ESS 550 Kit.. Tuned by Mike Benvo

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by SickeM3

And you know this because
1. your his lawyer
2. you have intimate facts because your just a regular person who happened to buy his tune and like it so BPM and Benvo decided to share every aspect of the history with you
or
3. you don't know what your getting into

which is it?

Like I said, it would be very humiliating to continue your course. I've said my piece on the legal aspect you want to go with this, and the tuning aspect that it should be going, and no-one has yet said anything to refute what many members, vendors and myself have stated already. "Burn baby burn"

I am not his lawyer. I don't have "inside info" about BPM or Benvo; I know as much as a regular customer. But I am confident enough in the situation -- a sense most heavily informed by your unsophisticated speech -- that I'll be just fine.

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

You are correct, I'm not a lawyer. So what court would handle this? Small claims court? Because BPM might loose a potential customer that was about to spend $20 for his key fob to be coded? Or criminal court? Because the poster might give Mike an eating disorder (although we all know Mike can handle these things quite well). Please enlighten me here. This is how I read your post.... you are threatening an online community responding to a particular claim. BPM didn't like the way this discussion is going, so the last-ditch effort (instead of providing answers, or actual data) is to threaten this community with a lawsuit. That, is what I call trying to impose a muzzle on freedom of speech. A discussion we did not start.

It depends how much in damages BPM would seek. Aside from actual business damage (admittedly difficult to prove), BPM would likely be entitled to "general damages" in which the jury just assigns what it thinks is a fair value. And there is the potential for punitive damages if the jury finds that the conduct was malicious.

But this is all theoretical. Unless the defendant has the means to pay for a lawyer, the case will probably end in a default judgment: It would unopposed and the only evidence would be presented by the plaintiff. The resulting award would be made into a judgment, then served on the defendant. If the poster cannot or does not pay, collections comes a knocking. Wage garnishment, repossession. It's not pretty. Generally speaking, of course.

Not that you seem to continue to regard the whole "community" as in jeopardy when I only perceived "SickeM3" as very arguably defaming BPM. Though you do raise an interesting question whether the forum, by not taking steps to curtail "SickeM3" after the situation was brought to their attention (and I brought it to their attention last night) constitutes a ratification of his conduct. I don't know the answer to that question.

But since you repeatedly bring up lawsuits, and since you are a lawyer may I ask you this: In case BPM took the ESS tune, and simply "renamed" it, what would that be? And I add (you are a good teacher), I obviously don't know that, and I believe that this is probably not true. But since we are all skating at the edge of a legal nightmare, I'd be interested if this might pose a problem for BPM.

Thank you.

Intellectual property is definitely outside the scope of my knowledge. But, very off hand and generally speaking, in the case of one company renaming the products of another, I would think it would depend whether the company whose products were re-named had patented, trademarked, or copyrighted the items. It also assumes it is possible to assert IP rights to a tune file of that sort, which I'm not sure can be done. It's a good question.

[chris s]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

Thank you, that clears things up.

[Verify]

Originally Posted by Hujan

I don't have "inside info" about BPM or Benvo; I know as much as a regular customer. But I am confident enough in the situation -- a sense most heavily informed by your unsophisticated speech -- that I'll be just fine.

.

Your sure about that? How about a friendly gentleman's wager? If one of us is wrong, they request a permanent ban and are never to be heard from again on any bimmerpost forum?

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by Hujan

I am not his lawyer. I don't have "inside info" about BPM or Benvo; I know as much as a regular customer. But I am confident enough in the situation -- a sense most heavily informed by your unsophisticated speech -- that I'll be just fine.



It depends how much in damages BPM would seek. Aside from actual business damage (admittedly difficult to prove), BPM would likely be entitled to "general damages" in which the jury just assigns what it thinks is a fair value. And there is the potential for punitive damages if the jury finds that the conduct was malicious.

But this is all theoretical. Unless the defendant has the means to pay for a lawyer, the case will probably end in a default judgment: It would unopposed and the only evidence would be presented by the plaintiff. The resulting award would be made into a judgment, then served on the defendant. If the poster cannot or does not pay, collections comes a knocking. Wage garnishment, repossession. It's not pretty. Generally speaking, of course.

Not that you seem to continue to regard the whole "community" as in jeopardy when I only perceived "SickeM3" as very arguably defaming BPM. Though you do raise an interesting question whether the forum, by not taking steps to curtail "SickeM3" after the situation was brought to their attention (and I brought it to their attention last night) constitutes a ratification of his conduct. I don't know the answer to that question.



Intellectual property is definitely outside the scope of my knowledge. But, very off hand and generally speaking, in the case of one company renaming the products of another, I would think it would depend whether the company whose products were re-named had patented, trademarked, or copyrighted the items. It also assumes it is possible to assert IP rights to a tune file of that sort, which I'm not sure can be done. It's a good question.

What is outside of your abilities counselor, is tact, humility and knowledge about FI tuning on the S65, so obviously you turn it into a disscussion on what you think you know best, frivolous lawsuits.

[mkPOTO]

looks like this thread also moved a bit over to another board.. lol

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

You're talking about showing restraint yet you bring up the "libel" card counselor? Should have known you were an attorney, who couldn't show any restraint, instead you try and flex your attorney muscles on a car forum, never seen it in all my years in the car community, pathetic. This particular subject is discussed all the time on every car forum, you are the first 3rd party or attorney who has ever brought "libel" up that I've seen, are you Benvo's attorney? You certainly are acting like it, are you planning on threatening everyone you disagree with to tread lightly or a possible lawsuit could ensue or that has an opinion about your friend and his qualifications to tune the S65, and manifesting it on a car forum? FWIW I thought you were Benvo as well, no one in their right mind would bring up Libel, unless it was the said person himself, now that I've witnessed, but it's usually desperation, and the person is usually in a corner. Get out of here with your libel nonesense, you don't belong in a technical discussion about FI on the S65, who's qualified, and the reality of the process, because you don't know anything about it, SickeM3 does. Go to your civil law forums and do your attorney bullying over there, it doesn't belong here no matter how much you don't like what the other person is saying about your friend and it's a punk move on your part.

Why do you assume it is "bullying" instead of trying to do what the moderators should have done a long time ago and steer the thread away from personal attacks against a company and, if I'm not mistaken, a board sponsor?

Again it's one thing to say you'd stick with an ESS tune on your ESS-supercharged car. Why you and others think it's okay to turn this (or any) thread into a full-blown attack on BPM generally is baffling and says far more about you, sickeM3, and your cronies, than it does BPM.

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by SickeM3

Your sure about that? How about a friendly gentleman's wager? If one of us is wrong, they request a permanent ban and are never to be heard from again on any bimmerpost forum?

Wrong about what?

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

What is outside of your abilities counselor, is tact, humility and knowledge about FI tuning on the S65, so obviously you turn it into a disscussion on what you think you know best, frivolous lawsuits.

Nothing quite so ironic about someone bemoaning a lack of tact who then uses a graphic of two smiley faces vomiting on one another.

[nullrouted]

Originally Posted by Hujan

Nothing quite so ironic about someone bemoaning a lack of tact who then uses a graphic of two smiley facing vomiting on one another.

: :

[1MOREMOD]

why does this keep happening? why all the butt hurt?

[Verify]

Originally Posted by Hujan

Wrong about what?

well, lets just start with knowledge, skills, ability, and equipment to properly tune the car from scratch.. You claimed he can, even though admittedly you know nothing about them that a regular customer like yourself, would know; And given multiple parties have stated how cumbersome the task is..

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

why does this keep happening? why all the butt hurt?

Agreed, and I was done with it. I think it's fine to have this discussion it has been done in the same vain numerous times and the truth normally comes out. There's always a few here that are just naive, I've been wrong/naive myself and certainly don't know everything. However bringing up libel, being passive aggressive about it and suggesting that it could be coming by an attorney who's one of BPM's clients on a car forum is one of the lowest things I've seen in a long time.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

Agreed, and I was done with it, and I think it's fine to have this discussion it has been done in the same vain numerous times and the truth normally comes out, there's alwasy a few here that are just naive, I've been wrong myself and certainly don't know everything, but bringing up libel and being passive aggressive about it and suggesting that it could be coming by an attorney who's one of BPM's clients on a car forum is one of the lowest things I've seen in a long time.

yeah i will have to go back and read some of this before i comment. just seems like a rehash we have every couple months. people banned over their tune opinions and now legal action. crazy. FREE MDOSU!

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by SickeM3

well, lets just start with knowledge, skills, ability, and equipment to properly tune the car from scratch.. You claimed he can, even though admittedly you know nothing about them that a regular customer like yourself, would know; And given multiple parties have stated how cumbersome the task is..

No, you don't get it. I never said BPM had those attributes. I simply said that unless you have proof they don't, your factual claim that they do not constitutes libel. It's not the same thing. Since you claimed they didn't, you have the burden of proof -- both in law and logic -- to back your assertion up with proof.

You took an affirmative position on BPM. I haven't taken a position one way or another on the topic.

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

Thanks. And thank you for ensuring things are legal around here. The internet is dark place after all. But if you think this thread is bad, you might wanna check out the other forums. I think this will help you to get a clearer picture of what is going on here.

Thanks again. As mentioned already if you hop over to another forum (I can PM you the name) you will get some great insights regarding what is going on here. And it looks like the ESS tune was indeed copied. So I actual believe there might be some suing going on after all. Isn't that weird.

I have no idea what other thread you are referring to, nor do I care that much. See my response above. I didn't say "sickeM3" had committed libel. I said what he was saying was libelous unless he has proof what he said was true. If the proof exists, then good for him. I just have my doubts.

Maybe this will give you perspective: I would have given a friend the same warning if they PM'd me in advance and said they were going to post what "sickem3" posted. I would have said, "Dude, tread carefully. Unless you can prove what you are about to say is true, I wouldn't say it. Or I would try to frame it differently."

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

Agreed, and I was done with it. I think it's fine to have this discussion it has been done in the same vain numerous times and the truth normally comes out. There's always a few here that are just naive, I've been wrong/naive myself and certainly don't know everything. However bringing up libel, being passive aggressive about it and suggesting that it could be coming by an attorney who's one of BPM's clients on a car forum is one of the lowest things I've seen in a long time.

Oh, get over yourself. I am just a poster who knows something that crosses the line when I see it. His post crossed the line. No one is threatening a legal action, no one put me up to it, and probably nothing will come of it. The point was it went too far. Would I have spoken up if I wasn't a BPM customer and someone who knows Mike personally as such? Maybe not. But it would not have changed my opinion; absent a basis in fact, his post was defamatory.

[happos2]

as they say...OBJECTION..on what grounds...SPECULATION....

[mkPOTO]

Originally Posted by happos2

as they say...OBJECTION..on what grounds...SPECULATION....

but that is what forums are for.. anyone can state there opinion, you either take it or leave it. Just because you say people should stop doesnt mean it will ever happen

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

I'm sure Sal from Evolve will post here soon as well. You can read it, and then maybe you can offer some advice to BPM. They'll need it.

No way. BPM can't afford me. (I kid, I kid.)

[happos2]

Originally Posted by mkPOTO

but that is what forums are for.. anyone can state there opinion, you either take it or leave it. Just because you say people should stop doesnt mean it will ever happen

Until the mods say you have to stop by banning you...hehe

and I figured I could be a lawyer because I watched a lot of Perry Mason.

[Verify]

Originally Posted by Hujan

No, you don't get it. I never said BPM had those attributes. I simply said that unless you have proof they don't, your factual claim that they do not constitutes libel. It's not the same thing. Since you claimed they didn't, you have the burden of proof -- both in law and logic -- to back your assertion up with proof.

You took an affirmative position on BPM. I haven't taken a position one way or another on the topic.

Let me put it in terms you might understand Charlie:

Yes. Case closed

[mkPOTO]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

I'm sure Sal from Evolve will post here soon as well. You can read it, and then maybe you can offer some advice to BPM. They'll need it.

he won't no reason for him to get involved

[mkPOTO]

Originally Posted by happos2

Until the mods say you have to stop by banning you...hehe

and I figured I could be a lawyer because I watched a lot of Perry Mason.

can i then make a new screen-name and keep going? lol