Paragon Performance BBK from EAS

amg6975 wrote

I do have pictures but don't want to share until after they announce it. It has a cross brace like the bottom one, and has a lot more meat in the caliper body itself. I don't have scientific numbers or anything but it's obvious they did more than just make their standard caliper wider, they put some thought into it.

Kind of looks halfway between the old AP design, and the newer designs. I think they look great and are definitely a step towards creating their own products vs rebranding old AP stuff.

What the heck?

How did amg get banned? He said he was looking into becoming a vendor not that he was one

F4rmost wrote

What the heck?

How did amg get banned? He said he was looking into becoming a vendor not that he was one

That’s quite shocking that he got banned. I know he was doing a lot behind the scenes to start selling e9x M items for track and performance driving. I sure hope it wasn’t due to another vendor trying to eliminate competition. I did see the other day where accounts get automatically flagged for appearing to be a bot but once a few people respond stating the posts were from an actual person then the flags go away. It’ll really suck if people checked the bot box not knowing what it was. This is a big loss to the community. I hope it’s not a permanent ban. A three-month ban would still suck but at least that means he’ll be back.

The new Paragon six-piston 25 mm-thick pad caliper looks more like a brute force design than a truly optimized new caliper design that departs from the copied 30yo+ AP Racing caliper designs. An “X” caliper bridge would improve lateral shear stiffness although the mounting bosses aren’t thick enough to really add lateral shear and bending stiffness to the design. I hope the new caliper has a significant increase in stiffness relative to their existing caliper that uses 18 mm-thick pads because…I’m interested in seeing what the weight of the new caliper with 25 mm-thick pads is compared to the weight of their existing caliper with 18 mm-thick pads. I hope its only option isn’t a 390 mm-OD, 36 mm-thick rotor, forcing the use of 19” diameter wheels. A max 378 or 380 mm-OD rotor, or even just a 372 mm-OD rotor, is all that’s needed for the e9x M. PFC and AP Racing 372 mm-OD rotor performance has already demonstrated you don’t need anything larger in OD. Also, curious to see what the price increase is for the new caliper.

M3SQRD wrote

The new Paragon six-piston 25 mm-thick pad caliper looks more like a brute force design than a truly optimized new caliper design that departs from the copied 30yo+ AP Racing caliper designs. An “X” caliper bridge would improve lateral shear stiffness although the mounting bosses aren’t thick enough to really add lateral shear and bending stiffness to the design. I hope the new caliper has a significant increase in stiffness relative to their existing caliper that uses 18 mm-thick pads because…I’m interested in seeing what the weight of the new caliper with 25 mm-thick pads is compared to the weight of their existing caliper with 18 mm-thick pads. I hope its only option isn’t a 390 mm-OD, 36 mm-thick rotor, forcing the use of 19” diameter wheels. A max 378 or 380 mm-OD rotor, or even just a 372 mm-OD rotor, is all that’s needed for the e9x M. PFC and AP Racing 372 mm-OD rotor performance has already demonstrated you don’t need anything larger in OD. Also, curious to see what the price increase is for the new caliper.

It looks like ~$3650 for the base kit and uses 378 x 36mm rotors.

F4rmost wrote

It looks like ~$3650 for the base kit and uses 378 x 36mm rotors.

It’s interesting that Paragon’s website doesn’t have the 036 front brake kit listed yet but a vendor does have it listed

So I was close on the price of the new 036 front brake kit at $750 more than the original 035 front brake kit. I hope they actually test measured the stiffness of the 036 brake caliper. The accuracy of the FEM is only as accurate as the modeling approach and assumed boundary conditions. As a structures lead/SME, I’ve reviewed several 1000s of FE models and, if I had to provide a guess on the number of accurate static and dynamic models, I’d say it’s in the range of

So any update on this PA036 brake kit? Still not even listed on Paragon's own website...

RugbyBro wrote

So any update on this PA036 brake kit? Still not even listed on Paragon's own website...

I’ve seen a few vendors showing the pa036 front brake kit as a pre-order special and if 10 people buy a kit they’ll receive a 5% discount. I, too, find it interesting that Paragon doesn’t have it listed on their website as an option. I wonder if the new pa036 caliper design ended up having a lower stiffness than expected? It shouldn’t be a piston size or seal issue because you’d expect the pa036 to be identical to the pa035 for these design features.

M43ver wrote

I’ve seen a few vendors showing the pa036 front brake kit as a pre-order special and if 10 people buy a kit they’ll receive a 5% discount. I, too, find it interesting that Paragon doesn’t have it listed on their website as an option. I wonder if the new pa036 caliper design ended up having a lower stiffness than expected? It shouldn’t be a piston size or seal issue because you’d expect the pa036 to be identical to the pa035 for these design features.

That's me! As far as I know they are ready to go. BMW is not a large portion of Paragon's business so I don't think they are too motivated, but I have no idea why they haven't put the kit on their own site. I've been trying to champion them and GLOC in the BMW community as they are great products for a fair price.

I just changed the group buy to 5 orders by March 31st since I just got my sponsorship here sorted out. Additionally, buy a matching set of GLOC track pads and get 5% off instantly (I may expand this to any Paragon kit.)

amg6975 wrote

That's me! As far as I know they are ready to go. BMW is not a large portion of Paragon's business so I don't think they are too motivated, but I have no idea why they haven't put the kit on their own site. I've been trying to champion them and GLOC in the BMW community as they are great products for a fair price.

I just changed the group buy to 5 orders by March 31st since I just got my sponsorship here sorted out. Additionally, buy a matching set of GLOC track pads and get 5% off instantly (I may expand this to any Paragon kit.)

Any idea when they're going to release versions/brackets for other chassis? I'm really looking at these for my E46 rather than E92.

RugbyBro wrote

Any idea when they're going to release versions/brackets for other chassis? I'm really looking at these for my E46 rather than E92.

Should be available but let me double check.

RugbyBro wrote

Any idea when they're going to release versions/brackets for other chassis? I'm really looking at these for my E46 rather than E92.

The E46 version is available but special order so it's a 4-6 week lead time. The E9x and F8x kits are in stock and ready to go. All options are live on my site and included in the group buy.

Checking in on this thread to see how folks are getting on with their Paragon BBK's, especially those who have been tracking them. Any issues? Have they held up well? How's the wear? How have your found their (Winmax) pads to be? TIA!

PAM3Guy wrote

Checking in on this thread to see how folks are getting on with their Paragon BBK's, especially those who have been tracking them. Any issues? Have they held up well? How's the wear? How have your found their (Winmax) pads to be? TIA!

May be slightly biased but better than I would expected across the board to be frank. Pad wear has been very even across several different brands and compounds, which was my biggest fear. If the calipers were not stiff enough I would expect the pads to taper. Calipers still look great, rotors seem to be wearing/aging the same as the Girodiscs I have on the other car.

I have no complaints about the Winmax pads either. I think for a basic track pad they are great. They have been hard to get at times but they work well.

I've been working with a couple people who use Paragon/GLOC combinations HARD and all have little to complain about other than having all that extra money weighing their wallets down, from spending half what they would on AP/Alcon and expensive pads.

pirategenes wrote

I got the 378mm front kit installed last year and have 15 track days on it so far. It's excellent. I shared my fitment results on this site and provided to Paragon, which they list here with the kit:
https://paragonbrakes.com/track-performance-big-brake-kit-pa035-6-piston-m3-e90-e92-e93-1m-coupe-front/

Here's details on the pad compounds they offer:
https://paragonbrakes.com/paragon-brake-pad-compounds/

I run the R5 on track and P3 on street. Both are excellent. Happy to answer specific questions if you have any.

Cheers!

Thanks for the review earlier in the thread. I’m assuming the kit has held up well over the last year?

How is the pedal feel and bias compared to OEM? I know the kit is designed to be very close to OEM bias.

Which street pads would you compare the P3 to, and to which track pads would you compare the R5 pads? I have been running stoptech sport on the street and PFC08 on track and am curious how P3 and R5 would feel by comparison.

PAM3Guy wrote

Thanks for the review earlier in the thread. I’m assuming the kit has held up well over the last year?

How is the pedal feel and bias compared to OEM? I know the kit is designed to be very close to OEM bias.

Which street pads would you compare the P3 to, and to which track pads would you compare the R5 pads? I have been running stoptech sport on the street and PFC08 on track and am curious how P3 and R5 would feel by comparison.

Yes - it's been an incredible kit over the past two years of track use. I absolutely love it and it gives me so much confidence in braking zones. For context, I run in the advanced run group and do instructing for some clubs.

The thing that surprised me the most was how much of a difference it made when I added the rear Paragon kit to pair with the front. The feel and modulation went next level. I think it may be the difference in a fixed vs sliding caliper design - not sure - but the feel got WAY better and finesse brake release for trail braking was much easier to get just right.

I've never had an over-heating problem with this kit, but I have front and rear ducting that helps.

I'm not sure how to compare the P3 and R5 pads to other pads, since these are the only ones I have run with this kit. The R5's are fantastic on track, have good initial bite, and great feel. P3 I'd imagine are not really suitable for track, but I've never even tried just based on the pad specs. I've heard the R7 don't have as good modulation characteristics compared to the R5. So, I plan to stick to the R5's.

Hopefully this is helpful - it's really a great kit overall.

Cheers!

pirategenes wrote

Yes - it's been an incredible kit over the past two years of track use. I absolutely love it and it gives me so much confidence in braking zones. For context, I run in the advanced run group and do instructing for some clubs.

The thing that surprised me the most was how much of a difference it made when I added the rear Paragon kit to pair with the front. The feel and modulation went next level. I think it may be the difference in a fixed vs sliding caliper design - not sure - but the feel got WAY better and finesse brake release for trail braking was much easier to get just right.

I've never had an over-heating problem with this kit, but I have front and rear ducting that helps.

I'm not sure how to compare the P3 and R5 pads to other pads, since these are the only ones I have run with this kit. The R5's are fantastic on track, have good initial bite, and great feel. P3 I'd imagine are not really suitable for track, but I've never even tried just based on the pad specs. I've heard the R7 don't have as good modulation characteristics compared to the R5. So, I plan to stick to the R5's.

Hopefully this is helpful - it's really a great kit overall.

Cheers!

Awesome review. Thank you. Very helpful!

I assume the step change in feel and braking confidence was also significant when installing just the front kit first?

PAM3Guy wrote

Awesome review. Thank you. Very helpful!

I assume the step change in feel and braking confidence was also significant when installing just the front kit first?

Yes - very noticeable with just the front kit installed. The front alone erased any concerns I had in bigger braking zones and I think that increased comfort level allowed me to go faster. The feel improved for sure, but that was a couple years ago so maybe my memory is foggy about exactly how much. I just recall how striking the feel improvement was when adding the rear kit, which was more recent. That reaction may be due to my assumption (probably incorrect, in hindsight...) that adding rears would not make much of a feel difference.

Overall I'd say both are a big help on track and don't sleep on the rear kit if you decide to get the fronts.

pirategenes wrote

Yes - very noticeable with just the front kit installed. The front alone erased any concerns I had in bigger braking zones and I think that increased comfort level allowed me to go faster. The feel improved for sure, but that was a couple years ago so maybe my memory is foggy about exactly how much. I just recall how striking the feel improvement was when adding the rear kit, which was more recent. That reaction may be due to my assumption (probably incorrect, in hindsight...) that adding rears would not make much of a feel difference.

Overall I'd say both are a big help on track and don't sleep on the rear kit if you decide to get the fronts.

Awesome, thanks again. That gives me a lot more confidence in this kit.

What pads would you all suggest with this kit for mainly street/mountain switch backs, etc. no tracks around where I live to run it.

BimmerRob08 wrote

What pads would you all suggest with this kit for mainly street/mountain switch backs, etc. no tracks around where I live to run it.

Here's the pad specs so you can decide for your self:
https://paragonbrakes.com/paragon-brake-pad-compounds/

For your use case, I'd recommend the P3 pads.

Cheers!

Based on the feedback here, and my use case, I ordered the Paragon PA035 front BBK from Alcon Kits and am awaiting the arrival. Planning to do a few track days in a few weeks, so very psyched to try it out. If nothing else, looking forward to easier pad swaps up front!

FYI, for those considering the PA035 370mm kit, it will clear both the 220M and 359M front wheels, at least based on the template they provided.

PAM3Guy wrote

Based on the feedback here, and my use case, I ordered the Paragon PA035 front BBK from Alcon Kits and am awaiting the arrival. Planning to do a few track days in a few weeks, so very psyched to try it out. If nothing else, looking forward to easier pad swaps up front!

FYI, for those considering the PA035 370mm kit, it will clear both the 220M and 359M front wheels, at least based on the template they provided.

I haven't had any issues with my stock brakes, but I am also looking forward to easier pad swaps. lol

Do you or anyone have a clue if this kit fits over 18's?