Low end torque starting to bug anybody else?

Hi all.

long time bmw guy and love my e90 m3. had it for 15 mos now and love it. when driving aggressive, the engine is phenominal. however i can never seem to drive the car "normal" since you need to rev the motor 4k+ since that's when it comes alive.

driving 550i and 335i the other day, i have to admit, it was refreshing to have all that smooth power down low. yes, i know, its not the visceral experience the m3 offers on top end, however it was nice nonetheless.

anybody else feeling this way?

yes i agree

I definitely agree.

Yeah it's been irritating me. I didn't know, however, if it was purely a cause of having DCT or not.

I drove a friend's 328i and even that seemed like it had more low end torque initially (1/2 joking)!

I agree but have taken to using the m button almost all the time. I know it only sharpens the throttle response but it makes the car feel a little faster down low.

Once you get over 3000 rpm its Ok though - it making almost as much torque as a 335 at 2850 rpm. I find I spend alot of time cruising between 3000 and 4000 rpm. Its as quick as anything out there once the revs are up.

Its just meant to be driven differently.

MojorisinM3 wrote

Hi all.

long time bmw guy and love my e90 m3. had it for 15 mos now and love it. when driving aggressive, the engine is phenominal. however i can never seem to drive the car "normal" since you need to rev the motor 4k+ since that's when it comes alive.

driving 550i and 335i the other day, i have to admit, it was refreshing to have all that smooth power down low. yes, i know, its not the visceral experience the m3 offers on top end, however it was nice nonetheless.

anybody else feeling this way?

You have low down torque...more than the others you mention at over 2,500 rpms. Torque is measured at the ground after engine torque has been multiplied by the gearbox gears, rear diff, and rear wheel. You also have a car via the LSD which assures the power is transmitted to the road far more efficiently, and a clutch that can handle the power. Bottom line is use a lower gear and drive the car right, or get the 335i so you can drive semi-spirited with minimal effort. Remember what the turbos provide for at low rpms are lost at higher rpms when engine torque drops like a brick (starting at 5,000 rpms to redline).

Does anyone make a rear diff ratio change for the E9X M3 yet? For sure the E46 M3s are geared too tall which helps emissions and fuel economy, but makes for less inspired grunt. Switching to a 3.91 rear diff from the 3.62 is the perfect choice without going overboard and trading grunt for traction. The rear diff swap is good for a half-second improvement in 0-62. And roll on acceleration and throttle response is improved dramatically. That's how important gearing is.

jbeene wrote

Once you get over 3000 rpm its Ok though - it making almost as much torque as a 335 at 2850 rpm. I find I spend alot of time cruising between 3000 and 4000 rpm. Its as quick as anything out there once the revs are up.

Sorry, but this is an example of how little people understand about how the engine and gearing together create driving dynamics and affect acceleration. To speak to engine torque character alone without consideration to gearing is worthless when making comparisons to other cars as above. The M3 is making exponentially more torque at 2,500 rpms to redline than the 335i, which is why it's quicker. Not engine torque alone, but the total torque that matters.

I agree its missing some, but doesnt really bother me.....yet....once it does I'll try fixing with some performance mods

MojorisinM3 wrote

Hi all.

long time bmw guy and love my e90 m3. had it for 15 mos now and love it. when driving aggressive, the engine is phenominal. however i can never seem to drive the car "normal" since you need to rev the motor 4k+ since that's when it comes alive.

driving 550i and 335i the other day, i have to admit, it was refreshing to have all that smooth power down low. yes, i know, its not the visceral experience the m3 offers on top end, however it was nice nonetheless.

anybody else feeling this way?

This car has very little low end torque BONE STOCK. (especially with DCT in 2nd gear)

Get a supercharger, or mod the car with every NA bolt-on mod (+ tune) to boost the torque output of the engine.

It will come alive if you do either one of these two things. (promise)

I don't mind it at all. I think it has plenty of torque for daily driving. When driving in the twisties or on the track, the car is not at low RPM's and its character at high RPM's is very satisfying.

MojorisinM3 wrote

however i can never seem to drive the car "normal" since you need to rev the motor 4k+ since that's when it comes alive.

Define 'normal'. The car has plenty of performance below 4K, and I never use more than that for my day to day driving, which is what I'd describe as 'normal'. This is no S2000, which truly feels lethargic below 4K rpm.

At any rate, if you wanted a ton of bottom-end torque, you needed either a large displacement V8 or a F.I. engine, not an M3. A test drive should have revealed that . Very happy with mine .

could always be better right?

That's exactly why I passed on the M3 and purchased the 335d which for everyday city driving is the ultimate car:

"On the dyno, we found out why the BMW felt so fast. Rated at 265 hp and 425 lb-ft at the crank, the little 3.0L inline-six in the 335d actually made 258 hp and 421 lb-ft at the wheels, making the crankshaft numbers closer to 300 hp and 525 lb-ft."

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/0912dp_2009_bmw_335d/diesel_engine.html

The 36 MPG average that I'm getting is a bonus.

It bothered me at 1201 miles. I thought the car was a defect. I had to put the 3.62 gears in it in order to keep the car. And no joke, the 328 loaner i had did feel faster from 0-9 mph, sorry!

Solution: Forced Induction.

Lemans_Blue_M wrote

This car has very little low end torque BONE STOCK. (especially with DCT in 2nd gear)

Little torque...compared to what? And don't compare engine torque specs as I'll make you regret it!

What does DCT have to do with anything? Besides, the DCT M3 is quicker than the 6MT and it also makes it faster to downshift then push up the throttle to maximize acceleration.

I agree if the m3 had 450 hp 360 trq i would be driving one.

We've been through this several times in several threads. The car has plenty of torque above 2000 rpm thanks to its relatively aggressive gearing which its wide rev range allows for, but you need to use the pedal. Part-throttle response might seem weak, but why use part throttle if you want to go fast? Actually, the car has so much torque at the wheels that I think it is pretty much useless on the street unless you want to get arrested or kill someone. There are various comparison charts published on this in the forum based on actual wtq numbers. I agree with MVF4Rrider though as in it depends on what the basis for comparison is. Of course, there are cars out there with more wtq than the E92 M3, but that doesn't mean the M3 is low on torque or anything.

mixxer wrote

I agree if the m3 had 450 hp 360 trq i would be driving one.

Riiiiight...

lucid wrote

We've been through this several times in several threads. The car has plenty of torque above 2000 rpm thanks to its relatively aggressive gearing which its wide rev range allows for, but you need to use the pedal. Part-throttle response might seem weak, but why use part throttle if you want to go fast? Actually, the car has so much torque at the wheels that I think it is pretty much useless on the street unless you want to get arrested or kill someone. There are various comparison charts published on this in the forum based on actual wtq numbers.

Exactly... the beauty of this car is that it is smooth and tractable in daily driving situations yet extremely fast when you want or need it. Just rev it up...

I personally find it uselessly fast in over 95% of driving situations.

MojorisinM3 wrote

Hi all.

long time bmw guy and love my e90 m3. had it for 15 mos now and love it. when driving aggressive, the engine is phenominal. however i can never seem to drive the car "normal" since you need to rev the motor 4k+ since that's when it comes alive.

driving 550i and 335i the other day, i have to admit, it was refreshing to have all that smooth power down low. yes, i know, its not the visceral experience the m3 offers on top end, however it was nice nonetheless.

anybody else feeling this way?

I said roughly the same thing a few months ago and quite a few people really disliked the suggestion. It's funny how people opinions have changed with so many now in agreement.

That's why I think the next M3 will be received so well.

MVF4Rrider wrote

Does anyone make a rear diff ratio change for the E9X M3 yet? For sure the E46 M3s are geared too tall which helps emissions and fuel economy, but makes for less inspired grunt. Switching to a 3.91 rear diff from the 3.62 is the perfect choice without going overboard and trading grunt for traction. The rear diff swap is good for a half-second improvement in 0-62. And roll on acceleration and throttle response is improved dramatically. That's how important gearing is.

Dinan makes them.

footie wrote

I said roughly the same thing a few months ago and quite a few people really disliked the suggestion. It's funny how people opinions have changed with so many now in agreement.

Who changed his mind Foot based on the limited responses to this thread so far?

footie wrote

That's why I think the next M3 will be received so well.

By whom exactly? The folks who never really floor the thing and make comparisons on that basis (I am not saying that has anything to do with the OP just to be clear)? Or by folks who normally drive 600hp Vipers?

Don't get me wrong, there are things that are "wrong" with this car, but this really is not one of them IMO.