My Failed Water/Meth Experiment on ESS VT2 650

[DLSJ5]

Interesting results Adam, with my vt625 kit, 93+ octane and wm, the car made 10-20+ whp simply by turning it on, same with the vt3. However, when I ran an e85 mix with the vt3, it lost ~10whp.

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by M&M

That's not gonna' make any power. You need 80-90% meth, maybe even 100%. I consistently make 15rwhp on my setup meth on vs meth off.

+1

[1SICKM]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

Interesting results Adam, with my vt625 kit, 93+ octane and wm, the car made 10-20+ whp simply by turning it on, same with the vt3. However, when I ran an e85 mix with the vt3, it lost ~10whp.

I saw approx 15whp increase

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

Interesting results Adam, with my vt625 kit, 93+ octane and wm, the car made 10-20+ whp simply by turning it on, same with the vt3. However, when I ran an e85 mix with the vt3, it lost ~10whp.

Originally Posted by 1SICKM

I saw approx 15whp increase

Were you guys running boost juice (49/51) or a mix with a higher methanol concentration?

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Were you guys running boost juice (49/51) or a mix with a higher methanol concentration?

Yes, boost juice.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by 1SICKM

I saw approx 15whp increase

...and do you remember the nozzle size that you used?

[SECOND2NONE]

Have you tried just running 91 plus the meth?

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by SECOND2NONE

Have you tried just running 91 plus the meth?

I have the 650 kit which requires at least 93 octane.

Running 91 plus water/meth is a risk because if something happens to stop the meth flow..."boom".

[SECOND2NONE]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

I have the 650 kit which requires at least 93 octane.

Running 91 plus water/meth is a risk because if something happens to stop the meth flow..."boom".

Didnt know it required 93, that sucks becuse cali only has 91. So that means those people have to constantly mix gas just to run the kit

[kawasaki00]

I would start with a tune up, that is made for the meth, problem is if it is not tuned the engine thinks it is going lean with the meth and dumpes fuel in, making it rich. There really is no way to account for the change unless a proper tune is done. The a/f graph that was posted is pretty far out to lunch.

[Stage 2 Drew]

I would hope within the flash tune you could have the ECU add timing when IATs decrease (when the meth is flowing). I am able to program that within my SCT tuning software.

Generally if you aren't tuned for the meth/octane the W/M mixture will cause you to run richer, hence making less power.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by Stage 2 Drew

Generally if you aren't tuned for the meth/octane the W/M mixture will cause you to run richer, hence making less power.

Correct, the meth by itself has no effect on how the engine runs. All it does is cool the incoming charge. The meth/water is long evaporated before it gets to the bore. The result is a net decrease ( I have seen well over a hundred degreees) in intake temp. This decrease in temp fools the engine into thinking it is lean and dumps more fuel in because it does not know it is supposed to be there.
Furthermore for the meth to work correctly it need to be introduced into the air track as early as possible. Like on the outlet of the blower, I am sure some will argue but the fancy multi port meth injection kit that dumps the meth directly down the throttle bore is the worst place to put it. It has to be introduced before the manifold so the IAT sensor can know what is going on. Introducing meth to the stream AFTER the iat sensor is a waste of time.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

The a/f graph that was posted is pretty far out to lunch.

What would you want the AFR to be when in boost? Seems to me like the AFR drop nicely to about 12.0, but I am not an engine builder or tuner.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by SECOND2NONE

Didnt know it required 93, that sucks becuse cali only has 91. So that means those people have to constantly mix gas just to run the kit

It is true, however it's not a big deal for me as there is a 76 station in between home and work with pump VP 100. I also have two other cars that serve my DD purposes.

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

I would start with a tune up, that is made for the meth, problem is if it is not tuned the engine thinks it is going lean with the meth and dumpes fuel in, making it rich. There really is no way to account for the change unless a proper tune is done. The a/f graph that was posted is pretty far out to lunch.

I was afraid of this as well, but hoped that going with a small nozzle would provide for very little water/meth which wouldn't disrupt things. As 1SICKM and DLSJ5 mentioned, they saw moderate increases in power (10-20 HP) just by turning water/meth on without tuning for it.

Originally Posted by Stage 2 Drew

I would hope within the flash tune you could have the ECU add timing when IATs decrease (when the meth is flowing). I am able to program that within my SCT tuning software.

Generally if you aren't tuned for the meth/octane the W/M mixture will cause you to run richer, hence making less power.

Hope to see you at AA4 buddy!

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

Correct, the meth by itself has no effect on how the engine runs. All it does is cool the incoming charge. The meth/water is long evaporated before it gets to the bore. The result is a net decrease ( I have seen well over a hundred degreees) in intake temp. This decrease in temp fools the engine into thinking it is lean and dumps more fuel in because it does not know it is supposed to be there.
Furthermore for the meth to work correctly it need to be introduced into the air track as early as possible. Like on the outlet of the blower, I am sure some will argue but the fancy multi port meth injection kit that dumps the meth directly down the throttle bore is the worst place to put it. It has to be introduced before the manifold so the IAT sensor can know what is going on. Introducing meth to the stream AFTER the iat sensor is a waste of time.

We tapped the blower in my case.

Dyno conditions are much more favorable that being on the track so we were seeing only slight drops in IAT's on the dyno compared with no water/meth. But I bet you are right that on the track, temp differences can be extreme.

When I had my 335 at the first Airstrip Event, I logged 36 deg C IAT's jumping 90 deg C IAT's by the end of the run when meth didn't flow. Next run after I fixed the flow issue IAT's started and remained at 36 deg C so yeah that's a huge delta.

[Stage 2 Drew]

Hope to make it out on Sunday pending the new work schedule.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

What would you want the AFR to be when in boost? Seems to me like the AFR drop nicely to about 12.0, but I am not an engine builder or tuner.

The 13.5 is fine on the bottom but i would not go richer than 12.3 on the top. The graph shows getting down to 11.8 or so, there is power lost in .5 ratio.

Originally Posted by Longboarder

I was afraid of this as well, but hoped that going with a small nozzle would provide for very little water/meth which wouldn't disrupt things. As 1SICKM and DLSJ5 mentioned, they saw moderate increases in power (10-20 HP) just by turning water/meth on without tuning for it.


We tapped the blower in my case.

Dyno conditions are much more favorable that being on the track so we were seeing only slight drops in IAT's on the dyno compared with no water/meth. But I bet you are right that on the track, temp differences can be extreme.

When I had my 335 at the first Airstrip Event, I logged 36 deg C IAT's jumping 90 deg C IAT's by the end of the run when meth didn't flow. Next run after I fixed the flow issue IAT's started and remained at 36 deg C so yeah that's a huge delta.

Sounds about right, roughly every 30 degrees of intake increase will pull about 8% fuel.
Where did dlsj5 tap his meth nozzle. If it is in the manifold or throttle body that is a huge difference from where you tapped into the blower.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

The 13.5 is fine on the bottom but i would not go richer than 12.3 on the top. The graph shows getting down to 11.8 or so, there is power lost in .5 ratio.

For the most part, the AFR lines are overlapping whether there is meth flowing or not. I see only one AFR line with meth that visibly appears to be half a point richer and it is richer only for about 1500 rpm. Thus, it looks like the tuner, ESS, wants the AFR where they are. Probably a leaner tune would yield more power, but you find most street car forced induction kit tunes slightly rich because it is safer than slightly lean. Since there is only a slight deviation and only in one run, it appears the water/meth is not making the AFR go pig rich and cost power. I am not sure the AFR are the explanation for the power reduction here.

With full time factory wide band 02 forcing the ECU to adjust fuel to hit the AFR targets in the tune, won't the ECU adjust the fuel to hit the targeted AFR? Meaning we won't see the AFR go pig rich, or if it does, it won't repeat and will be corrected.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I am not sure the AFR are the explanation for the power reduction here.

With full time factory wide band 02 forcing the ECU to adjust fuel to hit the AFR targets in the tune, won't the ECU adjust the fuel to hit the targeted AFR? Meaning we won't see the AFR go pig rich, or if it does, it won't repeat and will be corrected.

Only two things that will make back to back runs so different is timing and fuel. The introduction of meth to the system will make more power on a FI engine, if tuned for it. It cools the intake charge, therefore as long as the map is correct there will be a increase in power. But if not tuned it will lower the a/f ratio by about a entire ratio. Just be aware the sensor will not pick up the change correctly because of the huge difference in stoich of meth to gas.
I wonder what the fuel trim is doing when the meth comes on. Would help to know that. Every engine is different, what works for one car might need to be adjusted on another car.

[SYZ]

60-130 times would be a better way to determine the effectiveness of the system.

[SflBimmer8484]

That is a pretty large spread between runs. Like I told you before in the other thread you made, expecting meth to make you hp most likely wouldn't happen especially 20+ hp. However I am very surprised the meth did not help with the consistency at all.

[Mrbig]

So the meth is doing nothing At All to help ur performance ? Does it help keep the pulls consistent ?

[tightie]

Good luck Adam!