Velos Designwerks | An in-depth look into Supercharger System differences

[Hai_Cheo]

Coniooooo mi gente.

[SflBimmer8484]

Originally Posted by Omar@VelosDesignwerks

Andrew,

Lunch on me whenever you want, no street racing or anything like that... just pointers for the forum. Thats not the way to speak to someone that spent over $15k with you.

Best,

]

[IMG]

Originally Posted by mchm3

My kit didnt have a light, and my car blew up cause of your supercharger, and no responsibilty was taken, You guys actaully made me pay 2k to take my motor apart after it blew and made some excuse as it was a bmw oil failure that would of happened even if my cars was stock..... how many car have blown on your kit already 5-6 ??? Also my car was dct no overrevving. I have emails and pics to prove it, btw my car was the the matte green 4 door with copper wheels for reference

Sorry to hear about your car man.
I took my motor apart @ 50,000 miles to build a VT3 ,2008 M3 and i can assure you there is not an oil pump failure or bad bearings in these motors as some SC companies out there claimed after blowing multiple motors.
Its called TUNING blew you motor.
When you have a tune thats not 100% and starts detonating,the pistons start taking all the abuse and pound on the bearings causing wearing and after a while they fail.

[SflBimmer8484]

Originally Posted by mchm3

really no lubrication right, when you drained the motor it had ample quarts of oil right?

You have the independent report... Just post it I wont go back and forth with you over stuff that went on close to a year ago.

[IMG]

Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke

Now I see why Velos started this... Did Omar call you to reply because it seems you have not been on these boards in months.

You came here telling us you blew your transmission when racing at high speeds. We had the engine looked over and documented by a BMW master tech and found that the engine was seized due to failure of oil lubrication. You were here for every step of the process.

This was not a s/c or tuning related problem this was a lubrication issue. End of story!

I call BS on this one Andrew !
If you are speaking about lubrication issues with the S65 motor,clearly you never seen an S65 apart !
Told you a while back to worry about the blown motors and stop attacking other companies.

[SflBimmer8484]

Originally Posted by img

Sorry to hear about your car man.
I took my motor apart @ 50,000 miles to build a VT3 ,2008 M3 and i can assure you there is not an oil pump failure or bad bearings in these motors as some SC companies out there claimed after blowing multiple motors.
Its called TUNING blew you motor.
When you have a tune thats not 100% and starts detonating,the pistons start taking all the abuse and pound on the bearings causing wearing and after a while they fail.

Last post you will see from me in here.

This is from the ESS website. http://www.esstuning.com/products/E9...er-System.html

Application intended for: E90 M3, E91 M3, E92 M3 from 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011, on 2007 and 2008MY cars we recommend upgrading the rod bearings to latest BMW spec before installing this kit.

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke

Last post you will see from me in here.

This is from the ESS website. http://www.esstuning.com/products/E9...er-System.html

Application intended for: E90 M3, E91 M3, E92 M3 from 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011, on 2007 and 2008MY cars we recommend upgrading the rod bearings to latest BMW spec before installing this kit.

Interesting that it says that on the site. A friend of mine with an 08 inquired with Roman @ ESS his concern about fitting their kit to his car, and Roman replied that if he plans on doing the VT600 or lower kit, that it should not have any issues. So it appears that the step from the 600 to the 625 would call for new bearings? Seems like the 600 might be on the edge then for 2008 cars? I'm curious as I'm planning to supercharge mine at some point, but I have a lovely 12/07 build because I bought the M3 the first week it hit the floor.

Aside from that, you guys all really need to stop fighting and focus on making your own products better!

[VCMpower]

Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke

Last post you will see from me in here.

This is from the ESS website. http://www.esstuning.com/products/E9...er-System.html

Application intended for: E90 M3, E91 M3, E92 M3 from 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011, on 2007 and 2008MY cars we recommend upgrading the rod bearings to latest BMW spec before installing this kit.

[IMG]

Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke

Last post you will see from me in here.

This is from the ESS website. http://www.esstuning.com/products/E9...er-System.html

Application intended for: E90 M3, E91 M3, E92 M3 from 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011, on 2007 and 2008MY cars we recommend upgrading the rod bearings to latest BMW spec before installing this kit.

I can care less about what is posted by anyone.
I'm talking from my own experience. I worked on my motor myself,i took every piece apart with my hands and all the parts were inspected by the best .
I drove my car with a SC for 35,000 miles and did 200MPH runs on daily basses going home. So please,not just for you but for every SC company out there. STOP WITH THE BEARING AND OIL PUMP FAILURE BS PLEASE !

[mchm3]

Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke

You have the independent report... Just post it I wont go back and forth with you over stuff that went on close to a year ago.

A year ago , please there were other reason i kept quite and the owners there might no why . But really don't care anymore and your helping me careless. Don't even know if you worked there or your someones puppet right now.

Very simple i dropped 20k on my car with AA and its blew up you got some lame as report from some no body who god knows you paid to make the report in your favor. ( its funny active knows blow up specialist wonder why)

So now your saying I am the only 2012 E92 m3 that had oil pump failed and I just happen to have an AA full kit on ? This is what your staying correct? So the other 5 AA blown cars also had faulty oil pumps ? For those poor guys or AA excuses was they were all stick and over revved now with me you cant say this as i was DCT ! I think you have one on your lift with a nice wide body kit post that picture of BOOM!

Very simple my care detonated over and over and front two rods melted to the crank . I showed this to real tuners and all laughed said who tuned your car ! Simple you guys got me for 20k its all good what goes around comes around . EAD

let the excuses start sorry


Email form you fearless leaders FYI and for everyone :

Mike himself and scrappy told me when i was in the engine room that the oil levels were perfect because you guys drained all the oil, but now your telling me its not? And i did an oil change in December

On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Robert Hugh <rhugh@activeautowerke.com> wrote:
Mike, Sorry but I was under the understanding that Mike discussed with you that he was working on a detailed estimate of the engine rebuild.He also said to give him until next week to get that to you. If there is anything that seems unclear of where we are now please let me know.Please direct all your inquiries to, mikeahugh@activeautowerke.com, as Andres is no longer with us.If you feel necessary you can also contact me, I will be sure to keep abreast of your situation also.As for as an explanation of what happened to the motor, on inspection of a outside certified BMW Master Tech it was a main bearing failure due to lack of lubrication from low oil volume, viscosity or low oil pressure. Do you have any record of the last time the oil was changed, we have no records of car since installation of kit in 8/2011.We are also having Analytical Technologies do a detailed report on the probable cause of the engine failure.We will keep you informed as soon as we get the results. Thank You, Robert HughDirectorActive Autowerke(305)233-9300 ph.(305)253-8921 fax.rhugh@activeautowerke.com From: mch5ondubs@gmail.com [mailto:mch5ondubs@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 1:02 PM
To: Andres Valdes-Pages
Subject: Re: Active Autowerke Motor Photo's Is anyone going to reply or am I going to have to take different measures

Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 19, 2012, at 3:40 PM, "Andres Valdes-Pages" <Andresvp@activeautowerke.com> wrote:Mike,
Here are the pictures that you requested of your motor. If you would like any more or if you have any questions, Please feel free to contact me. Andres Valdes-Pages Active Autowerke"Come Play With Power"Sales Consultant(305) 233-9300 ext 258AndresVP@activeautowerke.com<imag...><image003.png>Disclaimer: The information in this email is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee only. If you receive this in error , please notify the sender immediately and delete from your computer. This message / email cannot be forwarded to another person or reproduced in any format in any publication, internet forum or other media without the express permission of Active Autowerke. Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. <IMAG0473.jpg><IMAG0474.jpg><IMAG0475.jpg><IMAG047 6.jpg><IMAG0477.jpg><IMAG0478.jpg><IMAG0480.jpg><I MAG0479.jpg><IMAG0481.jpg>

Reply Forward


Robert Hugh rhugh@activeautowerke.com
Mar 22

to me, Karl, mike, Fred


Correction, we never said the oil level was not correct. We are only telling you what the BMW Tech told us after he saw the parts.We are just getting an outside objective opinion. Robert HughDirectorActive Autowerke(305)233-9300 ph.(305)253-8921 fax.rhugh@activeautowerke.com
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5307 - Release Date: 10/03/12

[m3an]

and I had the first reply in this thread and it was deleted; no offense but this board is biased to the vendors as if they are the end all be all; this is a public forum and it's quite obvious Velos is against AA yet a year ago they were repping them hard... What a joke.. That first post is like a kids guide to boost. There's no tech info in there at all.

mentioning an Air to Air kit has charge pipe length and pressure drop, etc. But never providing any actual measurements.

[m3an]

Originally Posted by Omar@VelosDesignwerks

Figured this thread could use some good info for potential FI guys.. regarding AFR

From our understanding and knowledge the ESS software is designed to target low 11’s to high 12’s based on conditions and load. The higher the EGT, oil temps, load etc…the vehicle is experiencing the richer the AFR. When a vehicle is cool and is in more ideal conditions the software will adjust to run leaner in order to make more power. This is why when you see dyno’s of the ESS kits the AFR’s will often vary. Along with the fact that tail sniffers are sometimes off a bit. (ESS please correct me if I am wrong)

I'm sorry but saying ESS correct me if I'm wrong really makes me specualate @ your tuning ability. I for one would not feel comfortable with a sniffer that's "off" a little as this is the line between running good and a rod thrown out the side of the block. Also I wouldn't feel comfortable running boost on this car w/ AFRS anywheres' near 12; I 'd rather run the car a little fatter to be safe. Esp in South Florida

[Sales@Evolve]

Just adding a little info here on charge cooling with strict respect to the F10 M5.

The cooling abilities of this setup on this car are pathetic to say the least. We extensively road and dyno tested the first F10 in the country. The power drops very much after just one pull. In addition to that you can feel the fall off in power on the road after just two or three 3rd gear pulls.

If anyone cares to speak to just one OEM engineer you will get one response - its done for cost reasons and packaging. Also, OEM like to run the engines hotter now as it gives better emissions. You will see this also on older models.

Charge coolers on the whole are not a bad solution with respect to packaging. Our own supercharger kit was going to be based on a very elaborate charge cooler setup with twin cores which were very deep and wide. However, the results with respect to consistent power using various cores and even a remote system showed to be inferior to a well designed intercooler core with correctly flowed end tanks.

Bare in mind that we are not talking about comparing state of the art charge coolers to some crappy intercooler core. We are talking about comparing state of the art charge coolers to state of the art intercoolers such as HS Marstons and cores very similar to it.

Kit comparison cannot be just done on a dyno for a few glory pulls. Anyone can let the inlet temps get just above ambient and do a run. Even a mediocre charge cooler / intercooler will suppress a temperature rise for just one run.

Kit comparison is really carried out in real world conditions.

Any decent tuner will know how temperature sensitive the S65 is especially when bolting on a blower! Not only is temperature suppression a key element in a setup but also how quickly the system recovers once under load for sustained periods of time. Recovery rates and temperature are hardly ever discussed on these forums as this requires us to go to the next level of understanding. It seems 'peak hp' is the only important thing these days and dyno's do all the selling.

Intercooler placement and boost pipe / tract length - A good core will actually not require a huge amount of air to pass over it to be efficient. How quickly the heat is dissipated also played a large role. Of course I expect every one of the tuners from their vast experience and actual real world testing to appreciate that the frontal section of the E9x actually pulls air in from the front so essentially any charge cooler heat exchanger or intercooler will have air dragged out from behind it at quite some velocity irrespective of it being behind the bumper.
I am sure comments about blocking the coolant radiator could have been mentioned and again the core type plays a vital role here. Some cores (HS Marstons) actually accelerate the air as it passes over over the intercooler fins!

Some of the comparisons made are very good between the kits but I think it would be much more fair to compare all kits to each other rather than pin point one particular kit.

There is enough information on the VF kit for example. What about the monster G Power kits with their incredible mid range power?

What ever the intention of this thread is, I am going to ignore all negativity and even remote accusations. Let's see if this forum has enough class to rise above the previous nonsense and actually put out unbiased and helpful information.

Put the bashing and hate to one side, let's forget the sales and just for once give a thought to the people who used to enjoy coming onto this forum and enjoying being what we all hopefully are....hardcore BMW enthusiasts!

Time for me to go out for a near midnight drive in the white hammer

[VCMpower]

Thanks Omar.

Originally Posted by Omar@VelosDesignwerks

Figured this thread could use some good info for potential FI guys.. regarding AFR

From our understanding and knowledge the ESS software is designed to target low 11’s to high 12’s based on conditions and load. The higher the EGT, oil temps, load etc…the vehicle is experiencing the richer the AFR. When a vehicle is cool and is in more ideal conditions the software will adjust to run leaner in order to make more power. This is why when you see dyno’s of the ESS kits the AFR’s will often vary. Along with the fact that tail sniffers are sometimes off a bit. (ESS please correct me if I am wrong)

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by Omar@VelosDesignwerks

Figured this thread could use some good info for potential FI guys.. regarding AFR

From our understanding and knowledge the ESS software is designed to target low 11’s to high 12’s based on conditions and load. The higher the EGT, oil temps, load etc…the vehicle is experiencing the richer the AFR. When a vehicle is cool and is in more ideal conditions the software will adjust to run leaner in order to make more power. This is why when you see dyno’s of the ESS kits the AFR’s will often vary. Along with the fact that tail sniffers are sometimes off a bit. (ESS please correct me if I am wrong)

Sorry, this is not the way it works at all.

The VT625 targets .83 lambda at redline. That's 12.2:1 roughly.

We're talking about too lean here, not too rich.

The full throttle lambda aim 8x1 map is simply based on RPM while at WOT.

The car is not going to adjust when it's cool and run LEANER than what the targets are set to to make more power. This map is designed to set the targets period, and the DME will do a number of things to try and achieve those targets. It's going to try and hit the set targets period.

[m3an]

Sal, people don't mention the heat and recovery issues cause it's assumed that whoever is tuning the car is accounting for these issues.

I don't care what you're using, these BMW (all of them) run very hot, and this alone is a big factor w/ detonating. Couple that with a tune on kill, and boom



To the other guy who's engine blew, I have no dog in this fight, but just cause your car had oil in it when they drained it does not mean it didn't have an oiling issue. You can lose oil pressure w/ a full sump.

[MPoweredAuto]

Wonder what would happen if I jumped in...
I'm too busy working though. Y'all have fun with this, as pointless as it is.
Good job Velos, once again slapping the hand that fed you for years...

[m3an]

Originally Posted by Omar@VelosDesignwerks

Are you serious right now? I said they could correct me if I am wrong out of respect. Even though we offer their product I would not want to speak on their system without making sure my facts are 100%. Trust me I know enough about FI and the way the S65 works to comment.

Just a little knowledge for you the car/ecu will adjust its ECU based on the conditions. These cars are all WIDEBAND, the ECU's goal is to maximize power within factory safety margins as long as the conditions allow it. This is a different form of tuning and kind of shocked that any of the "tuners" in this thread would question the AFR.

Check out a dyno database or even back to back runs on the same car and you will notice the afr's read a little different. Kind of the same reason I get so confused when I see everyone pushing their NA software and making it seem like these cars react the same way every time.

I can go into this some more if you still do not understand.

Please don't tell me I don't understand. I understand you tune for a value and the ECU targets a cetain value, but that is only w/in a certain range.

Example; put the car on kill and it will eventually die.

Omar, Please don't try and insult me, that last comment was fubar. I dunno if you remember me, but I paid you to do some work to my car, and I had to redo it the next day. So thanks.


I will PM you now; NOT to put you on blast on a public forum'


remember, you guys started this bullshit thread

[m3an]

Originally Posted by Omar@VelosDesignwerks

Happy you agree, the car is not set on kill. Other tuners do and that is why it dies. Not meant an insult, just trying to lend some knowledge.

read my PM and lend you knowledge to others that need it. No offense but you should be talking to you employees or however started this thread as its comical bullshit. Why no mention of GPower or VF as others have stated. You clearly have issues w/ AA and that's ok, but don't try and corrupt others with bullshit posts that lack much technical knowledge and then when questioned refer back to ESS

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by Omar@VelosDesignwerks

Mike,

With all due respect please do not take this the wrong way, I get it trust me I really do. You bought tuning equipment and you offer services. Unfortunately you have no reason to be here and have been inviting someone to post back and forth with you. You have my email if you need to discuss anything but trust me the A/f on a wideband car will adjust both ways. If you do not know that head back to the drawing board and see what you dig up. I told you on the phone I have nothing but respect for you, lets keep it that way.

Best,

Hi Omar,

Nothing against you either. I was simply curious since I have had thoughts of supercharging my own car. I appreciate everything you've said other than "heading back to the drawing board". The fueling is TARGET based period, that's why we have wideband o2 sensors. You can see some fluctuations in AFR but this is likely due to Fuel Factor table changes, not the lambda aim targets. You obviously don't want me in this thread, so lets agree to disagree. I have done an insane amount of development on this ECU and know exactly how it works.

You are basically saying that there are fuel compensation maps for temperature in the MSS60 DME. What side of the ECU are these on? This is my last post here, maybe Sal can chime in since according to you I apparently have no idea what I'm talking about.

[Daft]

ummm hi. IB4L !

[Sales@Evolve]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Hi Omar,

Nothing against you either. I was simply curious since I have had thoughts of supercharging my own car. I appreciate everything you've said other than "heading back to the drawing board". The fueling is TARGET based period, that's why we have wideband o2 sensors. You can see some fluctuations in AFR but this is likely due to Fuel Factor table changes, not the lambda aim targets. You obviously don't want me in this thread, so lets agree to disagree. I have done an insane amount of development on this ECU and know exactly how it works.

You are basically saying that there are fuel compensation maps for temperature in the MSS60 DME. What side of the ECU are these on? This is my last post here, maybe Sal can chime in since I apparently have no idea what I'm talking about.

Benvo!

Love it when you get all technical!

Serious note - you are completely correct here with respect to the fuel factor table and lambda aims.

The lambda will aim to what ever you set it - but it can only aim so much.

If the fuel factor table (10x10 fuel side) map is not altered correctly and the fuel scaling factor is not calculated correctly with respect to the size of the injectors then the aim will always be aiming but never achieving because the deviation is simply too large.

Our own supercharged car has been tested in 0 degC, 5-8 degC and 25+ degC. Our aim is 12.2 AFR. We achieve very close to it what ever the ambient temperature is (there is a limit where physics will take over but they are big). The reason is because the fuel scaling and fuel factor table has been correctly set which is derived from continual testing and retesting.

Now, for the fueling to go leaner with colder denser air implies that the DME is infact not at all intelligent and is like that of a Bosch Motronic 1.1!
A denser cooler charge will actual require more fuel and if that did happen then the AFR will be maintained.... like we would hope.
An intelligent DME will not allow this unless the base calibration for fuel is too far out for the aim to reach as mentioned above.

It's all quite logical.

I am by the way not going to comment on if the AFR is lean or rich on any graphs. Who knows... could be down to placement of the probe. Could be a break in the pipe drawing in air? Who knows?

(opens packet of silk cut silver and begins to smoke)