NA tune gains? Any Proof?

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by M3PO

I am a somewhat unhappy tune customer...of Evovle's.

I don't feel that my tune did anything. The dyno showed negligible gains. It was on 231E and ran till it wouldn't make anymore power. Still strapped on the dyno, flashed to tuned 231E. Ran till it wouldn't make more power. It gained 6 HP or less over the curve.

As far as response and all that BS, I didn't feel much. Definitely not enough to justify $1K. So basically, they turned my CEL off for $1000.

And now, I have been waiting for my 240E file since January.

Doesn't sound like a good experience in terms of the 240E wait.

Keep in mind that even though you saw negligible gains on the dyno, on the street where it really matters you very well may have gains.

At speed, the IAT temperature is usually between 10-15 degrees of ambient temperature. So if it's 75 outside, at 80 MPH you'll have an IAT of 87 degrees.

Now stop the car and let it idle for 5 minutes, or run it on the dyno a couple of times (even with dyno fans). You'll see that the intake temperature is over 110F, even up to 140F depending on the number of runs, air flow, etc..

Then you flash the tune in and run it again, and are disappointed that it didn't make 20 whp more.. You'd be surprised with the amount of ignition advance retard and power loss from a 40 degree difference in IATs. I see stock cars on the dyno unable to hit the stock targets, but on the road they do. In the end, if you have a serious wind tunnel and a controlled and measured environment, the dyno is a very useful tool. But given that 99% of dyno testing is not in this kind of environment, it's not really an accurate representation of what happens on the street/track/ etc.

[W///]

Originally Posted by M3PO

I am a somewhat unhappy tune customer...of Evovle's.

I don't feel that my tune did anything. The dyno showed negligible gains. It was on 231E and ran till it wouldn't make anymore power. Still strapped on the dyno, flashed to tuned 231E. Ran till it wouldn't make more power. It gained 6 HP or less over the curve.

As far as response and all that BS, I didn't feel much. Definitely not enough to justify $1K. So basically, they turned my CEL off for $1000.

And now, I have been waiting for my 240E file since January.

I took like 5 mins to update to 240E. 6 month wait??

[sensi09]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

I'm willing to contribute $200 to your purchase of an eVolve or AA tune and see for yourself the difference.

From some of your other posts, I understand that you have a relationship with the guys at evolve, but if you don't mind could you share why you also suggest the AA tune

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by sensi09

From some of your other posts, I understand that you have a relationship with the guys at evolve, but if you don't mind could you share why you also suggest the AA tune

Not really any more. Sal and I used to talk tuning almost every day. But that was last year.

I wasn't suggesting any tune, I just threw two companies out there that I have zero issues picking up the phone and speaking with, and that have been more or less straightforward with me.

[STi_traitor]

Originally Posted by ILSMKU

You should stop posting. You talk too much.

How is it that I am talking too much? You comment is irrelevant! I posted that GIF because a few people on this thread were telling the OP to google for a Dyno chart that is available. Mike added the photo and stated there is no difference between 231 and 240, "MIND BLOWN" Why would ones mind be blown you ask? Simply because people have to be spoon fed on this forum due to their idiotic tendencies!

I have only contributed to this thread by sharing my opinion of BPM, laughing at a few comments others have posted (because they are funny) and trying to help the OP with sharing my videos on the differences. You are probably one of the hardcore "variables" guys I ran into once in the past so I guess it doesn't matter. Sorry it took me so long to reply back to this, I was busy cutting my lap time down at the Nurburgring with my BPM Engine and DCT software instead of posting meaningless posts like you have just done.

Here is what you have contributed to this thread.......really deep stuff, I truly am moved!

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...8&postcount=18

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...8&postcount=53

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...9&postcount=55

Next time you decide to make a decision make the complete opposite and stop wasting my time.

[Sales@Evolve]

Originally Posted by M3PO

I am a somewhat unhappy tune customer...of Evovle's.

I don't feel that my tune did anything. The dyno showed negligible gains. It was on 231E and ran till it wouldn't make anymore power. Still strapped on the dyno, flashed to tuned 231E. Ran till it wouldn't make more power. It gained 6 HP or less over the curve.

As far as response and all that BS, I didn't feel much. Definitely not enough to justify $1K. So basically, they turned my CEL off for $1000.

And now, I have been waiting for my 240E file since January.

Hi Brent,

I sent your tune back in February.

I asked for your original tune and got that back on the 1st of Feb.

I will resend the links for the 240E update again with the tuned file.

The error could be on either end but let's just assume it's on ours for now.

[BPMSport]

bubu, I have something for you:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=440

Haven't talked to him since I tuned the car, and no it wasn't paid. Random but I like to hear it.

[Sam@Alekshop]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Now stop the car and let it idle for 5 minutes,or run it on the dyno a couple of times (even with dyno fans). You'll see that the intake temperature is over 110F, even up to140F depending on the number of runs, air flow, etc..

Hmmm.

We dyno'd seven cars this weekend, three NA M3's, two blown M3's, an M5, and an FR-S to spice it up. We collected data logs on all the cars except the M5 and FR-S. We didn't see anything like this on our dyno results. The NA car IAT's stayed within 3 degrees of each other on all the runs. We even ran our standard heat soak tests by running back-to-back. We didn't see anything greater then 3-degrees IAT difference and certainly nothing like this 40-50 degree IAT increase between runs. I haven't checked the data logs from the blown M3's yet, so I can't report on those results.

Teaser hint. We hosted a direct shootout between a Dinan Stroker, RD Sport Stroker, and near-FBO M3. The Dinan Stroker and RD Stroker were about as identically modded as you could get. It was a great shoot-out. The results will certainly cause a lot of
discussion.

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by Sam@Alekshop

Hmmm.

We dyno'd seven cars this weekend, three NA M3's, two blown M3's, an M5, and an FR-S to spice it up. We collected data logs on all the cars except the M5 and FR-S. We didn't see anything like this on our dyno results. The NA car IAT's stayed within 3 degrees of each other on all the runs. We even ran our standard heat soak tests by running back-to-back. We didn't see anything greater then 3-degrees IAT difference and certainly nothing like this 40-50 degree IAT increase between runs. I haven't checked the data logs from the blown M3's yet, so I can't report on those results.

Teaser hint. We hosted a direct shootout between a Dinan Stroker, RD Sport Stroker, and near-FBO M3. The Dinan Stroker and RD Stroker were about as identically modded as you could get. It was a great shoot-out. The results will certainly cause a lot of
discussion.

Hmmmmm.

And which IAT sensor were you using to monitor the runs? The fact that you only saw a 3 degree IAT difference means that you were using your own IAT sensor and not the one that the car reads from

[Sam@Alekshop]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Hmmmmm.

And which IAT sensor were you using to monitor the runs? The fact that you only saw a 3 degree IAT difference means that you were using your own IAT sensor and not the one that the car reads from

Sit tight and wait for it

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by Sam@Alekshop

Sit tight and wait for it

Don't worry I won't lose sleep.

If you think that IAT's don't significantly rise from a car sitting there at IDLE, or after performing a few dyno runs, I'm not sure what to tell you. It's physics. You can't argue with it.

You stated that the "NA car IAT's stayed within 3 degrees of each other on all the runs". So what? They might have been. What was the IAT temperature in relation to AMBIENT temperature for EACH car?

You're comparing apples to oranges. Doesn't matter if the three cars had IAT's near eachother, what matters is the IAT differential between what's read at the sensor and AMBIENT temperature.

Your discussion is completely moot to the point about not being able to make more power with rising IAT temps, although I am very interested in seeing the results of the stroker motors

[Sam@Alekshop]

I can assure you we haven't forgot how to take IAT measurements from the CAN bus. Here's a reminder of what we can do.
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=702956

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by Sam@Alekshop

I can assure you we haven't forgot how to take IAT measurements from the CAN bus. Here's a reminder of what we can do.
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=702956

Looks good. And that's a 60-130 with rising IAT's if you look. And that's on the road, WITH proper airflow. Why did they go up in your results? Because the act of compressing the air generates HEAT!

Now take that 100mph+ air flow away and you're saying that the IAT's will be the same or within 3 degree of Ambient? From your own link you can see the increase in IAT and obviously the ambient temperate outside didn't raise that much during your 60-130 run did it?

In YOUR own tests (with proper airflow and on the road), the IAT's incrrased by over 40 degrees. Now do that same 60-130 test on the dyno, and I'll bet you that the IAT's will raise even more than that. Thanks for proving the point I was trying to make!

In fact, the FASTER you drive the CLOSER the IAT temps will be to ambient temperature (obviously with an S/C car it's going to rise due to compression of the air).

Now do the same thing and start a car dead cold and monitor the IAT. Do three pulls and see what the IAT is then.

It will be higher. Much higher. No arguing, I don't even know what the point of your comment was since it referred to IAT's between cars instead of EACH car compared to "Ambient".

I log IAT on my M3 every single time I drive it with my gauge which grabs it off CAN bus. Everything I said is 100% correct and I'll wait for you to prove otherwise.

[Sales@Evolve]

IAT's on the road do not rise during an acceleration run.

We have tested this numerous time under both freezing and 25+ degC temps (doesn't get much hotter than that in the UK).

An E9x M3 will show ambient +1-3 degC IAT once in real world conditions. Under full load and high speed, ambient = intake.

This is not just through OBDII but also with 4 k-type thermocouples placed from the intake scoops, inside the intake muffler and the opening of the plenum itself. The IAT sensor does not heatsoak on S65 setup either which is very nice to see (not IAT relocation kit is needed!). Infact, when you measure with the very quick reacting k-type thermocouples in various locations it's very interesting! Especially when you compare to the very slow reacting (in comparison) IAT sensor fitted inside the plenum.

Under idle conditions IAT's will rise rapidly no matter what. The frontal air scoop which takes air from just infront of the radiator rapidly warms up the temperatures in the intake muffler and heat from the recirculating oil breather system into the plenum itself.

On a dyno it's however a different story with the majority of dyno cells. The IAT's are significantly higher than in real world conditions with inadequate air flow.

EDIT - IAT's on the road can rise on an acceleration run in the case where you are behind another car at WOT. The exhaust gasses go straight into your intake system. Not great quality of air either! :-)

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by Sam@Alekshop

Hmmm.

We dyno'd seven cars this weekend, three NA M3's, two blown M3's, an M5, and an FR-S to spice it up. We collected data logs on all the cars except the M5 and FR-S. We didn't see anything like this on our dyno results. The NA car IAT's stayed within 3 degrees of each other on all the runs. We even ran our standard heat soak tests by running back-to-back. We didn't see anything greater then 3-degrees IAT difference and certainly nothing like this 40-50 degree IAT increase between runs. I haven't checked the data logs from the blown M3's yet, so I can't report on those results.

Teaser hint. We hosted a direct shootout between a Dinan Stroker, RD Sport Stroker, and near-FBO M3. The Dinan Stroker and RD Stroker were about as identically modded as you could get. It was a great shoot-out. The results will certainly cause a lot of
discussion.

By the way, did you dyno this yourself at your shop? I heard that this was a dyno day you attended hosted by BMW CCA...

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

IAT's on the road do not rise during an acceleration run.

We have tested this numerous time under both freezing and 25+ degC temps (doesn't get much hotter than that in the UK).

An E9x M3 will show ambient +1-3 degC IAT once in real world conditions.

Under idle conditions IAT's will rise rapidly no matter what. The frontal air scoop which takes air from just infront of the radiator rapidly warms up the temperatures in the intake muffler and heat from the recirculating oil breather system into the plenum itself.

On a dyno it's however a different story with the majority of dyno cells. The IAT's are significantly higher than in real world conditions with inadequate air flow.

Bingo. Thank you Sal.

Now just to clarify - on an NA car the IAT's will never rise on acceleration runs. But on a boosted car it's certainly possible and probable.

[Sales@Evolve]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Bingo. Thank you Sal.

Now just to clarify - on an NA car the IAT's will never rise on acceleration runs. But on a boosted car it's certainly possible and probable.

Possible and probable?

NO... 100% fact. No matter how good the intercooler the IAT's will rise and continue to rise if the system cannot remove heat fast enough. Of course we are talking without the use of ice directly placed on the heat exchangers.

Unless someone wants to defy the laws of physics and gas laws. Everything is possible on forums these days and I've even heard of non intercooled SC'd cars keeping IAT's low under continuous WOT runs. Amazing stuff.

I was in Dubai 2 years ago tuning a SC E46 on the dyno and the IAT's were being reported back as = ambient with 10 PSI for some time! Eventually they slowly crept us as the intercooler become less and less efficient but they stopped going up after 60degC! You can do amazing things if you change the NTC line for the sensor! The impossible can 'seem' to be possible.

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

Possible and probable?

NO... 100% fact. No matter how good the intercooler the IAT's will rise and continue to rise if the system cannot remove heat fast enough. Of course we are talking without the use of ice directly placed on the heat exchangers.

Unless someone wants to defy the laws of physics and gas laws. Everything is possible on forums these days and I've even heard of non intercooled SC'd cars keeping IAT's low under continuous WOT runs. Amazing stuff.

I was in Dubai 2 years ago tuning a SC E46 on the dyno and the IAT's were being reported back as = ambient with 10 PSI for some time! Eventually they slowly crept us as the intercooler become less and less efficient but they stopped going up after 60degC! You can do amazing things if you change the NTC line for the sensor! The impossible can 'seem' to be possible.

I'm glad both of us understand Physics

I was trying to illustrate this but I guess Sam will prove us both wrong.

[M3PO]

Originally Posted by GIdriver

I haven't seen your thread for a long time but was under the impession you were happy with it. Go figure.

I was very happy with the 231E update. That's what showed gains. I FELT that. When I came back for the tune, I didn't feel anything worth $1000.

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Doesn't sound like a good experience in terms of the 240E wait.

Keep in mind that even though you saw negligible gains on the dyno, on the street where it really matters you very well may have gains.

At speed, the IAT temperature is usually between 10-15 degrees of ambient temperature. So if it's 75 outside, at 80 MPH you'll have an IAT of 87 degrees.

Now stop the car and let it idle for 5 minutes, or run it on the dyno a couple of times (even with dyno fans). You'll see that the intake temperature is over 110F, even up to 140F depending on the number of runs, air flow, etc..

Then you flash the tune in and run it again, and are disappointed that it didn't make 20 whp more.. You'd be surprised with the amount of ignition advance retard and power loss from a 40 degree difference in IATs. I see stock cars on the dyno unable to hit the stock targets, but on the road they do. In the end, if you have a serious wind tunnel and a controlled and measured environment, the dyno is a very useful tool. But given that 99% of dyno testing is not in this kind of environment, it's not really an accurate representation of what happens on the street/track/ etc.

See above. This is all dandy but I didn't feel $1000 worth of placebo awesomeness.

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

Hi Brent,

I sent your tune back in February.

I asked for your original tune and got that back on the 1st of Feb.

I will resend the links for the 240E update again with the tuned file.

The error could be on either end but let's just assume it's on ours for now.

Thanks Sal. I'm not sure what happened. Regardless, I have received the new file you sent today.

I will flash the car to 240E and drive it around to get some new impressions of the tune. Hopefully I'll be more impressed than last time.

[biglare]

Blah Blah Blah.... Hey Benvo and Sal lets see some data logs! Where they posted at? : Let's see some data to back up all this lip service!

We are all waiting...

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by biglare

Blah Blah Blah.... Hey Benvo and Sal lets see some data logs! Where they posted at? : Let's see some data to back up all this lip service!

We are all waiting...

We don't need data logs to prove physics. It's pretty simple.

Compressing air = Increase in temperature. - PHYSICS
Lack of airflow = Increase in temperature at the IAT sensor. - PHYSICS
Exhaust gas recirculation robbing power - PHYSICS
Heat from the radiator rising up into the intake scoop - PHYSICS!

Don't tell me it's thermodynamics - this falls under the general category of PHYSICS!

You're basically asking for a log that gravity exists.

I will make a video of IAT's being logged in real time later today. Just need to fix my broken brand new GoPro. And track tomorrow, don't worry, I'll take logs for you

Stop creating drama. We've been nothing but factual with our posts. You can look at the logs of the ESS testing that Alekshop posted and you will see that it coincides exactly with what we've pointed out.

Originally Posted by M3PO

See above. This is all dandy but I didn't feel $1000 worth of placebo awesomeness.

Gotcha, best to work that out with eVolve since I am not involved.

[W///]

Originally Posted by biglare

Blah Blah Blah.... Hey Benvo and Sal lets see some data logs! Where they posted at? : Let's see some data to back up all this lip service!

We are all waiting...

The link posted in the previous page shows an increase of 40 degrees F between 10 runs. And it was noted by the person that logged all the data that between the 10 runs, the ambient temperature was between 82-84F (so 2 degrees difference).

That data directly proves that IAT does rise (which I would have thought is common sense no?)