Official S65 Injector Failure Thread

[powerbait]

That's a shame.
I recently had some severe misfires and a fuel pressure code, and got worried. I'd been running on the track and usually throw some octane boost in the tank for good measure to prevent knock in case of bad gas. Turns out that stuff coated my plugs with an orangish layer, even the tail pipes had a bit. Replaced plugs and updated the FP sensor and all was good, but while I was at it I decided to preemptively replace all the injectors. I'm at 62k miles.

[Redd]

That orange coating is from the manganese component in MMT which is the active ingredient in most octane boosters. It's not good for the cats (coats the cells making the cats less efficient) but otherwise harmless to the engine and exhaust. It certainly should not get on our injectors since the S65 is port injected and not direct injection.

[powerbait]

No cats here

[jhu321]

PSA - FCP has the Bosch injector kit on sale for 381.60 right now

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...h-0280158164kt

not the 20 bucks per unit it was once was but its probably best we're gonna get in this economy

[sebm3]

Originally Posted by jhu321

PSA - FCP has the Bosch injector kit on sale for 381.60 right now

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw-fuel-injector-kit-bosch-0280158164kt

not the 20 bucks per unit it was once was but its probably best we're gonna get in this economy

Thanks for the heads up!
Purchased a full set last night.

[powerbait]

You can save a few bucks on the Bosch through RockAuto

[jovolvo1]

2013 M3 coupe comp package and Dynan stage one from new purchase
78k miles. (was in for rod bearings replace at 65k, they were low wear)
Had the same issue 3 weeks ago.
No pre-fail symptoms
Climbing a hill at around 7k rpm
Right as I let off limp home engaged and car was not firing clean
Drove home 2.5 miles at <1500 RPM with clear misfire and 2 tail pipe backfires.
STRONG smell of raw and partial burned fuel.
Shut down. (stunk up the garage)
Towed to shop.
Cyclinder 7 was washed down and had light scoring.
Compression was 30% (-65%) of spec.
Dropped oil treatments in cylinder.
Currently running and driving (never over 4k rpm) with no codes or warnings.
Love this car, 2nd owner at 32k miles. Always makes me smile when I drive it.
Plan is to drive it gently for 2500 miles, and change oil, check for metal and recheck compression.
If it is recovering compression at a good rate, press on.
If not, it either hits BaT as a donor car as a run and drives in need of a rebuild/ swap. Or (more likely), the S65 goes for a 4.17, 12.5:1 rebuild from PR.
Will try to update after the 2500 miles.

[spammysammich]

It is impossible to recover from that much compression loss, it is likely that there has been some damage to your rod from hydrolock in addition to the bore scoring. Sorry for your loss.

[RocketyMan]

I wouldn't have drove it home at all. If a suspect injector was stuck open, that means the entire time fuel was dumping into the crank case. This is clearly evident by "strong smell of fuel." Therefore, the fuel would've completely diluted any oil being pumped through the system. Thus, the boundary layer of oil is compromised allowing metal to metal contact; ergo, metal shavings in system.

Doing any sort of "oil treatment" isn't going to magically bring back AluSil and fill in any gaps of bore scoring. This is PERMANENT compression loss. In my experience, when this happens, the piston ring's lands get damaged, too from galling.

A simple rebuild won't fix this. A new donor engine would be needed. Most likely, junk block, crank, pistons, etc.

Sorry for your loss.

[BashBosh]

Originally Posted by BashBosh

Thanks - replaced injector in #6 and tech says engine running fine. Shop is recommending doing the other 7 injectors but I'm going to take it home and see how it runs for a while, the installed cost is $300 each!

jvictormp - I shut the engine down myself. No hydrolock fortunately. It turned over fine just didn't fire. I had nothing in iDrive throughout. But seeing other posts, even attempting to start seems to be a bad idea.

Me again

Another failure today. Car on way to shop but the exact same situation as last time (failed under load 1m from home) - strong fuel smell etc.

So the comments from others that they fail at the same time would be supported by my case. My problem is my shop will only install ones they get direct from BMW at 250 a piece. So I'll try to do it myself and consider the NRW filter (assuming the engine isn't toast, I'll be doing well to get away with this twice !)

[spammysammich]

You need to stop throwing parts at that car until you can get it bore scoped or at least compression checked. The more you run with a scored cylinder or bent rod the more catastrophic your failure will be. If it were me, no more driving until I knew the condition of the block.

[jvictormp]

Originally Posted by BashBosh

Me again

Another failure today. Car on way to shop but the exact same situation as last time (failed under load 1m from home) - strong fuel smell etc.

So the comments from others that they fail at the same time would be supported by my case. My problem is my shop will only install ones they get direct from BMW at 250 a piece. So I'll try to do it myself and consider the NRW filter (assuming the engine isn't toast, I'll be doing well to get away with this twice !)

spammysandwich sounds right, I think you're at high risk of losing money.

We don't know the dynamics of these injector failures, but we do know that when one fails, others do follow.

One thing that is remarkable is that we don't hear much about injector failure leaving the engine alive. It's like lottery odds, if you won it once (your engine is fine after first inj failure, supposedly), you obviously shoudn't throw the entire prize in the next game.

My suggestion: stop the car, get 8 new bosch injectors (including the first one you changed). You can find it in links posted above.

Maybe inspect for wall scratches/bent rods? I don't know, I think you will need a used engine if something bad has already happened, so let it live, hope for the best.

Don't try to start engine without solving the issue. That's what killed my engine (I was going to be one the lottery winners if I didn't, because I got my hydrolock from that).

About the filter, we don't have proofs of its efficacy in the injector failure prevention, but it's so cheap and logical that we just can't figure why not.

[IamFODI]

Originally Posted by jvictormp

About the filter, we don't have proofs of its efficacy in the injector failure prevention, but it's so cheap and logical that we just can't figure why not.

Completely agree with the rest of what you said.

The "why not" is

1. More possible leak points

2. Filter has to be changed at some interval, and we don't know what that interval is; don't want to change too frequently because each change introduces a risk of leaks / dirt ingress, and don't want to change too infrequently because it might clog

Not saying it's a bad idea, but I'd want to make sure it actually did something worthwhile before adding it.

[jvictormp]

Originally Posted by IamFODI

Completely agree with the rest of what you said.

The "why not" is

1. More possible leak points

2. Filter has to be changed at some interval, and we don't know what that interval is; don't want to change too frequently because each change introduces a risk of leaks / dirt ingress, and don't want to change too infrequently because it might clog

Not saying it's a bad idea, but I'd want to make sure it actually did something worthwhile before adding it.

Can't say you're wrong on item 1, I've faced some undesired events here, although my method is different from NRW and quite unique, since I use additional fuel hoses and all events were hose-related. My fault on all of them.

Item 2 I see a little different, because your ballparking can be the totality of every other car in the world.

They all have similar change intervals, never more than 20.000km, never less then 10.000km. They all stand the risk of contaminants during the change, probably calculated as "irrelevant", otherwise there would be much to be told about "fuel filter change procedure", but instead it's just a plug and play service.

I've changed my method a little because of something I discovered, I'll detail in next post.

[jvictormp]

So, I went to change the filter because it's been 4.000km and when I was inspecting the inside, I suspected of the glue aspect and thought, "well is this glue good to be there?"

When I pushed it with the finger, it broke down in pieces. I mean, it was not dropping pieces yet, but I discovered it was very sensible to start dropping, for maybe a sudden pressure change?

Then I decided to crack open an OEM filter, removed my daily car filter for that (Toyota), and saw that the glue aspect is completely different, very clean and strong.

After that, I stopped the car and waited until my new alternative filter came in. The Hengst H490WK.

It's used in Volvo >2010 gas engines, supports 15 bar pressure and have quick release coupling.

By the way, the Toyota filter is very dirty because it has more than 20.000km on it and uses regular gas, while the M3 aliexpress filter is clean and had only 4.000km on it of top tier fuel (Petrobras Podium).

[BashBosh]

I'm back on the road. Replaced the other 7. Scoping and leak down were all fine - so I've dodged the bullet twice. I'll get oil analysis at next change as perhaps the road bearings got trashed (they are new bearings so perhaps the extra clearance saved me).

One other thing I've pondered after 2 consecutive failures. I have a tendency to run low on fuel and had recently gotten to a couple of refills at ~16gallons. I wonder if that is bad practice and dredging up stuff in the tank (of course the fuel filter should catch it I realize).

I'll be putting in the NRW filter in asap.

[jvictormp]

Originally Posted by BashBosh

I'm back on the road. Replaced the other 7. Scoping and leak down were all fine - so I've dodged the bullet twice. I'll get oil analysis at next change as perhaps the road bearings got trashed (they are new bearings so perhaps the extra clearance saved me).

One other thing I've pondered after 2 consecutive failures. I have a tendency to run low on fuel and had recently gotten to a couple of refills at ~16gallons. I wonder if that is bad practice and dredging up stuff in the tank (of course the fuel filter should catch it I realize).

I'll be putting in the NRW filter in asap.

Good news, congrats 👏🏽!!

Good you mentioned the oil analysis, but you don't need to worry about the bearings, they should be fine, the problem is the oil itself, that could have gotten contaminated (excess of fuel going to the sump by cyl wall). You should do an oil change.

I had my injector failure when I refilled with top tier gas when previous owner only used regular gas. Not the same case you mentioned but definitely related as both have to do with old dirt in the tank.

Should the suction filter hold the dirt? I don't believe. If it should, would you think it would still be in good shape after all these years? It would definitely have gone saturated much time ago. I think it just holds big solids that could accidentally get in the tank.

[BashBosh]

I had heard that the fuel can wash down and also damage the bearings. But hopefully good there.

Good advice on the Oil, my shop had done that for me at the time of replacing the injectors.

[IamFODI]

Originally Posted by BashBosh

I had heard that the fuel can wash down and also damage the bearings. But hopefully good there.

Fuel itself won't damage the bearings. What it might do is compromise the oil's performance such that the bearings won't have the protection they want. As long as you didn't drive very hard or abuse the car with that level of fuel dilution, I'd imagine you'll be fine.

[BimmerRob08]

I’m not fully educated on fuel composition and long term times (2-3 months) in garage as I don’t drive it daily, how import is fuel stabilizers in preventing a clogged or stuck injector. My understanding is an injector can stick open or closed due to sludge/contaminents/debrie, but how exactly does stabilizers help the fuel from getting dirty? Or is old fuel prone to clogging injectors? I’ve got a full set I’ll be installing soon along with TA, and other components to refresh the engine as iota at 100,000.

[Assimilator1]

Originally Posted by BashBosh

I'm back on the road. Replaced the other 7. Scoping and leak down were all fine - so I've dodged the bullet twice. I'll get oil analysis at next change as perhaps the road bearings got trashed (they are new bearings so perhaps the extra clearance saved me).

One other thing I've pondered after 2 consecutive failures. I have a tendency to run low on fuel and had recently gotten to a couple of refills at ~16gallons. I wonder if that is bad practice and dredging up stuff in the tank (of course the fuel filter should catch it I realize).

I'll be putting in the NRW filter in asap.

It's a myth that running low can somehow pull in more dirt, the fuel pump draws from a well (a recess) in the bottom of the tank anyway, so fuel is always being pulled from the lowest point (to prevent fuel starvation going up/down hills or hard braking or acceleration). Running low makes no difference to that.

If you actually run out of a fuel though, you could argue any dirt in the tank would get concentrated and drawn up in one go, that wouldn't be good! But bear in mind the filter will catch any harmful size particles (like you said). If the filter got saturated with dirt over time, then this would cause fuel flow problems under high load and RPM first.

I think the only real question mark about the filter, is that are they prone to breaking up as they get old?
That surely would've been answered by older cars? These types of tank filters have been around for over 20 years!

[jvictormp]

Originally Posted by BimmerRob08

I’m not fully educated on fuel composition and long term times (2-3 months) in garage as I don’t drive it daily, how import is fuel stabilizers in preventing a clogged or stuck injector. My understanding is an injector can stick open or closed due to sludge/contaminents/debrie, but how exactly does stabilizers help the fuel from getting dirty? Or is old fuel prone to clogging injectors? I’ve got a full set I’ll be installing soon along with TA, and other components to refresh the engine as iota at 100,000.

I don't know about gasoline, but in diesel engines here in Brazil, due to bio-diesel dilution getting greater overtime, we are having trouble with some engines due to sludge formation (not dirt exactly, but kind of a separation of substances in the diesel, oxidation of the fuel itself). Not in months, but in days.

People are solving that problem here by using diesel stabilizers like Almax (VW).

About gasoline, the only thing I know here is that regular gas should be consumed before 3 months, while top tier gas has that time extended to 6 months. If it has anything with injector failure like diesel does, I don't know.