von_zoom wroteYes, with the proper tools and knowledge it's fastIs that for all four corners? Thanks
vz
von_zoom wroteThe DIY is pretty good...give yourself plenty of time for the first times through though, maybe an hour at least as you need to figure things out. Be careful of the brake sensor clips - they are easy to lose. Make sure you have zip ties handy too!Is that for all four corners? Thanks
vz
mastek wroteCome on that is so far from the truth. There are many cars that can be tracked hard completely stock. Many P cars, most F cars, many Corvettes, etc., etc. Also for the umpteenth time - NO OTHER CAR THIS MAGAZINE TESTED HAS EVER HAD A CATASTROPHIC BRAKE FAILURE.no matter how much success a journalist or pro racer or amateur has had at a track with an OE setup -- you should ALWAYS UPGRADE TO TRACK PADS & HIGHER TEMP FLUID before taking ANY car to the race track. period.
If you want to track = you must upgrade the brake system = or risk failure/fade/sudden loss of stopping power.
lucid wroteYes under straight line testing, but not at the track when the catastrophic failure happened.Anyway, going back to the nuances of the “non-progressive” nature of the brake failure, which is what you are interested in discussing, I’ll point a few other observations the magazine made in the post-track test that indicate there were significant warnings in all 3 configurations they tested:
1. OEM configuration (as I referenced in my previous post): fade warning.
lucid wroteI suppose sometimes it might, but other times it clearly does not. We have evidence of both.2. The Nismo setup does not provide any warning prior to brake failure when punished?
lucid wroteAs minor as this effort is it is also beyond the scope of what 99% of journalists will do and what 99%+ of consumers will do. Grab your car, maybe add some tires and head to the track. I don't think it is at all fair to expect folks to do this. Most folks just don't have the ability nor understanding. Does that mean they shouldn't have a bit of fun on the track?I have criticized their judgment by saying they should have at least checked the MOT of the pads and the fluid before taking it to the track; based on these data, a mildly upgraded setup should have saved the car during their test.
lucid wroteAgreed.You are criticizing the brake system by saying it should not fail in a non-progressive manner on or off the track. My response to that is that there are unanswered questions as the system has given some type of warning during the post-failure tests, and there are other anecdotal examples of other cars (the M3) failing without warning on a track, and the non-progressive nature of the Nismo failure—if that was indeed the case as we have no way of verifying how it actually failed—might be related to its oem pads and fluids not being on par with other oem equipment.
lucid wroteOne data point is enough for me under cases of stock vehicles and non-pro drivers (which is plenty safe to assume about common car rag journalists. See my comments above about what can really be expected from folks.I will agree with your assertion, which may very well be true, and treat it as a conclusion when and if the unanswered questions are answered. I have no issue with joining you and pointing a finger at Nissan when there is conclusive evidence, so this is not about me defending a car company. I could care less. My main criticism has been that the accident could have been easily avoided if due process had been observed. We do seem to be on different wavelengths indeed, and I hope that this long post bridges that gap somewhat.
swamp2 wroteI dont recommend it -- no matter WHO TELLS YOU IT'S OKCome on that is so far from the truth. There are many cars that can be tracked hard completely stock. Many P cars, most F cars, many Corvettes, etc., etc. Also for the umpteenth time - NO OTHER CAR THIS MAGAZINE TESTED HAS EVER HAD A CATASTROPHIC BRAKE FAILURE.
Gearhead999s wroteI dare say you've seen Chris Harris of Autocar compare his own stock M3 with a Nissan GT-R & Porsche 911 GT3 on YouTube?The one question that I have to ask,do we know of any cars that are 100%stock(stock pads)that have had a brake failure on track?Sure there are Juniors'& Lucids but they had upgrades and in my opinion the failures were not related to the stock braking system but to aftermarket brake pads which overtaxed the system thermally.
The stock system gives tons of warning when it is being used too hard which in my opinion that is what you want for a novice so brake management skills can be learned.I am not saying that upgrades should not be done but are not as critical as some people would try to make you beleive for new or occasional lappers.
Seadog wroteNoI dare say you've seen Chris Harris of Autocar compare his own stock M3 with a Nissan GT-R & Porsche 911 GT3 on YouTube?
Gearhead999s wroteNot sure if the link below will work, if not it's easy to find on YouTube. A good example of how the stock brakes perform on a track.No
FruitCake wroteThis was my experience as well. I ran stock rotors, pads and fluid last year for 6 or so track days. I found the brakes stood up fine with a little bit of self preservation - generally I would just ease off the throttle a second or two before applying the brakes. They became very predictable and manageable. Even at Calabogie where we ran 30 min sessions and it can be very hard on the brakes there.just got back from Streets of Willow Springs last week and I thought the stock brakes with stock pads were decent after the 1st session?
I did not pust it super hard and was easy on braking but fade was pretty predictable and manageable.
swamp2 wroteWell, that straight line test seems brutal to me. I quickly ran some basic numbers on kinetic energy loss based on brake zone and corner entry speed on two tracks that I know somewhat well, LRP and WGI. I was pretty liberal with the entry speeds.Yes under straight line testing, but not at the track when the catastrophic failure happened.
All other numbers you refer to are under controlled circumstances ex post facto.
Seadog wroteIt was still stopping but it gave lots of warning as he said on the previous lap.Yes there is room for improvement which I do not think that anybody disagrees with.I dare say you've seen Chris Harris of Autocar compare his own stock M3 with a Nissan GT-R & Porsche 911 GT3 on YouTube?
Gearhead999s wroteBig +1.The one question that I have to ask,do we know of any cars that are 100%stock(stock pads)that have had a brake failure on track?Sure there are Juniors'& Lucids but they had upgrades and in my opinion the failures were not related to the stock braking system but to aftermarket brake pads which overtaxed the system thermally.
The stock system gives tons of warning when it is being used too hard which in my opinion that is what you want for a novice so brake management skills can be learned.I am not saying that upgrades should not be done but are not as critical as some people would try to make you beleive for new or occasional lappers.
Gearhead999s wroteThere is no question OEM M3 brakes provide warning. The question is if that is a consequence of the higher quality OEM pad and fluid BMW uses or not. The M3 system is flawed as well in the sense that it is not fade-proof as it lacks adequate cooling.The one question that I have to ask,do we know of any cars that are 100%stock(stock pads)that have had a brake failure on track?Sure there are Juniors'& Lucids but they had upgrades and in my opinion the failures were not related to the stock braking system but to aftermarket brake pads which overtaxed the system thermally.
The stock system gives tons of warning when it is being used too hard which in my opinion that is what you want for a novice so brake management skills can be learned.I am not saying that upgrades should not be done but are not as critical as some people would try to make you beleive for new or occasional lappers.
Gearhead999s wroteI'm sure there are cases out there of 100% OE brake systems that were pushed hard at the track and faded so badly that the driver had an accident due to the severe fade .... As far as 'complete failures' = probably less likely.The one question that I have to ask,do we know of any cars that are 100%stock(stock pads)that have had a brake failure on track?Sure there are Juniors'& Lucids but they had upgrades and in my opinion the failures were not related to the stock braking system but to aftermarket brake pads which overtaxed the system thermally.
The stock system gives tons of warning when it is being used too hard which in my opinion that is what you want for a novice so brake management skills can be learned.I am not saying that upgrades should not be done but are not as critical as some people would try to make you beleive for new or occasional lappers.
Jaypod wroteSame experience for me. Lifting a couple of seconds before applying the brakes makes a huge difference.This was my experience as well. I ran stock rotors, pads and fluid last year for 6 or so track days. I found the brakes stood up fine with a little bit of self preservation - generally I would just ease off the throttle a second or two before applying the brakes. They became very predictable and manageable. Even at Calabogie where we ran 30 min sessions and it can be very hard on the brakes there.
When I put my BBK on a few weeks ago, the tech couldnt believe how well my pads and rotors looked all things considered.
mastek wroteYou must be brutal on equipment!The only time that I have ever seen brake parts melt was at the the Montreal GP track in the support races 18 years ago and that usually happened to the mid to tail end guys who overused their brakes.The guys who ran at the front of the field usually had brakes at the end of our one hour races.Yes I would love to have a BBK but they are not needed in order to go quick at a trackday or even racing.Often people install them to overcome the lack of skills that they possess in utilizing the braking that already exists in most modern cars.I'm sure there are cases out there of 100% OE brake systems that were pushed hard at the track and faded so badly that the driver had an accident due to the severe fade .... As far as 'complete failures' = probably less likely.
Personally, I have never tracked a car with an 100% OE brakes setup - and I probably never will.
When I took my e90m3 out to the track for the 1st time, I upgraded to PFC01 pads, Motul 600 and SS Lines.
Being aware of Junior's Brake issues at the track, I was sure to monitor them before, during and after each session --
After two 20 minute sessions, the paint (or coating) on the OE Front Calipers started to have boil bubbles and the half of the rotor's cross-drilled holes had filled with a combo of melted rotor and pad. Also, the caliper's slider bolt plastic and rubber caps had melted together, so I had a hard time changing pads later. That was my experience.
It is likely (as is being reported here by some members) that you CAN go out and use the 100% OE Brakes at a track and not crash -- but if you are going to a track to drive your car, you are doing so to drive it harder then you do on the street, in a safer environment... and chances are you might start to get quicker and quicker ... and if your 'in-tune' with the car you will notice a drop-off in brake performance.
Point is -- there are too many variables involved - one driver is faster - another driver is harder on the brakes - another driver already had boiled fluid - another one was slower - - - In the end, WHY RISK ANY OF THAT??
Your driving a $70k Sports Car - and your taking it to the track - spend a few hundred bucks and get pads and change the fluid.
WTF is the BIG DEAL??
Gearhead999s wroteChris Harris of Autocar magazine is a well respected test driver and he cooked the stock set up after only 2 laps…You must be brutal on equipment!The only time that I have ever seen brake parts melt was at the the Montreal GP track in the support races 18 years ago and that usually happened to the mid to tail end guys who overused their brakes.The guys who ran at the front of the field usually had brakes at the end of our one hour races.Yes I would love to have a BBK but they are not needed in order to go quick at a trackday or even racing.Often people install them to overcome the lack of skills that they possess in utilizing the braking that already exists in most modern cars.
Gearhead999s wroteI see - so Junior (who had the same OE brake fail experience) and I are 'over-using' the brakes and we got BBK's to compensate our lack of ability? hmmmYou must be brutal on equipment!The only time that I have ever seen brake parts melt was at the the Montreal GP track in the support races 18 years ago and that usually happened to the mid to tail end guys who overused their brakes.The guys who ran at the front of the field usually had brakes at the end of our one hour races.Yes I would love to have a BBK but they are not needed in order to go quick at a trackday or even racing.Often people install them to overcome the lack of skills that they possess in utilizing the braking that already exists in most modern cars.
mastek wroteAs far as Junior goes,there is a huge difference in dealing with a 1000 lb formula car vs our 3600 lb cars.I see - so Junior (who had the same OE brake fail experience) and I are 'over-using' the brakes and we got BBK's to compensate our lack of ability? hmmm
I can't speak for Junior as he is only a "Formula 3 Champion" and no where near the back of the field (unless he's lapping it).
And I am no where near a "Champion" of any kind, but usually post the fastest lap times out of all BMW's (or car that doesn't get there on a trailer) at HPDE's and have some w2w racing experiences that yielded a few podiums.
The point your making is? go ahead and RACE on the OE Brakes? go ahead and run in the fastest HPDE group with the OE setup? ... because if your having brake problems with the OE system, you are 'over-using' your brakes and you dont need a BBK on this car - you need skills.
Did I get that right??
Regardless of your opinion -- I stick to my statement about this or ANY OE brake system and track use.
