yet finalized:

1. Head studs: could not find them anywhere and do not yet understand wether they are must have item... If possible could you please update with those guys on availability and readiness for shipment and pricing?

2. Head gasket: visited Cometic site and found there for S65 engine 93mm gasket and the choice of lots of thicknesses... Wrote them email directly, but may be you know where to get what I need?

Thank you in advance!

[MrStinky]

Perhaps naive but it seems like wasted money to try to reach such a high goal on this engine. Why not either swap a v10 supergarged the regular build or keep the MP3 as a reliable 590hp car and spend all the money on a car that is easier to reach 700 . Gtr or something? Seems this is just too much for this engine to realistically handle

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by MrStinky

Perhaps naive but it seems like wasted money to try to reach such a high goal on this engine. Why not either swap a v10 supergarged the regular build or keep the MP3 as a reliable 590hp car and spend all the money on a car that is easier to reach 700 . Gtr or something? Seems this is just too much for this engine to realistically handle

To Be Different.... 700 W+ Supras/GTRs/TT-Lambos are a dime a dozen, it's special when someone does something unique

[VCP]

Nikasil? WOW! And you are the expert?

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

If it is going to be honed it needs to be done with diamond stones. It can be done, but I would only recommend the work to someone that has experience honing nikasil. It needs to be honed in both directions, forward and reverse. If not honed correctly the material in the bore will fold over like a lathe chip and reverse honing breaks the chip. If this debris is not out of the liner it will inbed into the skirt and scuff the bore, stick the ring and then break the piston.
This sounds dramatic but shops that hone this material will have no problem. Just not something the back yard joe want to tackle in the garage. If there are just a few scratches I would not worry about honing it. If the cross hatch is gone it needs to be honed.

A1 fasteners is just down the street from me. We can have Inconel studs made if you want to pony up alot of cash, although not needed.
What is Drew running for studs?? I would venture to say that is all that should be needed.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by VCP

Nikasil? WOW! And you are the expert?

Here's a rather nice article discussing both Nikasil and Alusil.

http://www.aera.org/engine-professio...AE-and-alusil/

[VCP]

I would think twice before touching a Alusil cylinder with a stone of any sort. If you dis lodge the silica beads it is game over. I have prepped many Alusil cylinders. This is a specialty job.

Originally Posted by regular guy

Here's a rather nice article discussing both Nikasil and Alusil.

http://www.aera.org/engine-professio...AE-and-alusil/

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by VCP

Nikasil? WOW! And you are the expert?

I meant to say Alusil, but thanks for correctng me the way you did. I expect no less from certain people.
By the way, just because you wont touch it with a stone doesnt mean it cant be done. We have 2 different heads with 8 diamond stones on each head. They are 15k per honing head, and can hone the s65.

[VCP]

Very good. I am glad you know what to expect. I know what to expect from a Alusil cylinder honed with stones as well. You do not cover the stones with anything prior to honing?

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

I meant to say Alusil, but thanks for correctng me the way you did. I expect no less from certain people.
By the way, just because you wont touch it with a stone doesnt mean it cant be done. We have 2 different heads with 8 diamond stones on each head. They are 15k per honing head, and can hone the s65.

[schnell325]

God Damned Canucks.

[Mit_Boost]

Boring out the S65 Alusil block (whether you're increasing displacement, making room for sleeves, or both) can be done, just requires the proper equipment.... VAC's building strokers (4.4L, 4.5L & 4.6L) for bored out blocks & sleeved.

Dinan & RD Sport obviously do it for their stroker builds as well, I do not believe they use sleeves

[VCP]

The 15k 8 stone would work for the first 2 steps of honing a s65 block but the last and most important. A special stone and paste is used without doing this step poor ring sealing and or oil film.


There are, however, some generally common requirements for honing hypereutectic aluminum cylinders. First is the need for excellent geometry. Cylindricity limits of 0.0005" (0.013 mm) are typical. Limits are also placed on the percentage of fractured or displaced silicon crystals at the surface, which must be free of any torn or folded metal.

Because the silicon crystals are distributed throughout the metal in a homogeneous manner, there will always be some that are nearly machined through and will be displaced from the surface. Specifications typically call for about 80% intact particles.

There must be a minimum of sub-surface fractured material. This is largely a function of the prior boring step and the amount of material removed by honing.

Lastly, the exposed silicon particles must protrude above the base aluminum from 0.000004" to 0.00004" (0.1 to 1.0µm). The exposure height is related to the size of the silicon particles in the alloy. Smaller particle size will mean less exposure height. Average exposure height today is about 0.00002" (0.5 µm).

Honing Process.
Assuming the cylinder was bored using high quality machinery and PCD or equal inserts, the honing process will have two or three steps: honing, finish honing and exposure. From a honing standpoint, working with hypereutectic aluminum is somewhat the reverse of working with cast iron - the end result is measured as a desired roughness or peak height of the exposed silicon.

The essence of the honing process for hypereutectic aluminum is to first produce an ultra-smooth, mirror-finish surface with the initial honing steps, then finish with an exposure step that will actually increase the roughness, as measured with a Profilometer, by relieving softer aluminum from around the silicon. The desired end result is an exposed surface of rounded-edge primary silicon particles.

Tooling for the initial steps should be selected according to traditional guidelines for high-precision honing. Machine settings, such as RPM, stroking speed, stroke length, etc. should be similar to those used for ordinary precision work. Feed rates are selected to complement the part geometry and abrasive characteristics. All abrasive should be fully trued to produce 100% surface contact at the diameter corresponding to the finish-honing step. Crosshatch angle is less important than with cast iron and will typically be rather flat (5-10 degrees) due to the slow stroking speed. Instead of a crosshatch, the aluminum cylinder relies on the area between the silicon crystals to hold its oil film. Keep in mind that the goal in the initial steps is produce a very accurate bore with a fine (mirror) finish.

MAN-845 Honing Oil is the minimum requirement and it should be filtered to at least 0.0004" (10 µm), preferably 0.0002" (5 µm). No water-based coolants should be used. In our process development work, we found that high-performance EP oil caused a sludge build-up, which impeded contact with the ultra-fine honing grit used in the exposure step. This is the result of the extreme surface area and high energy found in freshly cut, ultra-fine metal chips. These conditions facilitate far more aggressive chemical activity with the oil additives than would be experienced with larger metal chips.

In most cases, the first two honing steps can be accomplished with conventional or diamond abrasives [Figure 8]. However, because of the high value of these engine blocks and the wide variety of OEM materials and manufacturing methods, it is critical for a rebuilder to know the exact recommendation for reconditioning abrasives or consult a honing abrasive supplier. Some cylinder materials may simply require metal-bonded diamond for all of the steps. Conventional abrasives with bronze guide shoes are unquestionably the most economical option for infrequent work with hypereutectic aluminum. In production or OEM work, diamond is preferable for the first two honing passes.

The first honing step may not be required if the block has been bored with a final finish of <=19 µin. Ra (0.5 µm) If necessary, as a first honing step we recommend removal of 0.001" in. (25 µm), using classic abrasives or a 29 µm diamond, to produce a finish <=19 µin. Ra (0.5 µm).

The second finish-honing step removes 0.0001" (2.5 µm), again using traditional abrasive or a 9 µm diamond to produce a finish <=3.9 µin. Ra (0.1 µm).

The final exposure step requires a new specially developed, elastomer-bond abrasive (XM27), using light honing force. For the exposure step, we recommend tooling with the greatest abrasive surface contact area. This step is based on time, typically 1-1 ½ minutes for 19 µin. (0.5 µm) exposure height. Longer cycle times are not harmful, because the process is somewhat self limiting. It is absolutely critical that honing force or pressure be kept as low as possibly, while still maintaining tool stability. Surfaces shown in the accompanying illustrations were honed with less than 5 lb/in2 pressure.

The elastomer based -stone- [Figure 9] is purpose-designed to overcome three limitations of rigid abrasive in the silicon exposure process. First, the elastomer serves as a cushion, deforming to allow individual abrasive particles to literally bounce over the silicon particles, while still being rigid enough to cut the surrounding aluminum. Second, the elastomer dampens or limits the overall force applied to the abrasive, making the process very forgiving of variations in pressure from the honing machine feed system. The honing tool diametrical expansion does not have to exactly match the rate at which the cylinder is increasing in diameter from stock removal. Third, the elastomer conforms to any taper or out of roundness in the cylinder, allowing it to remove very small (0.00002"/0.5µm per side) amounts of material, uniformly throughout the cylinder. With rigid abrasive, any out of roundness in the bore would result in abrasive cutting pressure variations as the honing tool rotated.

Critical Point - Process Verification.
Any shop planning to do work on hypereutectic cylinders must have a Profilometer® or similar instrument for contact surface texture measurement to verify results. The instrument should produce a trace, not just a readout, and must be capable of Rk, Rpk and Rvk measurements. These engine blocks can cost $4000 or more, so honing without a Profilometer to verify results would be negligent.

Prior to the exposure step, the Profilometer will should show a very smooth surface <3.9 µin. Ra (0.1 µm), which becomes rougher - according to the instrument - after exposure. This is because the instrument senses the exposed silicon crystals as surface finish features (peaks). Several traces of the stylus across the surface may be needed before the stylus hits a silicon particle to verify peak height [Figure 10]. The absence of a peak means you probably need to make another trace. The presence of a peak verifies success. If no peaks are encountered after 8-10 traces, more time on the exposure step is needed.

Hypereutectic aluminum is not yet a mainstream material, and the different alloys and OEM manufacturing methods ensure there is no "standard" to refer to yet. However, the honing techniques outlined here were developed for OEM use and can easily be practiced in rebuilding. Nevertheless, until it becomes as familiar as cast iron, rebuilders may want to proceed with caution, and consult a honing abrasive supplier as needed.

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

I meant to say Alusil, but thanks for correctng me the way you did. I expect no less from certain people.
By the way, just because you wont touch it with a stone doesnt mean it cant be done. We have 2 different heads with 8 diamond stones on each head. They are 15k per honing head, and can hone the s65.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by filinm3

Update:

Today I've got confirmation from AJ that 2 pistons and 8 rings could be ready this Friday for an amazing price = $2,300 but no choice at all - I could not wait 12 weeks for them for normal price, if any in case of 2 pistons order...

So, as of now 2 positions are not yet finalized:

Ouch. That's the price of an entire set of pistons with an entire set of rings. But yes, there is a 4-6 week delay from Mahle to get the full set.

1. Head studs: could not find them anywhere and do not yet understand wether they are must have item... If possible could you please update with those guys on availability and readiness for shipment and pricing?

It's my understanding that head studs will provide better clamping pressure and less chances of head lifting due to boost.

PM sent.

2. Head gasket: visited Cometic site and found there for S65 engine 93mm gasket and the choice of lots of thicknesses... Wrote them email directly, but may be you know where to get what I need?

Thank you in advance!

Cometic will make any size head gasket you want. Just order the standard thickness in 92.5mm for stock size pistons.