ESS VT3 - LC built engine failure in 2,000 miles

[filinm3]

Originally Posted by MilehighM3

From reading this thread I gather that any fault is too complicated and there is too much unknown information to pin it on any one person. The thing that I am curious about would be the fuel pump setup. I presume the factory pump is utilized as a primary pump and the second pump is aftermarket and used as the second stage based on rpm and/or boost levels in lieu of the factory dual stage setup with a single pump? If so, and the OP did indeed take it easy on the car on his way home, the fpr failure/fueling issue wouldn't have shown up until he tried to do some pulls on the road. Provided the information is accurate and the issue only showed up on his initial runs, how would that issue not have shown on the ESS dyno since they did roughly 40 pulls? By that logic, any damage could've already been done or at least initiated at that time. Also by their own words the OP's setup is the same as Drew's car, so why the need for 40 pulls followed by further testing? If I'm in their shoes I don't build, dyno and/or long term test the car without the gauges they deemed necessary for daily operation. That seems unprofessional to me and a little half assed given the investment he made as a VT3 customer.

I also concur with regular guy that the OP should be replacing all 8 pistons and performing the necessary machine work to fit them properly. Added costs are involved, but they will by minor compared to another failure due to compromised pistons. Do it right and it will last a long time.

Best of luck getting it resolved.

Thank you!

As for the pistons and added cost: really I would anything which is needed and buy anything required... The main problem that I am in Russia with my car and nobody here has any experience in building S65 or repairing it with non - OEM parts... There lots cars with blown engines and all the guys just bought used engines with low mileage for $6-7k and installed them...

Therefore now after all the hidden stones mentioned here and non of them even thought of by the shop the car is in, I am seriously curious what to do with that engine in Russia and the only way out is is sending it to AJ for sleeving and building...

Any thoughts, guys?

[filinm3]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

Well said, I concur, and kudo's to you for offering help here. Hopefully all that is possible, but I'm pessimistic about it, and doubtful that we will ever see big power YSI setups as a viable production option from any of the top FI S65 vendors in the near future, like we do with Domestic cars, AMG or GTR setups.

I think Mit_Boost is a intelligent, reasonable guy and I hope he's right, but no offense brother, I think you may be a little off with your optimism here, this notion there are going to be S65 FI options with 800WHP coming soon from any of the vendors, is for the most part wishful thinking. Anyone who goes this route now will have to get used to their car being away from them for a long time, and maybe never fully realizing what they hoped for, there are plenty of horror stories that people are not aware of as well. Eventually it may happen, but it's years away from ever being a reality, in terms of reliability, etc.

Sergei, whatever route you decide to go, I'd install an AEM fail safe gauge which Kawasaki mentioned, it's a good $300 insurance policy, it can kill power if your car starts to go lean and can save your engine. I plan on installing one eventually. The car for the most part has let me know if there is a potential issue, but the AFR, and FP gauges have helped me diagnose a few things before something bad could have happened. Again, best of luck to you.

Drew, thank you!

So in pair to my Awron gauge I should install that AEM one?

Hope, my guys in Russia could do that cause even Awron gauge installation showed up enormous questions...

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by filinm3

Drew, thank you!

So in pair to my Awron gauge I should install that AEM one?

Hope, my guys in Russia could do that cause even Awron gauge installation showed up enormous questions...

Yes you could install the AEM fail safe gauge, and just use the Awron for monitoring boost, fp, afr, etc. AEM FS is straightforward and more for shutting things down, logging, than monitoring, you just need to find the tach wire and or the wire to kill the ecu, boost, etc., regardless an alarm will sound for you to get off the throttle.

I would contact EAS about installing the Awron gauge as they have a lot of experience with it.

[filinm3]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

Yes you could install the AEM fail safe gauge, and just use the Awron for monitoring boost, fp, afr, etc. AEM FS is straightforward and more for shutting things down, logging, than monitoring, you just need to find the tach wire and or the wire to kill the ecu, boost, etc., regardless an alarm will sound for you to get off the throttle.

I would contact EAS about installing the Awron gauge as they have a lot of experience with it.

I see. Thank you again so much!

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by filinm3

I see. Thank you again so much!

Not sure how you would kill boost since it's a SC not turbo, no wastegate, I don't know if they make an electric valve to release boost pressure on a SC setup, but shutting the throttle down in some way should do the trick.

[filinm3]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

Not sure how you would kill boost since it's a SC not turbo, no wastegate, I don't know if they make an electric valve to release boost pressure on a SC setup, but shutting the throttle down in some way should do the trick.

Will investigate...

Now I am really in dead point of what to do with engine...(((

[MilehighM3]

Originally Posted by filinm3

As for the pistons and added cost: really I would anything which is needed and buy anything required... The main problem that I am in Russia with my car and nobody here has any experience in building S65 or repairing it with non - OEM parts... There lots cars with blown engines and all the guys just bought used engines with low mileage for $6-7k and installed them...

Therefore now after all the hidden stones mentioned here and non of them even thought of by the shop the car is in, I am seriously curious what to do with that engine in Russia and the only way out is is sending it to AJ for sleeving and building...

Any thoughts, guys?

If I were you and the shop I had my car at didn't have the faith to install new pistons properly, or sublet to a machine that can, I would find such a shop. Even if that means sending the block to ESS, VAC or someone comparable that's similar with the job and what's needed to install them properly. This would help to minimize the investment you're making in the car yet again.

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by regular guy

BTW, the Gintani YSI car was running MS-109, not pump-93. And as long as the DCT can't hold the power, there is no final product to talk about.

Like I said, I'm concentrating on the East Coast 4.5L S65/YSI that is completing its break in. The biggest advantage of this car is that it is a 6MT, so a simple clutch upgrade and you can run it full tilt. The car that is "completed" but only ran out to 7700 RPMs is DCT, and Jst like Drew's car that sadly is a strength (faster acceleration, better gearing) & limitation until someone can reprogram & build higher TQ capacity clutch packs. Also, while the dyno'd car didn't run all the way out, it is running the same boost as the Stroker Motor on 93 octane. Ignition will obviously have to be reduced, but the power won't be that far apart.

Originally Posted by regular guy

And supercharged stroker has been done four years ago too. It was done on low boost, high compression, and V3 blower. Monster torque.

Yes, both are stroker motors & FI but that's about all they share in common -- PG's setup was a low boost (6.5psi peak) setup that ironically has been outperformed by the normal displacement VT3s.

Originally Posted by regular guy

Before I say XYZ Corp can build an 850whp PRODUCT, I want to see more than a proof of concept; I want to see final results that the companies will bring to the public to promote and talk about. Feel free to disagree...but these are all examples of proofs of concepts to me.

Can't argue... But if you're gonna throw around the word PRODUCT, we might as well discount the VT3 builds since they're not "officially" for sale.

Once the final tuning & dynos have been done (except before April), I'm sure the numbers will be publicized on the 4.5L/YSI. Let's also not forget that the 7700 RPM Gintani/YSI/DCT car did win the October '13 Shift Sector, peak trap speed was 173 MPH (Control/Find "OFFICIAL SHIFT-S3CTOR AIRSTRIP ATTACK IV 2013 RESULTS" to go straight to the results at the bottom of the page).

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

Well said, I concur, and kudo's to you for offering help here. Hopefully all that is possible, but I'm pessimistic about it, and doubtful that we will ever see big power YSI setups as a viable production option from any of the top FI S65 vendors in the near future, like we do with Domestic cars, AMG or GTR setups.

I think Mit_Boost is a intelligent, reasonable guy and I hope he's right, but no offense brother, I think you may be a little off with your optimism here, this notion there are going to be S65 FI options with 800WHP coming soon from any of the vendors, is for the most part wishful thinking. Anyone who goes this route now will have to get used to their car being away from them for a long time, and maybe never fully realizing what they hoped for, there are plenty of horror stories that people are not aware of as well. Eventually it may happen, but it's years away from ever being a reality, in terms of reliability, etc.

1st thanks for the compliment regarding my intelligence/being reasonable. I expect the S65 has a lot more to give with how high the VE on the motor is, and now that it's becoming a "last-gen" model car I'm anticipating a lot more extreme builds -- Early builds E9x M3s are going sub-$40k, so the aftermarket focused consumers are starting to get their hands on these cars (same development with the 996 Turbo Porsche & E46 M3 -- After production ended, these cars saw a significantly increase in their aftermarket attention/development/progress). Sadly, I don't think reliability is a word that will every be associated with any S65 build beyond a stock motor. You're taking a very high revving, aggressive factory motor, designed for N/A and now throwing FI into the mix. As great as the TT Lambos are (similar to the M3, very high revving & VE motors) reliability is a word not associated with them, especially when compared to their competition that came FI from the factory (Supras, GTRs, Turbo Porsches).


Viable is very different that what is possible. We can all agree that even your VT3 build is pretty rare (especially considering since it isn't officially retailed by ESS). But if people are prepared to pony up the cash, a 1000 WHP E9x M3 is completely possible. It is a bit off that you say 800 WHP is "wishful thinking" when you've already achieved 685 WHP (SAE) on the Vortech V3 blower that you've even said is basically maxed out at 14 psi.


I can't "argue" with either of you and until the dynos are made public it's all hypotheticals. BUT I do have confidence that once the East Coast Stroker/YSI is finished, it will be the most powerful E9x M3.


Adding More Fuel to the Fire: RG Motorsport (South Africa) is also working on a Stroker S65/YSI Combo (4.4L) and their aiming for 1000 HP too. I def have more confidence in the Gintani setup (just more familiar with the S65), but like I previously stated the S65 is a V8 motor, and with the right combination of parts & a quality tune, anything is plausible.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

Like I said, I'm concentrating on the East Coast 4.5L S65/YSI that is completing its break in. The biggest advantage of this car is that it is a 6MT, so a simple clutch upgrade and you can run it full tilt. The car that is "completed" but only ran out to 7700 RPMs is DCT, and Jst like Drew's car that sadly is a strength (faster acceleration, better gearing) & limitation until someone can reprogram & build higher TQ capacity clutch packs. Also, while the dyno'd car didn't run all the way out, it is running the same boost as the Stroker Motor on 93 octane. Ignition will obviously have to be reduced, but the power won't be that far apart.

If that's what you were saying, I missed it. I thought you were saying the DCT that didn't run to max RPM was running 93 octane. It wasn't because it was running on MS-109. Sorry about that.

Yes, both are stroker motors & FI but that's about all they share in common -- PG's setup was a low boost (6.5psi peak) setup that ironically has been outperformed by the normal displacement VT3s.

Nothing ironic about it...they are making more power so of course they will outperform.

Can't argue... But if you're gonna throw around the word PRODUCT, we might as well discount the VT3 builds since they're not "officially" for sale.

I was keying from your comments of recommending to the OP some of these companies because they had proven 800+ whp solutions. That's not my view since none of these have proven themselves beyond a proof of concept. Say whatever you like about the VT3, call it a proof of concept if you like. But at least it's a proof of concept with 20k miles on it that drives daily on the street.

Once the final tuning & dynos have been done (except before April), I'm sure the numbers will be publicized on the 4.5L/YSI. Let's also not forget that the 7700 RPM Gintani/YSI/DCT car did win the October '13 Shift Sector, peak trap speed was 173 MPH (Control/Find "OFFICIAL SHIFT-S3CTOR AIRSTRIP ATTACK IV 2013 RESULTS" to go straight to the results at the bottom of the page).

I think you're putting more faith in promises than I do. I've seen four years of broken promises and aborted builds from some of the same companies who you said "offer higher power S65 setups...800+ whp." If that were the case, I would expect something more than a teaser video to show for it; and more than a car that needs to be trailered to/from events. Some day somebody will finalize one of these products and provide a proven solution. But I think it will be much farther away than April 2014. Just remember, we've had four years of this stuff, and a few months after one car appears on the scene with a big splash, it quietly disappears without any comments.

Viable is very different that what is possible. We can all agree that even your VT3 build is pretty rare (especially considering since it isn't officially retailed by ESS). But if people are prepared to pony up the cash, a 1000 WHP E9x M3 is completely possible.

...

I can't "argue" with either of you and until the dynos are made public it's all hypotheticals. BUT I do have confidence that once the East Coast Stroker/YSI is finished, it will be the most powerful E9x M3.

Who's tuning it? I'll bet I'm more right than wrong when I say these levels of builds aren't going to be successful on the factory ECU. I believe a standalone will be needed to get better control of the tune, and to integrate appropriate failsafes to keep the motor from grenading itself when things like an FPR or 2nd fuel pump fails.

BTW, I think you make some really good points. I deleted some of your comments because I agree with them and didn't need to respond. My big difference is that I look at proven solutions, not promises. I also look at the past and use it as a guide for the future. Just my $0.02.

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by regular guy

I was keying from your comments of recommending to the OP some of these companies because they had proven 800+ whp solutions. That's not my view since none of these have proven themselves beyond a proof of concept. Say whatever you like about the VT3, call it a proof of concept if you like. But at least it's a proof of concept with 20k miles on it that drives daily on the street.

Nothing against BMW, but I do agree that 800 WHP proven solutions are very rare on this platform, and almost exclusively reserved for mild build Turbo E46 M3s.

While the VT3 has definitely proven to be a potent "package" and shown what a basic low compression S65 is capable (with no sleeves and the same V3 blower), it's biggest drawback is that it isn't readily available to the masses.

Originally Posted by regular guy

I think you're putting more faith in promises than I do. I've seen four years of broken promises and aborted builds from some of the same companies who you said "offer higher power S65 setups...800+ whp." If that were the case, I would expect something more than a teaser video to show for it; and more than a car that needs to be trailered to/from events. Some day somebody will finalize one of these products and provide a proven solution. But I think it will be much farther away than April 2014. Just remember, we've had four years of this stuff, and a few months after one car appears on the scene with a big splash, it quietly disappears without any comments.

Who's tuning it? I'll bet I'm more right than wrong when I say these levels of builds aren't going to be successful on the factory ECU. I believe a standalone will be needed to get better control of the tune, and to integrate appropriate failsafes to keep the motor from grenading itself when things like an FPR or 2nd fuel pump fails.

I agree that the E9x M3 has definitely had a lot of "development" drawbacks, specifically when G-Power brought their kits to the US and killed a few cars, then SavSpeed attempting to turbo a car and it never becoming a reality, etc etc. Hopefully that 7700 RPM YSI car (it's in Cali, so I'll just refer to it as the West Coast Gintani YSI) will get the DCT sorted out so we can see it can put down a full dyno pull, some 60-130 times and maybe even 1/4 mile. But Gintani has some Stage 3 Builds under their belt, including Tightie's Stage 3/Vortech T-Trim and their old shop E90 YSI -- YouTube search "Gintani M3 12.5 PSI VS M3 16.5PSI Stage 3". I don't want to post a video advertising another forum.

**Keep in mind that the E90 YSI only running 16.5 psi (which is probably the 91 octane/pump gas tune).


Personally, after all the crap Gintani gets over the forums, I think they've gotten to the point of letting their products speak for themselves (in addition to pouring most of their resources into finishing their TT-S65 kit).


As for the East Coast Stroker/YSI, it is being tuned by Gintani and Alex is supposedly coming out here to dyno/street tune it once the break in is completed and the weather is semi decent (street tuning while it's 30* is a waste of everyone's time). A standalone EMS would definitely do a lot to protect the motor, run a better fueling system, a better tune (not limited to OEM ignition/load tables), and a traction control that's more appropriate to these power levels.

I've already advocated for ProEFI, but I really like that their EMS automatically adds additional fuel pressure if the AFR target is not being met, and puts the car into a Limp Mode if the pumps go outside a "safe" threshold (I believe the threshold is determined by fuel pressure and/or AFR). Also, Saad Racing illustrated how much power can be picked up by just switching tuning platforms on a '13 GT500. By going from the OEM DME to the ProEFI, being able to run the fueling & ignition they wanted, Saad Racing was able to pick up 136 WHP & 121 WTQ (we'll say it put down 675 WHP/540 WTQ before belt slip got out of control). The only mods on the car was an X-Pipe & the ProEFI (factory blower & boost), on pump gas. You can also see from the dyno that they had LOTS of belt slip in the upper RPMs.




Recently they ran a 69% ethanol blend (ProEFI is full FlexFuel, from 0-100% ethanol concentration), tried to cut down on belt slip and put down 746 WHP.

Originally Posted by regular guy

BTW, I think you make some really good points. I deleted some of your comments because I agree with them and didn't need to respond. My big difference is that I look at proven solutions, not promises. I also look at the past and use it as a guide for the future. Just my $0.02.

Thanks and I totally hear what you're saying (Proven "Formulas" > Unproven Expectations). Bottom line, I'm hear for just some healthy discussion rooted in data/tuning. The sad but unfortunate truth is that the M3 isn't really a high power platform, so people aren't ready to dump $30k+ in built motor setups like they are with GTRs, Supras, Turbo Lambos, Turbo Porsches, Turbo Vettes, etc. This will make for a VERY interesting switch with the new F3x M3/M4 since it'll be the first time the motor is "built for boost" from BMW.

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

Like I said, I'm concentrating on the East Coast 4.5L S65/YSI that is completing its break in. The biggest advantage of this car is that it is a 6MT, so a simple clutch upgrade and you can run it full tilt. The car that is "completed" but only ran out to 7700 RPMs is DCT, and Jst like Drew's car that sadly is a strength (faster acceleration, better gearing) & limitation until someone can reprogram & build higher TQ capacity clutch packs. Also, while the dyno'd car didn't run all the way out, it is running the same boost as the Stroker Motor on 93 octane. Ignition will obviously have to be reduced, but the power won't be that far apart.

Who built the 4.5L YSI? Agreed on the 6mt advantage. Agreed on the DCT, to be honest I'm surprised mine has held up this well with 670-700whp, but it appears to be just fine.

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

Yes, both are stroker motors & FI but that's about all they share in common -- PG's setup was a low boost (6.5psi peak) setup that ironically has been outperformed by the normal displacement VT3s.

Can't argue... But if you're gonna throw around the word PRODUCT, we might as well discount the VT3 builds since they're not "officially" for sale.

Good points.

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

Once the final tuning & dynos have been done (except before April), I'm sure the numbers will be publicized on the 4.5L/YSI. Let's also not forget that the 7700 RPM Gintani/YSI/DCT car did win the October '13 Shift Sector, peak trap speed was 173 MPH (Control/Find "OFFICIAL SHIFT-S3CTOR AIRSTRIP ATTACK IV 2013 RESULTS" to go straight to the results at the bottom of the page).

This is true and excuses can get old, I have had my fair share at these events when the car had an issue and didn't perform the way I know it can, people don't want to hear that, real or not. But I think most can understand that issues will arise with these setups but of course within reason! No one is going to risk blowing their transmission on their own car to do a few runs and win a trophy at an airstrip event, not worth it IMHO, while impressive and I can understand why they did it, it's just another example of how things break with that much power on the S65, I hope they can do it, but I'm extremely skeptical that they or any other vendor themselves can modify the DCT to work with that much power, but hopefully I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

1st thanks for the compliment regarding my intelligence/being reasonable. I expect the S65 has a lot more to give with how high the VE on the motor is, and now that it's becoming a "last-gen" model car I'm anticipating a lot more extreme builds -- Early builds E9x M3s are going sub-$40k, so the aftermarket focused consumers are starting to get their hands on these cars (same development with the 996 Turbo Porsche & E46 M3 -- After production ended, these cars saw a significantly increase in their aftermarket attention/development/progress). Sadly, I don't think reliability is a word that will every be associated with any S65 build beyond a stock motor. You're taking a very high revving, aggressive factory motor, designed for N/A and now throwing FI into the mix. As great as the TT Lambos are (similar to the M3, very high revving & VE motors) reliability is a word not associated with them, especially when compared to their competition that came FI from the factory (Supras, GTRs, Turbo Porsches).

Totally agree, it's good to see someone talk about this with logic and sanity, lol.

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

Viable is very different that what is possible. We can all agree that even your VT3 build is pretty rare (especially considering since it isn't officially retailed by ESS). But if people are prepared to pony up the cash, a 1000 WHP E9x M3 is completely possible. It is a bit off that you say 800 WHP is "wishful thinking" when you've already achieved 685 WHP (SAE) on the Vortech V3 blower that you've even said is basically maxed out at 14 psi.

Fair enough, I dynoed this weekend as well and managed 690whp SAE with 13.4 psi, same fuel mix. If a full E85 tune was possible, I think the car could do 730 at this boost level, which is plenty, but not sure that an 100% E85 tune will ever become a reality. Regardless of what small things we may disagree on in terms of whether or not these FI S65 options will ever become a reality, I really welcome someone like you joining in on this topic, adding some realistic perspective, knowledge and humility to it, not sure where you've been or who you are, lol, but I'm glad you chimed in with some excellent information and solid points, appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

I can't "argue" with either of you and until the dynos are made public it's all hypotheticals. BUT I do have confidence that once the East Coast Stroker/YSI is finished, it will be the most powerful E9x M3.

I hope it works out for them, I think once PG gets his going it will be in that same discussion.

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

Adding More Fuel to the Fire: RG Motorsport (South Africa) is also working on a Stroker S65/YSI Combo (4.4L) and their aiming for 1000 HP too. I def have more confidence in the Gintani setup (just more familiar with the S65), but like I previously stated the S65 is a V8 motor, and with the right combination of parts & a quality tune, anything is plausible.

Any idea who is tuning this?

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by filinm3

And also, what do you think caused such a wear on main bearings? Maybe some problem was also with oil supply?

The pictures of your main bearings weren't close enough for me to see much in them. At this point, I would assume when your motor developed problems, the oil supply was contaminated. Was your oil filter contaminated, or the oil pick up packed with metal debris? There's also the possibility of contamination during assembly, but I would think this is less likely.

Decided to use OEM main bearings, OEM 702/703 rod bearings, Cometic head gasket, ARP studs... Right approach?

We use the Cometic head gasket and OEM bearings. Which ARP studs are you talking about? Your Carrillo rods will use Carrillo rod bolts. They are very good. Last time I checked, ARP didn't make head studs. We gave ARP the specs and they quoted us about $55 per stud for 8740 and $110 per stud for some other stronger material. So we ended up designing our own that were stronger than 8740 but not quite as strong as the other material.

So are you sure you meant ARP head studs? Or were you talking about rod bolts?

[Soorena]

AJ stated on public that they would cover the rebuild, and they should stick with their words. Have them buyback your block. Come to your senses and let this nonsense battered ESS syndrome go. If they really wanted you run their engines, this whole thing wouldn't make it to forums, no? Also both Roman and AJ responses clearly show their lack of interest in dealing with you. It's time to move on.

If i were you, i would definitely sleeve the block. This an Alusil block with minimal bore spacing and a weak bedplate design. Sleeving would get rid of those issues plus with no alusil liners you're no longer limited to Mahle for pistons. If there is no reputable shop in Russia to do that, there a few places in Europe that can help you such as Vidar Strand in Norway and PPF in Sweden. Also VAC stage 3 head with sleeved block is also another nice option, going to cost a lot though.

[filinm3]

Originally Posted by Soorena

AJ stated on public that they would cover the rebuild, and they should stick with their words. Have them buyback your block. Come to your senses and let this nonsense battered ESS syndrome go. If they really wanted you run their engines, this whole thing wouldn't make it to forums, no? Also both Roman and AJ responses clearly show their lack of interest in dealing with you. It's time to move on.

If i were you, i would definitely sleeve the block. This an Alusil block with minimal bore spacing and a weak bedplate design. Sleeving would get rid of those issues plus with no alusil liners you're no longer limited to Mahle for pistons. If there is no reputable shop in Russia to do that, there a few places in Europe that can help you such as Vidar Strand in Norway and PPF in Sweden. Also VAC stage 3 head with sleeved block is also another nice option, going to cost a lot though.

I did hear you...

But I could not insist on anybody's decision not to show his real face... Be sure, battered syndrome is already far away from me...

To stick or not to stick with their words, that is fully ESS decision. Public society could afterwards make conclusions...

What I want really is to get things sorted as soon as possible and with the most quality available... 2 weeks were already spent on investigations and discussions, but nothing was done yet with respect to repair and no final route was chosen either...

Previously I was absolutely confident in ESS work, but now who would guarantee that the work done by AJ with sleeving and assembling would be 100% OK? Nobody, because of "no warranty" and because of such an attitude to me.

If AJ did cover the cost and did the rebuild in proper manner (as he stated) and I would pay 3-4k for shippment and 3-4k for ultimate assembling here in Russia, that would be fair outcome of that story, where both sides incur their costs for their faults...

But today ALL the costs came to me personally, and their amount is totally inpredictable. This is full bullshit after the full payment for the project and 4 months of waiting the car.

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

Who built the 4.5L YSI? Agreed on the 6mt advantage. Agreed on the DCT, to be honest I'm surprised mine has held up this well with 670-700whp, but it appears to be just fine.

I believe it's all 100% Gintani -- Gintani build & running a base tune now.

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

This is true and excuses can get old, I have had my fair share at these events when the car had an issue and didn't perform the way I know it can, people don't want to hear that, real or not. But I think most can understand that issues will arise with these setups but of course within reason! No one is going to risk blowing their transmission on their own car to do a few runs and win a trophy at an airstrip event, not worth it IMHO, while impressive and I can understand why they did it, it's just another example of how things break with that much power on the S65, I hope they can do it, but I'm extremely skeptical that they or any other vendor themselves can modify the DCT to work with that much power, but hopefully I'm wrong.

It is unfortunate that the E9x M3 doesn't have the same aftermarket following as a GTR, eventually leading to DCT upgrades. But hopefully better late the never. It's also "hopeful" to think we could borrow the the DCT programming from the newer turbo M cars (obviously since their TQ is much higher).

I'm gonna assume that the West Coast YSI M3's owner felt the need to prove a point and cut the reins loose.

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

Fair enough, I dynoed this weekend as well and managed 690whp SAE with 13.4 psi, same fuel mix. If a full E85 tune was possible, I think the car could do 730 at this boost level, which is plenty, but not sure that an 100% E85 tune will ever become a reality. Regardless of what small things we may disagree on in terms of whether or not these FI S65 options will ever become a reality, I really welcome someone like you joining in on this topic, adding some realistic perspective, knowledge and humility to it, not sure where you've been or who you are, lol, but I'm glad you chimed in with some excellent information and solid points, appreciate it.

Straight E85 (or C16/VP Import) would def yield some worthwhile gains in the ignition curve you'd be able to run, my biggest concern (natural S65 problem) would just be IAT suppression on running a real aggressive tune. Obviously E85 gives you that "cooling" benefit as it burns, but who knows until it's done.

Thanks -- Obviously looking forward as you continue to run your setup at these airfield events and everything. Especially for you, I really do hope that DCT upgrade comes to fruition.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

It is unfortunate that the E9x M3 doesn't have the same aftermarket following as a GTR, eventually leading to DCT upgrades. But hopefully better late the never. It's also "hopeful" to think we could borrow the the DCT programming from the newer turbo M cars (obviously since their TQ is much higher).

Too bad the SSP build didn't pan out. Even though I really wanted it to succeed, I'm not terribly surprised how it turned out and we can leave it at that.

I'm gonna assume that the West Coast YSI M3's owner felt the need to prove a point and cut the reins loose.

I know of eight YSI builds in the last 2.5 years. Besides the airstrip car, where are they all and what happened to them?

I just want to see one of them succeed beyond a proof of concept. For the benefit of the market, I'm rooting for that success. But until that happens, I wouldn't say anybody has a proven solution that I would recommend -- let alone one that can deliver 800 whp longer than a dyno run or airstrip event.

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Too bad the SSP build didn't pan out. Even though I really wanted it to succeed, I'm not terribly surprised how it turned out and we can leave it at that.

"Allegedly" Dodson will be releasing something

Originally Posted by regular guy

I know of eight YSI builds in the last 2.5 years. Besides the airstrip car, where are they all and what happened to them?

I just want to see one of them succeed beyond a proof of concept. For the benefit of the market, I'm rooting for that success. But until that happens, I wouldn't say anybody has a proven solution that I would recommend -- let alone one that can deliver 800 whp longer than a dyno run or airstrip event.

Couldn't tell you about the much about the YSI builds since most of the shops/airfield events are on the West Coast. I only came to know of this Gintani Stroker/YSI car since it's local and looking to compete in the SlipStream DOR @ Pocono in April

And I agree. It would really speak volumes to Gintani's setup and the reliability of a real high power S65 build if a member was regularly on the forums, sharing data and performance results. It really does seem that if you want to go high power (specifically because of the TQ), the 6MT is the way to go.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Here's my concerns.

Weight. You want the pistons all to be within the same range of weight. They shouldn't be more than a few grams apart of each other. If you order a set together, this is practically guaranteed. If you order two bare pistons, I'm not sure how much they would differ than the originals. They may not differ at all.

Size. You will get a better chance of the pistons all matching each other's size if you order them together.

Using old pistons. Your old pistons may already be compromised. There could already be micro cracks or other damage in them that you cannot see. Your #4 piston came apart at the bottom, and it's possible the pieces hit the crankshaft on the upstroke and hit and damaged other pistons in ways you can't yet detect. The latter seems unlikely that you wouldn't notice the damage, but it's a risk I wouldn't want to take.

New pistons in old bores are bad enough, but old pistons in old bores from a different block are probably worse. I realize I may be in the minority here, but I've never liked the use of new pistons in an old hole without honing the block. I'm not sure if your block was honed or not, so I'm not casting judgement or making any assumptions. But using old pistons in an old hole is probably even worse. At the very least if you go this approach, you will need new rings for all the pistons, and I strongly recommend honing the block.

I'm just an armchair expert, I don't build engines. I would seek the council of actual engine builders on these topics to see what they say. I have a hunch that hard core engine builders will probably tell you something similar.

I mentioned earlier about the new set of pistons and the above statements are true and another reason I would replace the set. Using pistons over is not a terrible deal if you have to if the engine is just used. Being that it had a major failure I would not use any of the pistons again. Furthermore if the piston broke and the rod was flying around I would replace the rods too. To me this is the price that has to be paid to make sure everything is correct.
You could have the pistons Zyglowed to check for cracks but I wouldnt even waste my time with it.

[filinm3]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

I mentioned earlier about the new set of pistons and the above statements are true and another reason I would replace the set. Using pistons over is not a terrible deal if you have to if the engine is just used. Being that it had a major failure I would not use any of the pistons again. Furthermore if the piston broke and the rod was flying around I would replace the rods too. To me this is the price that has to be paid to make sure everything is correct.
You could have the pistons Zyglowed to check for cracks but I wouldnt even waste my time with it.

Totally agree with you in theory... But in my case there was no engine failure with broken pistons or rods flying... The car was working and i came to the shop in it by slow driving... The compression was so low due to the hole appeared in head gasket... Piston in 4th cylinder just started showing problem in its bottom and piston from 3rd cylinder was also not 100% good, therefore the decision was to change them 2.

I bought low-mileage block which was fully inspected and treated as absolutely good.

Why it is still wrong way to buy 2 pistons, 8 new rings, new oem main and rod bearings, inspect oil pump and install all this along with my carillo rods and bolts to that new block? Why that block should be honed if it is ok?

[8k3]

Did you inspect the cylinder walls for damage?

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by filinm3

Totally agree with you in theory... But in my case there was no engine failure with broken pistons or rods flying... The car was working and i came to the shop in it by slow driving... The compression was so low due to the hole appeared in head gasket... Piston in 4th cylinder just started showing problem in its bottom and piston from 3rd cylinder was also not 100% good, therefore the decision was to change them 2.

I bought low-mileage block which was fully inspected and treated as absolutely good.

Why it is still wrong way to buy 2 pistons, 8 new rings, new oem main and rod bearings, inspect oil pump and install all this along with my carillo rods and bolts to that new block? Why that block should be honed if it is ok?

Sorry, I though the piston broke before you got it all apart.
If no broken parts then I wouldnt feel bad about just changing the damaged parts.

[filinm3]

Originally Posted by 8k3

Did you inspect the cylinder walls for damage?

I bought another fine block)))

Mine is with scratches...