Velos Designwerks | An in-depth look into Supercharger System differences

[Ali.K_BMW]

lol these threads crack me

[m3an]

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

Benvo!

Love it when you get all technical!

Serious note - you are completely correct here with respect to the fuel factor table and lambda aims.

The lambda will aim to what ever you set it - but it can only aim so much.

If the fuel factor table (10x10 fuel side) map is not altered correctly and the fuel scaling factor is not calculated correctly with respect to the size of the injectors then the aim will always be aiming but never achieving because the deviation is simply too large.

Our own supercharged car has been tested in 0 degC, 5-8 degC and 25+ degC. Our aim is 12.2 AFR. We achieve very close to it what ever the ambient temperature is (there is a limit where physics will take over but they are big). The reason is because the fuel scaling and fuel factor table has been correctly set which is derived from continual testing and retesting.

Now, for the fueling to go leaner with colder denser air implies that the DME is infact not at all intelligent and is like that of a Bosch Motronic 1.1!
A denser cooler charge will actual require more fuel and if that did happen then the AFR will be maintained.... like we would hope.
An intelligent DME will not allow this unless the base calibration for fuel is too far out for the aim to reach as mentioned above.

It's all quite logical.

I am by the way not going to comment on if the AFR is lean or rich on any graphs. Who knows... could be down to placement of the probe. Could be a break in the pipe drawing in air? Who knows?

(opens packet of silk cut silver and begins to smoke)

exactly, w.out all the tech BS; we tune for a target, and the ECU will adapt but only w/in a certain window of scale. Now if the car is tuned rather lean, I can't see that being beneficial once the car is heatsoaked or in stop and go 100 degree days, the car is going to want to pull timing and negate any benefits. Outside of that window and we have now put a window in the block.

And I guess another thing to note is if subject car has cats or not as this will def change values read at the tailpipe. BUt this is all the more reason that if I was gonna boost this car, and really extract all the power I can, I would def put a wideband 02 up near the collectors to get an "accurate" value

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

Benvo!

Love it when you get all technical!

Serious note - you are completely correct here with respect to the fuel factor table and lambda aims.

The lambda will aim to what ever you set it - but it can only aim so much.

If the fuel factor table (10x10 fuel side) map is not altered correctly and the fuel scaling factor is not calculated correctly with respect to the size of the injectors then the aim will always be aiming but never achieving because the deviation is simply too large.

Our own supercharged car has been tested in 0 degC, 5-8 degC and 25+ degC. Our aim is 12.2 AFR. We achieve very close to it what ever the ambient temperature is (there is a limit where physics will take over but they are big). The reason is because the fuel scaling and fuel factor table has been correctly set which is derived from continual testing and retesting.

Now, for the fueling to go leaner with colder denser air implies that the DME is infact not at all intelligent and is like that of a Bosch Motronic 1.1!
A denser cooler charge will actual require more fuel and if that did happen then the AFR will be maintained.... like we would hope.
An intelligent DME will not allow this unless the base calibration for fuel is too far out for the aim to reach as mentioned above.

It's all quite logical.

I am by the way not going to comment on if the AFR is lean or rich on any graphs. Who knows... could be down to placement of the probe. Could be a break in the pipe drawing in air? Who knows?

(opens packet of silk cut silver and begins to smoke)

100% Spot on sir. The days of Motronic are long gone. I actually have the Motronic 1.3 first adaptive Bosch ECU sitting behind me. It's an old school brick - particularly terrible when boost is introduced. It was fifty times harder to tune that DME for boost over something sophisticated like the MSS60 - this is a walk in the park!

And yes, if the fuel factor table ramp up is not set correctly on an S/C car, this can cause issues with inconsistent fueling. You're referring to the map at address 0x797xx I'm glad were on the same page.

[m3an]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

100% Spot on sir. The days of Motronic are long gone. I actually have the Motronic 1.3 first adaptive Bosch ECU sitting behind me. It's an old school brick - particularly terrible when boost is introduced. It was fifty times harder to tune that DME for boost over something sophisticated like the MSS60 - this is a walk in the park!

And yes, if the fuel factor table ramp up is not set correctly on an S/C car, this can cause issues with inconsistent fueling. You're referring to the map at address 797xx I'm glad were on the same page.

SC is much easier on an old skool simple setup as one can set the timing and use a FMU for fuel control as the boost is linear and the FMU is boost dependent. Set it up and drive it. Turbo tuning is always more of an art as boost is totally diff

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by m3an

SC is much easier on an old skool simple setup as one can set the timing and use a FMU for fuel control as the boost is linear and the FMU is boost dependent. Set it up and drive it. Turbo tuning is always more of an art as boost is totally diff

True, X boost at Y RPM is always nice to work with. This versus tuning for the 'onset' of boost which can be different depending on exhaust gas flow at the turbine.

The 7 series runs quite good given I'm using the stock DME with a 4" MAF and they didn't even use MAF's back then! But only so much you can do with such outdated technology. And it is not using an FMU, everything is 100% run through Motronic 1.3, 8 bit. Useless. Makes much more sense to use a MAP based system, so that's my next project

And yes, o2 sensor placement is very important - not only for an accurate reading but for fuel trim correction as well.

(I let off on the shift because I'm afraid my automatic will explode)

[m3an]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

True, X boost at Y RPM is always nice to work with. This versus tuning for the 'onset' of boost which can be different depending on exhaust gas flow at the turbine.

The 7 series runs quite good given I'm using the stock DME with a 4" MAF and they didn't even use MAF's back then! But only so much you can do with such outdated technology. And it is not using an FMU, everything is 100% run through Motronic 1.3, 8 bit. Useless. Makes much more sense to use a MAP based system, so that's my next project

And yes, o2 sensor placement is very important - not only for an accurate reading but for fuel trim correction as well.

(I let off on the shift because I'm afraid my automatic will explode)

agree 100%; ditch the maf for a good map/speed density setup

[OM VT3]

what size are the injectors on the ess 625 and 650?

[SflBimmer8484]

May I ask why posts have been removed?

[OM VT3]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

I thought I'd chime in and mention that 'Ass Clown Tuning', and 'Douche Canoe Engineering' is teaming up to develop our own supercharger that will be better than anything else on the planet. In fact, we have data that suggests that anybody running a different system will become extremely gay.

Our test model puts out around 2000 HP. Cooling is still a bit of an issue, but we are talking to a local nuclear facility to find solutions regarding heat-soak. Right now a small lake is suggested.

Reliability is also a bit of an issue, so we suggest you buy 2 units... by the time your motor blows we are most likely out of business anyway, but all will be covered under our 'fuck you and your mother warranty', we also offer top-notch 'shit on your father's face service'.

Thank you.

Best,
Team Plutonium

ahahahahaha

[[Deactivated-Velos]]

We've progressed to the point of nothingness, this thread has lost all meaning and is going nowhere... These forums are open to discussion but sometimes our favorite avenue to discuss our passion for cars can sometimes be too informal and take wrong turns.

If anyone would like to have a private discussion about supercharger systems please contact me and i will be happy to oblige.

I have taken notes that a few members found my direct attitude to be a down right brash and i take your opinions to heart and it has been noted.

Hope everyone enjoys their cars safely and in good health.

Thanks for reading.