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09-24-2013, 04:21 PM | #46 | |
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09-24-2013, 04:25 PM | #47 |
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I'd like to see some results/testing using 0w-40 or something thinner than the Castrol TWS, as an alternative to alleviate bearing wear, especially at cold start. It seems the starvation occurs regardless of the sheer strength of the oil, or maybe I've read the clevite data incorrectly.
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09-24-2013, 09:02 PM | #48 | ||
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09-24-2013, 09:40 PM | #49 |
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Proposed Solutions: Oil Discussion
Proposed Solutions: Thinner Oil
I'll be first to tell you that I'm not an oil expert, but I'm very impressed with the information that kawasaki00 and BMRLVR have contributed to this discussion. I'll try to collect some of their best posts and weave it into a cohesive discussion. I am looking at the Rotella T6 for my car on the next oil change. The T6 must be a stout oil since it has the JASO MA rating on the back...... Not many passenger car/ diesel engine oils meet motorcycle certifications which is a testament to the base stock it is blended from. Motorcycles throw a whole different curve at oils since they have to deal with lubricating a transmission and a wet clutch as well as an engine that can spin upwards of 15000RPM......... But judging by your username I don't need to tell you anything about motorcycles! -- BMRLVR You are correct on the rotella in the motorcycles, along with my full-time job I also raced a zx-10r for a couple years. There have been some complaints over the last year or so about the t6 though, some of the high power bikes are having a touch of clutch chatter. The zinc and phosphorous levels have dropped from 1600 to about 13-1400 in the new t6. For engine bearings, flat tappet cams and the like that number is still plenty high. The tws oil is about 16-1700 on zinc numbers. BUT although it is higher that doesn't mean it is superior. Mobil 1 racing 4t is being sold as a motorcycle oil but it is really a normal engine oil with about 1500ppm of zinc and phosphorous. The problem is that it is a 10-30 so not really picking up much as far as our clearance problem. -- kawasaki00 Ok, then someone edumacate me. 10w-60 means SAE viscosity of "10" when cold, right? and "60" when at temp, right? soooo, what am I doing wrong here? -- Transfer http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/ According to the lubrication system schematic for the S65 on BMW TIS it appears as though the engine uses a pressure compensated variable displacement main oil pump. (There is a signal passage off of the main oil gallery in the schematic which is shown as a dotted line...... In my industry, heavy equipment, dotted lines almost always symbolize signal oil in hydraulic schematics). The fact that the pump is variable flow (variable displacement) it would lead me to believe that pump volume should not be an issue in the S65. Variable displacement pumps are used to ensure that max pump volume is available regardless of engine speed. To me this is great news for any of us looking to run additional clearance or lighter oil. This also helps to explain why VCM power claims that the pressure stays constant from 2000RPM on up to redline........ with a pressure compensated pump pressure can remain nearly constant and the system will never have to go over relief except in the event of a system malfunction. -- BMRLVR The 0w50 is a fantastic oil. The reason I dont bring it up is you need to be catless and be prepared to replace o2 sensors much quicker than normal. Although for most if the car has a supercharger on it they are not worried about a couple hundred bucks for sensors. The German castrol 0w30 is almost a 40 wt. however it is not a sn oil. The new belgium castrol 0w40 is really good and is a sn. The mobil 1 0w40 is the best of the bunch really. It is the heaviest of the 40 wt oils I have tested. I checked the 5w50 castrol has and it is higher in zinc but it will shear quickly to a 40 wt. From what I have gathered from some other tests is that the mobil is better hot and thicker with higher viscosity index but is still thinner cold. Really better all around. Only question is do we have enough oil pressure to run the 0-40. But, I know a couple guys already running it so I am going to put a gauge in the car. I have asked on a couple occasions for a pressure graph to be posted but no one wants to do it. So I am working on it. kawasaki00, One would more than likely see a pressure drop if that happens. Most gauges really dont react fast enough to see these drops in pressure. A logging system with a 100hz record rate might pick it up. Thank you for all of your contributions. Any opinions on Red Line Synthetic Oil and which would you recommend based upon "their" techincal properties? I've listed their 10W60 as well:BMRLVR, Kawasaki00, and others, I'm sure I missed many important posts of yours. If there's some more relevant posts, then please send me links and I'll add them to the discussion (or feel free to add them yourselves). Thanks to all the oil experts. |
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09-24-2013, 10:12 PM | #50 |
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For those of us less gifted with this type of mechanical knowledge but smart enough to understand the issue, I have a naive question. Would using an oil additive from a reputable oil company such as the Liqui Moly Ceratec be of any help here? According to Liqui Moly, Ceratec is a "Micro ceramic solid lubricant suspension based on hexagonal boron nitride (BN) in mineral oil. The laminar graphite-similar structure reduces friction and wear and prevents direct metal-to-metal contact. The < 0.5 µm particle size guarantees optimal filter flow properties and protects against depositing of solid lubricant particles."
If this additive works as advertised, wouldn't that help with this wear issue provided that the 0.5 µm particle is small enough to be suspended within the small clearances? I don't believe in snake oils but I tend to trust that reputable companies may have done enough testing to stand behind their claims. |
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09-24-2013, 10:19 PM | #51 |
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Awesome thread!
Do you plan on addressing the various changes in bearing part numbers as well as crank shaft part numbers over the course of S65 production? I am curious if the changes in part number were an attempt by BMW to alleviate this issue?
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09-24-2013, 10:55 PM | #52 | ||
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Thanks for reminding me. This entire thread may take weeks to develop. There's a lot more work to do. It seems the photo database is taking me a lot longer than I wanted, and I'm finding previous posting errors that I'm fixing along the way. Last edited by regular guy; 09-24-2013 at 11:01 PM.. |
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09-24-2013, 11:40 PM | #53 |
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S65, 4000 Miles, Bone Stock, 2011. More Photos
Category: 03-Mild Description: When this engine opened to build stroker, main bearing failure was imminent. S65, 24000 Miles, Built Internals, 2008. More Photos Category: 04-Moderate Description: Supercharged Stroker motor with built internals. S65, 40000 Miles, Bone Stock, 2008. More Photos Category: 09-Catastrophic Description: This engine suffered complete engine failure. No holes in the block, but all internals caked in metal shavings. |
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09-25-2013, 12:54 AM | #54 |
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Is there any truth that a higher viscosity oil will "cling" more to the bearings and help with cold start in that regard?
And any comments about how a 10w40 would compare to a 0w40/5w30 at high temps/track use. |
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09-25-2013, 07:06 AM | #55 | ||
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Most oil companies are no longer putting alot of effort into the 10-40 development just for the reason they have figured out how to make a 0 or 5-40 actually be better that the 10-40. Under hot temps a 0-40 will have the same protection that the 10-40 has. Now back in the day the 10-40 would have been a much better oil because the closer the two numbers the more stable and shear resistant the oil was. Times have changed though and they have figured out how to make oil thin cold while still retaining the hot shear strength. The Viscosity Index of a oil is the ability of the oil to resist shearing. Lets look at 2 different oils for a minute. Mobil 1 0-40 Euro has a VI of 185 Mobil 1 10-40 High mileage has a VI of 165 so although it is a touch thicker hot because of its base number of 10 being higher it also shears quicker than the 0-40 will. So at the end of the oil change the 2 oils will be the same hot yet the 0wt is superior cold.
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09-25-2013, 09:00 AM | #56 |
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With respect to running thinner oil for the purpose of saving/reducing wear on the main and rod bearings, what will the result be with respect to the ring end gap and piston to cylinder wall tolerances? It looks like our oil pump is more than capable of maintaining oil pressure, enough for lubrication and vanos activation, so moving to a 40 weight oil may just be a matter of burning more oil, which I'd more than live with topping off now and then.
Thanks again for the info; I've barely had time to look at each post, which I'll do today sometime.
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09-25-2013, 09:22 AM | #57 | |
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09-25-2013, 09:40 AM | #58 | |
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09-25-2013, 10:48 AM | #59 | |
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09-25-2013, 11:24 AM | #60 |
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This is very informative. I will be sending my bearings to Regular Guy to measure them and add the measurement to this great thread.
They are coated bearings and got 30k of hard driving. Awesome thread man ! |
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09-25-2013, 01:29 PM | #61 | |
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09-25-2013, 01:38 PM | #62 |
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Since I use Redline 10w60, I think I'll mix a few quarts of Redline 0w40 to help cold start wear.
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09-25-2013, 04:46 PM | #64 | |
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By the way, great information.
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09-25-2013, 05:34 PM | #65 |
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Awesome thread. Subscribed.
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09-25-2013, 06:04 PM | #66 |
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Anyone have an opinion about mixing in 4-5 quarts of BMW 5W30 with the 10W60 while doing 6,500 mile oil changes?
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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