Next gen F30 100 lb lighter than existing E90 3 series - Good news for next M3

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Levi

So, that is what I said and I will continue saying the next M3 will weigh under 1600 kg (EU), the target is to make the car as as light as the M3 E46.

Don't bet too much on that one:

"If there's any topic we're most interested in from M, it's weight reduction. But Biermann surprised us when he revealed that the goal of every M car isn't to lose weight from the model on which it's based, but match that vehicle's weight."

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/10/18/s...rned-at-bmw-m/

[southlight]

That's good news actually, the F30 335i weights 1,585 kg per EU standard which would be quite good for the F80 M3. I hope BMW M can meet that target.


Best regards,
south

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by southlight

That's good news actually, the F30 335i weights 1,585 kg per EU standard which would be quite good for the F80 M3. I hope BMW M can meet that target.

Agree south. What I am saying is, don't count on it matching the E46 M3 weight, which was under 1550kg I believe.

[checkmate]

The E46 M3 was light for its class and for its time. Anyone remember the rear subframe fiasco in addition to numerous other structural problems?

With the E9X M3-BMW learned its lesson and focused on additional strengthening mechanisms which yes-added weight (despite the extensive used of aluminum). One good look at the rear subframe of the E9X M's tell the whole story.

[BMW269]

That is what I said:

335i E90: 1610 kg (EU)
335i F30: 1585 kg (EU)
M3 E92: 1655 kg (EU)
M3 E46: 1570 kg (EU)
M3 CSL E46: 1460 kg (EU)

(all cars with manual transmission)

If M3 F80 weighs as 335i F30 is is quite close to the weight of the M3 E46.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Levi

That is what I said:

Well not quite. You said "as light as the M3 E46".

If M3 F80 weighs as 335i F30 is is quite close to the weight of the M3 E46.

Close indeed. Not the same though. However, any I do agree that any weight loss is good.

Now, we wait to see if it all pans out like this in real life. We've already seen the figures in BMW's press material contradicted by the F30 brochure. Let's just hope the brochure numbers are not also exaggerated. Also, let's hope they can keep the M3 weight on par with the 335i, and as importantly, the 435i and M4 weight on par with them as well (or better).

BTW, see you revised the E46 figure from 1560kg to 1570kg. I believe I do recall reading 1550kg in the past from other sources.

[Groundpilot]

I think new m3 weight will be around 3,450 pounds. Here is why i think so.
We already know that new m5 weight is 4300 pounds with 560hp. Historically, m3 matches m5 performance. Now, according to Scott(BMW insider), m3 will get about 450HP. If that is true, simple calculation is telling me that power/weight ratio of m5 is 7.68 and new m3 number should be around 7.7 to match m5 performance. If m3 has 450HP, weight =3,450
M5 power/weight ratio=7.7 based on 4,3000/560
M3 power/weight ratio=7.7 based on 3,450/450
I know, the same power to weight ratio in different cars doesnt always translate into the similar performance, but it should be close

[1MOREMOD]

we will have to wait and see. i would be happy if the new car loaded could be at 3500lbs. probably a little optimistic. my e90 now is 3660 with every option but dct.

[TheStig]

Awesome!!

[Groundpilot]

I think if m3 comes over 3500 pounds, we may see over 450HP engine

[SHOWTIME]

Watch it be a 3.8L V8 twin scroll Turbo

[BE EM KA]

One day I'll upgrade from my beloved E36 and this may be the car I get!!!

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by M3 09 AND135I 11

I think new m3 weight will be around 3,450 pounds. Here is why i think so.
We already know that new m5 weight is 4300 pounds with 560hp. Historically, m3 matches m5 performance. Now, according to Scott(BMW insider), m3 will get about 450HP. If that is true, simple calculation is telling me that power/weight ratio of m5 is 7.68 and new m3 number should be around 7.7 to match m5 performance. If m3 has 450HP, weight =3,450
M5 power/weight ratio=7.7 based on 4,3000/560
M3 power/weight ratio=7.7 based on 3,450/450
I know, the same power to weight ratio in different cars doesnt always translate into the similar performance, but it should be close

This is simple but very solid reasoning. An M3 typically does match or best an M5 from a dig. The M5 will typically walk away at higher speeds. Power to weight is the single most important factor in determining a vehicles performance.

[BMW269]

550i F10 (8AUT): 1905 kg (EU)
M5 F10 (7DCT): 1945 kg (EU)

This makes the M5 "only" 45 kg heavier the top 5 Series. If to add these 45 kg of M on the 335i to the an M3 it gives this:

335i F30 (6MT): 1585 kg (EU)
M3 F80 (6MT): 1625 kg (EU)
M3 E90 (6MT): 1680 kg (EU)

According to this the M3 Sedan F80 is to be 55 kg lighter than M3 Sedan E90. Such weight and power it will have the same power/weight ratio as the M3 CRT E90.

Now, the weight depends on the engine also: the 3.3l V6 will be heavier than the 3.2l I6, but the V6 will be more compact and be pushed further back, what would give an even better 50:50 balance.

We can't speek about the Coupé yet, as 4 Series Coupé F32 will be alot more different than 3 Series Sedan F30, when compared to 3 Series E90 and 3 Series E92. Think about 5 Series vs. 6 Series.

Also concerning the interview with M GmbH CEO, I would believe that very much. In such interview it was said M would never build SUVs, it happend the other way round. BMW talked about making cars lighter, 7 Series F01, 6 Series F1X, 5 Series F1X, and Z4 E89 all got heavier than the previous generations. Then they stopped talking about it and we found out X3 F25, 1 Series F20 and 3 Series F30 are lighter, or at least not any heavier. For the M3/M4 there are going to be alot changes. But they are unfortunately going to be watered down, as the M5 F10, to let place for CRT/CSL/GTS versions.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Levi

the 3.3l V6 will be heavier than the 3.2l I6, but the V6 will be more compact and be pushed further back, what would give an even better 50:50 balance.

Don't drink all of the BMW Koo-Aid. Sorry for the slang... Don't believe everything they say. 50-50 weight distribution is not at all ideal for the best performance. A significant rear weight bias like 60-65% rear offers much better performance. You get improved traction at launch. More neutral (closer to 50-50) weight distribution under hard braking and improved initial turn in understeer. Obvious examples of such strategies include most Ferrari's and a many serious purpose built race cars such as F1.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Don't drink all of the BMW Koo-Aid. Sorry for the slang... Don't believe everything they say. 50-50 weight distribution is not at all ideal for the best performance. A significant rear weight bias like 60-65% rear offers much better performance. You get improved traction at launch. More neutral (closer to 50-50) weight distribution under hard braking and improved initial turn in understeer. Obvious examples of such strategies include most Ferrari's and a many serious purpose built race cars such as F1.

Don't teach me about weight distribution. The fastest car have all have more weight on the rear axle, even if front engines, as they are mid-front: Ferrari 599, Lexus LF-A. It is already good BMWs are closer to 50:50 than nose heavy as Audis. The more weight can be put on rear axle, the better, but not a very esay task when you have rear seats. Only the Maserati GranTurismo has 4 seats and a rear biased weight distribution thanks to mid-front engine and transaxle gearbox monting.

BUT: Not even one drift car has rear engine. All are front engines with RWD. M3 is a good drift car, 911 not. 911 has other advantages on track.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Levi

Don't teach me about weight distribution.

You are the one who said 50:50 is better. That well deserved a correction.