ESS VT3 - LC built engine failure in 2,000 miles

[Krockit1]

Seriously, anybody out there contemplating ESS mods and having doubts because of this thread, feel free to PM me. I am a very satisfied ESS customer with a story to tell that will set you mind at ease.

[klammer]

Originally Posted by stevens

Yes Gauges, those things we use to tell us whats going on in the car, Speed, Revs etc.

im suprised you dont think this is relevant to this discussion, granted there are other things as well but this is still relevant.

Likewise aside from "Gauges", if I had had 2 VT cars that blew for whatever reason (high boost according to AJ), and went back for another "built" engine and "again" had increased the boost (which is the point of a built engine, or at least to get safely passed the 8psi range) then id be learning from my previous mistakes and not making them again.

Well unless I had the ops money it would seem, which I dont, thus id prefer to do everything I could to make the car as enjoyable as it could be and as safe as it could be.

Now im not completly siding with ESS on this one, its clear they have some responsiblilty on this purely by being involved with building the VT3 setup and potentially not doing everything in their power to pass enough, and the correct info on, but from my opening post the OP didnt tell the truth so he also has some as well.

The funny thing is I actually have gauges and I'm NA just think this gauges talk is beating a dead horse at this point and should be looking at what may or may not be going on with the engine (I know we don't have data from any gauges though : ) and what were the circumstance for the failures...the lack of gauges did not CAUSE anything so why are we still discussing it? Would it have been better? Maybe? But after hearing the OP's story what makes anyone think he would have listened to aftermarket gauges when the car was giving plenty of indicators that were ignored anyway? Never thought a discussion about a blown built engine would settle on gauges...seems a bit misplaced IMHO

[M-powerMode]

Just caught up on the thread , people are flcking idiots man , what part of custom race only pushing the limits motor build ( anything can happen ) don't you understand ??!!

Shit let it go already , the main focal point of all this is clear " custom no warranty motor build takes place , misuse causes motor to blow , guy bad mouths publicly meanwhile sends email over the weekend only to bash first thing on Monday and in the end gets warrantied and all you can bicker about is a freaking gauge which would have been wise of him to install before even getting on the car and hitting excess speeds of 180mph in the first place .....
Sheesh

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

If you have a spare motor available correct

One of your loyal customer ends up with three blown ESS SC'ed S65's, you think it's appropriate to try to be cute with your comments.

Are there more blown ESS SC'ed engines out there that we dont know about regardless of who's at fault? Hahaha

[burgerearmuffs]

Originally Posted by M-powerMode

Just caught up on the thread , people are flcking idiots man , what part of custom race only pushing the limits motor build ( anything can happen ) don't you understand ??!!

Shit let it go already , the main focal point of all this is clear " custom no warranty motor build takes place , misuse causes motor to blow , guy bad mouths publicly meanwhile sends email over the weekend only to bash first thing on Monday and in the end gets warrantied and all you can bicker about is a freaking gauge which would have been wise of him to install before even getting on the car and hitting excess speeds of 180mph in the first place .....
Sheesh

[IMG]

Originally Posted by Dashman

Exactly, he never even backed off when the car was sputtering at wide open throttle. That's clearly a more telling indicator than a gauge.

He prolly thought it was still adapting ! Haha

[Grapesape]

Very entertaining, but seems about time to retire this thread. Both sides have shared their side of the story. All the facts are out, people will believe what they want. One thing for sure, it's a full time job for companies like ESS to monitor these forums to defend their reputation.

[euro*]

I think this is totally OP's fault, especially rushing things before they are 100% figured out!!

My respect goes out to ESS, and how they are still willing to deal with a non-warrantied problem , which is totally caused by a stubborn and sorry to say, stupid customer!!

[sales@ESSTuning]

Originally Posted by US///M3

One of your loyal customer ends up with three blown ESS SC'ed S65's, you think it's appropriate to try to be cute with your comments.

Are there more blown ESS SC'ed engines out there that we dont know about regardless of who's at fault? Hahaha

Nothing cute about it, what I posted was 100% the truth. If you want to add boost to our superchargers, re-tune them or modify them in anyway because you think you know more about how they work than we do you better have a spare motor as a backup. We have no sympathy for customers who modify our products to make more power, ignore our instructions or use our kits in a manner they were not intended.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by Dashman

My final thoughts, with a nod to biglare

Attachment 961030

[filinm3]

Originally Posted by AJ@ESS

I honestly think you have not been very clever about this process. If you send us an email on Saturday, I would at least wait until Monday for a reply before publically bashing us for something that is not our fault and claiming we ignore you. It would most likely make the process of getting us to assist you easier I would think..

If you send us your block with crank/rods/pistons as is I will have it sleeved and fitted with new pistons and return it back to you at our cost. Then you will have to verify function of both fuel pumps and verify correct fuel pressure operation. This time do NOT drive the car hard without a working AFR gauge, and if it goes over 12.5:1 at WOT get off the throttle at once!

And to remind you again, there are no warranties whatsoever on the VT3. Everything related to this system is entirely your own risk!

Send the block to :

ESS Tuning
6150 W Gila Springs Pl #4-6
Chandler, AZ 85224
USA

1. To Asbjorn:

I really could not expect that my post with 100% true factual story would treated by you as "malicious manner" towards ESS...((( I was really alone those days waiting for Hans coming back from you after our discussions in December when all problems were discovered except for detailed fotos etc which I sent you only 3 days ago...

I re-read my post again and again and could not find anything which could cast a lying shadow on ESS. At the same time I am very defensive guy and once somebody is kidding on me or directly lying on the things he was not aware of at all, the level of aggressiveness from my side could go far and beyond all the boundaries

Moreover, I was so surprised in November when I firstly discovered some strange behavior of the car and called you, that there is NO WARRANTY on this car which I specifically sent out for 2500 miles to be fully built by YOUR HANDS ONLY...

As for the load on the car, I would again remind that the car was still in breaking in period and there were NO load at all except for ONE and ONLY pull from 0 to 180 mph, but with NO load at all cause I was switching gears at 3000 rpms and spent 3 miles to reach that speed... From that pull I discovered that the car was able to go fast if not pushing hard on the pedal, but was jerking once pushing it more than 1/4... That's it!!! No other pulls!

And Awron gauges were ordered once I was back home from the trip from Norway and I have been waiting for them a month almost from US along with new coils from Germany and new FPR from you... No pulls were that period, just 2-3 days a week cruising at very low RPMs...

When all that came the engine was already not good at all...(((

The best way in that story was to sent the car back in November than first signs appear, but you told me to change the sparks, coils and FPR first and if the problem was still in, to send it to you for further investigation... But as it was discovered, that was tooo late...

And also you should understand that sending the car from Moscow to Oslo is not simple and is taking time to agree with any special guy and also costs at least 4k dollars just to get the car to you and the same amount back... Plus you told me about no warranty, thus the total amount of new cash to be paid for that car just ruined my brain... Plus Hans told me that does not want to see my car back...

I am your most grateful customer being with you only for almost 5.5 years and constructing not only personal relations but also ESS business in Russia during those years!!! Big THANK YOU for ALL you did for me and BIG SORRY if I somehow made ESS looking imperfect!!! I even ignore that personal bullshit you sent me out in emails cause I know you are good guy and I trust you totally irrespective of anything...

As for you support with block and pistons, THANK YOU again!!!

My only ask would be to sent the fully built by you sleeved block and pistons etc. first to me and afterwards I would send you mine, cause it is extreme nightmare to send my block to Arizona from Moscow... If by air, it would take 2-3 weeks from now and will cost me at least $3k... There is a less expensive way by train and sea, which would take 7-8 weeks and would cost me approx $1.2-1.3k...plus I would pay $1k for the shippment from NY to Moscow...

If possible please go this way cause time is again ticking and the spring is so near...

THANK YOU!!!

2. To other guys:

Judgement on who is stupid or not, is not at your hands at all. You know nothing about my car, so just shut up your mouths

Once you spent 100,000 miles with SC E9x, come and talk. My first engine lasted for 70,000 miles with enormous daily load, competitions and hundreds of launch controls!!! It was amazing and the level of my confidence in ESS product and its reliability was high sky... The engine was broken by broken piston, which in its turn was partially damaged by SC impeller being broken by a stone coming from the filter... That's it!

Second engine, as Hans told me, was broken due to rod bearing issue. That's it!

For all that 5 years my car was working so perfectly prior to VT3, that no gauges were required, as I thought...And it was very difficult to install anything in Russia with current level of expertise. The only thing I have been consistently doing those years is Extreme service, ie oil change every 3000 miles, sparks changing every 10000 miles, cleaning of injectors every 10000 miles and overlooking the car every weeks at bmw dealer... And that works!!!

3. To Roman and "overboosting" issue:

When I took my car from Norway in 2009, 105mm SC pulley was installed along with stock crank pulley.. I was told by Asbjorn about 5 psi at that case.

92mm SC pulley and stock 129 crank pulley are making 8 psi, ie like 98mm pulley and 133mm crank pulley used for normal VT650... That was dozens of time confirmed by Asbjorn in emails to me... Where I was overboosting??? Nowhere!

94mm SC pulley and 133mm crank pulley would go to 9psi. That setup Asbjorn sent me out in May and specifically told me about 9 psi, not 11-12. I also have email confirmations. And yes, he told me that the engine could be killed shortly by 9 psi and that I should you race fuel only. No problem, I did use this for one day only and on 104 RON. But the engine is gone is 3 weeks... Shit, but no problems - I was acting in line with ESS recommendations and it was my choice!

The car performed very fast at that setup but it was not even near to what VT3 is doing at 13 psi, and I did clearly feel the difference between 13 psi at LC engine and 9 psi at stock engine, but not 12 psi at stock engine which would be as fast as VT3 eventually... It is a school math, guys!

THANK YOU ALL FOR ATTENTATION!

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by BLUDVL

He prolly thought it was still adapting ! Haha

That's probably the funniest comment of the thread...a reference to the "tuners" who tell their customers that the engine makes more power after the ECU fully adapts. I can tell you after 650 dyno's in the dyno database, I have yet to see one that has made more power a week after the ECU was tuned. There have been plenty of heated arguments, and five or six guys who swore they made more power after their ECU's adapted. They promised to go to the dyno and prove everybody wrong; two guys even posted saying they were on their way to the dyno "now" to prove it. Then you never hear from any of them again in their threads and they never answer any questions on how much power they made on the re-do. How telling...shocker of the century...entropy still works!

[esquire]

A lot of people are assuming the problem here was that there was too much boost. But until more test are done on a higher boost setup, we'll never know. OP's next project should be a VT4 kit with 20 pounds of boost and a 2mm pulley, designed specifically for low octane fuel.






All jokes aside, some valid points were made on both sides. It was big of ESS to offer to remedy the problem, and also big of the OP to apologize.

[IMG]

Originally Posted by regular guy

That's probably the funniest comment of the thread...a reference to the "tuners" who tell their customers that the engine makes more power after the ECU fully adapts. I can tell you after 650 dyno's in the dyno database, I have yet to see one that has made more power a week after the ECU was tuned. There have been plenty of heated arguments, and five or six guys who swore they made more power after their ECU's adapted. They promised to go to the dyno and prove everybody wrong; two guys even posted saying they were on their way to the dyno "now" to prove it. Then you never hear from any of them again in their threads and they never answer any questions on how much power they made on the re-do. How telling...shocker of the century...entropy still works!

I hear and read it a lot too and I just take a deep breath and don't comment, haha

[whats77inaname]

Originally Posted by filinm3

I am your most grateful customer being with you only for almost 5.5 years and constructing not only personal relations but also ESS business in Russia during those years!!! Big THANK YOU for ALL you did for me and BIG SORRY if I somehow made ESS looking imperfect!!! I even ignore that personal bullshit you sent me out in emails cause I know you are good guy and I trust you totally irrespective of anything...

That says it all right there. Speaks volumes about the company. Not saying that ESS is infallible or above reproach, but it does seemingly speak to the overall character of the company and the people that work there.

[okusa]

Originally Posted by whats77inaname

That says it all right there. Speaks volumes about the company. Not saying that ESS is infallible or above reproach, but it does seemingly speak to the overall character of the company and the people that work there.

I'm a sucker for a happy ending...

[BIGW0RM]

I want a SC now.

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

Nothing cute about it, what I posted was 100% the truth. If you want to add boost to our superchargers, re-tune them or modify them in anyway because you think you know more about how they work than we do you better have a spare motor as a backup. We have no sympathy for customers who modify our products to make more power, ignore our instructions or use our kits in a manner they were not intended.

Sorry, but going by the thread's title, I was under the impression the op had the same VT3 setup as Drew.

I guess when they win races, it's good publicity and makes you proud.

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by AJ@ESS

Again, just to make this 100% clear: There is a very good reason we set the maximum boost pressure the way we do in the various kit stages. We do not leave massive amounts of safe power on the table as some people seem to think. If you increase boost over our standard settings, there will be a much greater risk of failure as Sergei has demonstrated. The fact that the bolt-on 625 kit ran for 67.000 miles with a massively overboosting 92mm pulley is actually much longer than expected.

When Sergei was getting ready for the Moscow unlimited 1 mile race on his second engine he asked me what I thought of running the 650 crank/92mm SC combo, and I specifically told him that he may get through the race but that the engine will with very high probability be damaged in a short period of time. The stock S65 simply can not take 11-12 PSI. He made his race, and the car ran for another week or two before caving in -as expected. The cost of a new engine is the price he chose to pay to run 4PSI overboost at his event.

When it comes to the VT3, it is critical that fuel delivery is monitored at all times. If any part of the new stand-alone, high capacity fuel system fails the engine will be damaged in a matter of seconds at high load. In Sergei's case with a brand new VT3 prototype setup being installed, I told him that I strongly recommend leaving the car with us for 6-8 weeks after assembly to properly test it in various conditions. He did not have time for this and forced us to deliver the car 1 day after assembly with only a few dyno pulls and a short road test in 35F, wet roads conditions on it's back. He then chose to ignore my specific instructions on not operating the car hard without O2 monitoring equipment installed. I specifically recommended the EAS gauge setup. He chose to ignore all warnings, and he denied to send us the car back when he experienced high load acceleration hesitations and a primary O2 sensor on bank 2 error code. Instead he kept driving the car without any monitoring equipment until the engine eventually had massive failure due to fuel starvation combined with high load operation.

We received the email of the engine condition yesterday from Sergei, and my initial plan was to simply have the car sent back to us in Norway as previously instructed and sleeve the block/install new pistons and go through the entire fuel system/O2 sensor system again to find the error that most likely has developed during his 2000 miles of use as the car operated and dynoed correctly before we delivered it. This is a relatively quick and easy fix that does not cost very much, however we do not and we never will give any kind of warranty on high-boost custom setups as the chance of failure is very high unless the driver is attentive and has proper measurement gauges installed. The VT3 is a race setup, and it should only be used by people who are aware of it's risks and high chance of long term problems due to the massive power delivery and the complex nature of the system. Sergei was informed over and over again of these risks, both on overboosting his previous VT2 kits as well as on the prototype VT3 setup.

Sergei's VT3 engine build, boost and software is identical to Drew's setup. The only difference that keeps Drew's still running strong is the awareness of the driver when operating such a complex and delicate beast. If an O2 sensor goes bad, back off it! If one of the fuel pumps stops working correctly, back off it! Follow these simple rules and the VT3 will live for a long time as Drew has demonstrated.

.

[whats77inaname]

Originally Posted by ILSMKU

I want a SC now.

Join the club *lol*

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by US///M3

Sorry, but going by the thread's title, I was under the impression the op had the same VT3 setup as Drew.

I guess when they win races, it's good publicity and makes you proud.

ESS made the trip from AZ to Shift Sector and was present throughout the entire event logging/monitoring Drew's M3, as well as others.

Support like this is why they win races.

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

ESS made the trip from AZ to Shift Sector and was present throughout the entire event logging/monitoring Drew's M3, as well as others.

Support like this is why they win races.

Makes sense since they're racing their "prototypes", not the retail products.
Going by what AJ said that it was the same VT3 setup as Drew's but minus the gauges.

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

AFR gauges are not a product we build or retail for our production supercharger kits as they are not necessary, they are an optional add on. There are plenty of gauge options for customers to install if they choose. This customer was not running a retail product. If this was a retail product sold as a package to the public that we supported and we required the customer to monitor vehicle data at all times then we would offer it. In this case it was up to the customer to properly outfit and monitor his vehicle if he intended to drive it 180+ mph with a highly complex, powerful, custom one off high boost setup that has a custom fuel delivery system. This includes more than just an AFR gauge. The customer was instructed he needed to purchase and install the gauge before operating it under heavy load. He made the decision to order the gauge but felt it was fine to drive it hard before it arrived despite our warning and the vehicle giving him continued signs of a potential hardware issue.