ESS VT2-650 Engine Blowout/Bearing Failure at 20k miles

[Malek@MRF]

Originally Posted by SECOND2NONE

Thanks..so i would estimate about 10k for a non sleeved built motor. That sounds good to me.

Yes, that is about correct depending on the components chosen, but that is a very accurate ball park.

The factory rods & crankshaft are very stout. What is truly only needed are lower compression pistons and rod bearings. While at it, I would recommend doing ARP fasteners to ensure that the rod bolts don't stretch and cause a rod bearing to spin and destroy the engine.

Since the factory engine is designed as a naturally aspirated system, the head bolts are also not designed to take a lot of longitudinal load. An example of this would be higher boost targets causing the head bolts to also stretch causing the head to lift off the head gasket and block. Minor change and expense to consider when doing an engine rebuild to prevent failure.

The factory valve springs are beyond adequate and the cylinder head is precision machined, there would be almost no advantage to port and polishing this engine. Needless to say, the cylinder head is a work of art.

[SECOND2NONE]

Originally Posted by Malek@MRF

Yes, that is about correct depending on the components chosen, but that is a very accurate ball park.

The factory rods & crankshaft are very stout. What is truly only needed are lower compression pistons and rod bearings. While at it, I would recommend doing ARP fasteners to ensure that the rod bolts don't stretch and cause a rod bearing to spin and destroy the engine.

Since the factory engine is designed as a naturally aspirated system, the head bolts are also not designed to take a lot of longitudinal load. An example of this would be higher boost targets causing the head bolts to also stretch causing the head to lift off the head gasket and block. Minor change and expense to consider when doing an engine rebuild to prevent failure.

The factory valve springs are beyond adequate and the cylinder head is precision machined, there would be almost no advantage to port and polishing this engine. Needless to say, the cylinder head is a work of art.

I was just reading about the head lifting on the s65. But their are no after market head bolts made.

[regular guy]

There are aftermarket head bolts and head studs made for the S65.

I'll help you put some real numbers to a build. These are invoice prices from an actual LC build. Some machine work was done at Dinan, and the build was done by a local BMW tech. These prices do not reflect any discounts, but approximately 15% discount was applied to the parts list.

$2785.55 - Mahle LC Pistons
$2978.80 - Carrillo H-Beam Connecting Rods
$450.00 -- Upgraded valve springs
$900.00 -- Head stud conversion
$1554,08 - Gaskets, seals, & bearings
$800.00 -- Machining* bore & hone
$650.00 -- Machining** Size main & rod bearings
$2600.00 - Labor to R&R Motor
$4000.00 - Labor to build motor
====================
$16718.43 - Total

* Even "drop in" pistons require honing for proper ring seal.
** Highly recommended.

Other notes:
I've been shown three FI S65 engines snap factory connecting rods with no apparent rod bearing issues. This is why upgraded connecting rods are so important.
I've been shown two FI S65 engines with connecting rods welded to the crank. This is why sizing bearings is so important.

I hope this helps.

[baba louey]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

Wow! Great info. Thanks!

Now that's beginning to look like an engine that can handle some sustained boost!

[Chriskm3]

Originally Posted by regular guy

There are aftermarket head bolts and head studs made for the S65.

I'll help you put some real numbers to a build. These are invoice prices from an actual LC build. Some machine work was done at Dinan, and the build was done by a local BMW tech. These prices do not reflect any discounts, but approximately 15% discount was applied to the parts list.

$2785.55 - Mahle LC Pistons
$2978.80 - Carrillo H-Beam Connecting Rods
$450.00 -- Upgraded valve springs
$900.00 -- Head stud conversion
$1554,08 - Gaskets, seals, & bearings
$800.00 -- Machining* bore & hone
$650.00 -- Machining** Size main & rod bearings
$2600.00 - Labor to R&R Motor
$4000.00 - Labor to build motor
====================
$16718.43 - Total

* Even "drop in" pistons require honing for proper ring seal.
** Highly recommended.

Other notes:
I've been shown three FI S65 engines snap factory connecting rods with no apparent rod bearing issues. This is why upgraded connecting rods are so important.
I've been shown two FI S65 engines with connecting rods welded to the crank. This is why sizing bearings is so important.

I hope this helps.

Thanks.

[Chriskm3]

Originally Posted by SECOND2NONE

Thanks..so i would estimate about 10k for a non sleeved built motor. That sounds good to me.

Not a bad price of have a piece of mind. It's less than the blower itself

[Endless619]

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

It was recently changed from $13,995 to $14,495.

Hopefully for the E9X M3 folks these prices will be slashed in half next year when the new M3/M4 is out?

Most folks are going to jump ship with the older E9X M model, thus with all cars, the aftermarket parts really take a dive in prices.

We saw it with the NSX, E46 M3, etc...

Just wondering.

[dogbone]

OP---may I ask how often the engine oil was changed in your car? Did you do it after a certain number of track days? Or after a certain number of miles?

[SECOND2NONE]

Thanks for the info. I guess it all boils down to what this turbo kit will go for and what its capable of doing at with pump 93, pump +meth, and race gas. Same for the harrop roots style supercharger

Figure 35-40k for a 6 spd e92 (2014 purchase date)
18-20k for tt kit installed

Thats already 53-60k.

Add another 10-15k if that turbo kit cant put out good numbers on stock block (at least 550 whp) and i need to do a low comp build.. Now were at 63-75k..regardless i will build the motor but i would like to wait some time.

But thats 997 tt money right there. My e46 turbo is doing 500 on pump 93 and capable of 600 whp on ms109 by just raising boost no additional tune all on stock motor. And thats a superflow dyno 6% lower than a dyno jet. If i cant get similar numbers to my e46, i just rather go buy 997tt (60-65k). Put 10-15k in that car and you can easily make reliable 600-650 awhp.

Sorry to derail your thread, buy just want people to understand why i was asking so many questions in regards pricing when it comes to building a motor.

Back on topic now

[pbonsalb]

When up in the 600 rwhp range, or you have the massive torque from a turbo or two, AWD is nice. The 997TT has it and that makes it possible to put more power down sooner.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by regular guy

There are aftermarket head bolts and head studs made for the S65.

I'll help you put some real numbers to a build. These are invoice prices from an actual LC build. Some machine work was done at Dinan, and the build was done by a local BMW tech. These prices do not reflect any discounts, but approximately 15% discount was applied to the parts list.

$2785.55 - Mahle LC Pistons
$2978.80 - Carrillo H-Beam Connecting Rods
$450.00 -- Upgraded valve springs
$900.00 -- Head stud conversion
$1554,08 - Gaskets, seals, & bearings
$800.00 -- Machining* bore & hone
$650.00 -- Machining** Size main & rod bearings
$2600.00 - Labor to R&R Motor
$4000.00 - Labor to build motor
====================
$16718.43 - Total

* Even "drop in" pistons require honing for proper ring seal.
** Highly recommended.

Other notes:
I've been shown three FI S65 engines snap factory connecting rods with no apparent rod bearing issues. This is why upgraded connecting rods are so important.
I've been shown two FI S65 engines with connecting rods welded to the crank. This is why sizing bearings is so important.

I hope this helps.

Thx great info. Curious if the upgraded rods/springs used are capable of also extending the RPM of the S65 beyond 9,000 RPM.

[MisterEm]

Originally Posted by shadye90

Do you know for a fact that such a form came directly from a BMW dealer or did you "find it on the net?"

I don't have a dog in this fight but I can squash these "internet rumors" pretty quickly about the BMW NA release forms (not from the dealer). It wasn't found on the net and is addressed to me, with my VIN number.

I signed a release that included NDA language for my subframe repair and reimbursement from BMW NA - beyond the class-action settlement coverage period in 2010. I still have the original document and can scan it for your personal viewing. Avery @ BMW NA was who I dealt with.

The final paragraph of the document says the following:

"Customer agrees to keep confidential, the existence and terms of this Agreement. Customer agree not to reveal facts leading up to the terms or the conditions of this Agreement in any communication form, including but not limited to, word-of-mouth, print, broadcast, or internet

I would post it here...but that would violate the terms and she took good care of us.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming!
Mike

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

I'm pretty sure you are in violation of that agreement already.

Yup. lol.

[GIdriver]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

I'm pretty sure you are in violation of that agreement already.

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Yup. lol.

ditto

[VCMpower]

ARP bolts are the least that should be done with high power #'s. The stock rod bolts are spaghetti! Rods and ARP bolts is good reassurance for sure. Good call IMG. The area between the piston and crank is the weak link.

Originally Posted by img

I don't think the S65 motors fail cause of bearings issues. They fail cause the rods couldn't handle the abuse.
When I tore my motor down with almost 50k miles, 35k miles with the blower on it , my bearings were in a very acceptable conditions for a motor that saw 200MPH a lot.

So I don't believe those engines got rod bearing issues,its more of an excuse from some tuners.
I can pull out my old rod bearings and post pics.

I've seen and heard of bone stock S65 motors failing but not for bearings issues, it was rod issues.

[IMG]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

Izzy knows his rods.

Lmao.
There are some issues with bearings tho. But when I took mine out they were fine

[chris s]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

Izzy knows his rods.

he definitely knows rods

[baba louey]

Originally Posted by img

Lmao.
There are some issues with bearings tho. But when I took mine out they were fine

Increasing HP by 200+ and going at full rpm! I can only imagine what those stock rods are doing. I don't know what the added force to the top of the piston is, but it must come close to exceeding the failure limits of some components. Reliable HP cost money.

[OM VT3]

Originally Posted by baba louey

Increasing HP by 200+ and going at full rpm! I can only imagine what those stock rods are doing. I don't know what the added force to the top of the piston is, but it must come close to exceeding the failure limits of some components. Reliable HP cost money.

I give my 650 a very hard time with no problems at all so far

[IMG]

Originally Posted by chris s

he definitely knows rods

Lmfao
Learned from the beat kidd

[V8FunNaturally]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

Oh look, made up numbers. No real life data to back up that claim.

While we all agree that a supercharger will speed up (another pun) any problem with the engine, we seen cars (a minuscule fraction) from all years having an issue with the bearings. Sure, there is a good chance everything would have been fine without a SC, but there is a good chance that it was an existing problem. But yeah, putting a blower on and driving it balls-to-the-wall doesn't help.

These kits are very reliable, and the vast majority of supercharged S65's are holding up very well, despite the fact that the engine was not originally designed for that.

Mark knew what he was doing, and he is very upfront about it - kudos to him! Shit happens when you go down the path of heavy modding (and drinking for that matter), but these are the risks we all accept when doing it.

Fair reply. Except if a SC'd engine fails it has no bearing (pun intended ) on the soundness of the stock engine. Aftermarket supercharging a high revving V8 without replacing major engine parts is irresponsible and even then it makes little sense if you care about medium or long term reliability. What do you do if you own a SC/TC business and some people beg you with money to change their perfectly fine high revving stock engine into a frankenstein ? you let them have it... You cannot stop people from destroying their possessions. They have a right to do so especially if they want to pay for it. If any situation deserves a voided warranty then this is it.

No high revving engine can be boosted reliably aftermarket. Just give me one example. These are radically different design requirements and lead to a different design and parts. If engineers did their job well for the S65 and extracted all the performance possible minimizing weight, maximizing rev limit, then there will be little margin to failure if you start boosting these parts. I don't blame ESS for their business acumen and everyone can do what they want with their car. But asking for a new engine too is asking for a kick in your butt.

[baba louey]

Originally Posted by leigh

I give my 650 a very hard time with no problems at all so far

Glad to hear that. Does 'a very hard time' include track days? BTW, I love your city. I've been there a few times. You guys have quite a famous track at Phillip Island, don't you?