Official S65 Injector Failure Thread

Redd wrote

NRW-Design has got an inline fuel filter coming soon.

Redd Concur on NRW inline fuel filter. Planned near-term PM/upgrade along with new Bosch injectors.

Actually, an early NRW products adapter; their valve covers with silicone grommets.
So-far ~3K of spirited driving - - no issues, leaks, all clean and pristine.

Redd wrote

NRW-Design has got an inline fuel filter coming soon.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CxV09HlJwLU/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

So with something like this could I just install it along with new injectors and be all set? Or would I have to also change the fuel pump and fuel filter in the gas tank?..

I just got an e92 with under 50k miles but seeing the other user above blow his engine due to this issue at 60k miles is making me want to err on the side of caution.

NRW fuel filter is a standalone mod. U don't need to change your fuel pump or fuel filter in the tank.

Bought & test installed NRW in line fuel filter, it’s high quality but the fitment is not OEM level given the tight space, filter bracket runs against the plastic ignition coil cover & the flexible fuel line to the rail needed to be relocated & twisted beyond my comfort level, also said rubber fuel line now sits closer/in the way of significant radiant heat from the driver side exhaust header.
I know some people have installed these & are happy, I personally wasn’t comfortable, so removed it.
Another thing is, the NRW or similar fuel filter should not be considered an alternative to replacing fuel injectors at regular intervals as they may already be clogging up as most cars have 50,000 miles or greater..
I wish the NRW filter were smaller in size, it would fit so much better..

Added ProjektAutoScott and AKJCCM3 injector>engine failures to the blown engines list.

fuddman wrote

On my 2013 M3, on different starts, I get different numbers of warnings on the dashboard - sometimes several warning lights, sometimes two, sometimes 1 and sometimes none. The one that always seems to be there is the SES light. The car then posts the message "Increased emissions!" With an exclamation mark, no less - like you bad, bad boy, you're screwing up mother earth.

In any case, this got me to thinking. What does "increased emissions" mean? To me it means there exists some kind of fixed emissions baseline in the car somewhere. In addition, something is constantly calculating the emissions generated by my car and going out the exhaust.

Then, the two are constantly compared somewhere in the car. That is, my generated emissions are compared to the baseline emission and if, for example, a ratio exceeds a certain amount, the SES light goes on.

Could it be that if that emissions ratio exceeds another predetermined value the car will be thrown into limp mode?

What I'm thinking is that perhaps there is nothing really wrong with the parts in your car. And the car could go on indefinitely. Except that someone has determined you are exceeding what they believe is the acceptable amount of emissions going out your back end. Therefore you and your car are assigned the limp mode.

In other words, you're not necessarily going into the limp mode because of a parts malfunction. But, for sure, you're going into the limp mode because you are exceeding an emissions standard programmed in the car.

I'm suggesting that when you begin to diagnose a limp mode, you start by assuming the computer (ECU?) in your car gave you the limp mode because of some emissions related problem it senses. Then look at the codes, especially look for the SES warning light.

But clearly something is going wrong or the emissions wouldn't be beyond specified limits, you need to get the codes read and sort it out before you have serious problems.

Year: 2019

Miles: 40,000 miles

Injector Failure symptoms: raw fuel smell, limp mode reduced power, rough idle.

Duration driven with symptoms: less than one kilometer, but I made another mistake that prevented me from saving that engine.

Secondary failure: hydrolock because of several attempts to start the engine and investigate. one of those startups end up in starter locking up, and con rod fatigued, then engine blew up after injectors were replaced. cylinder walls were in pristine condition.

Injector failure cause or theory: I bought the car far from home, and came driving it home, about 600 miles. previous owner always used bad (common) quality fuel. I got home, let the tank full of top tier gas, and went away for work for 2 weeks. after come back, at first ride it happened. do the math. common gas, high deposits. top tier gas, high cleaning.

That was the moment of the hydrolock:

jvictormp wrote

Year: 2019

Miles: 40,000 miles

Injector Failure symptoms: raw fuel smell, limp mode reduced power, rough idle.

Duration driven with symptoms: less than one kilometer, but I made another mistake that prevented me from saving that engine.

Secondary failure: hydrolock because of several attempts to start the engine and investigate. one of those startups end up in starter locking up, and con rod fatigued, then engine blew up after injectors were replaced. cylinder walls were in pristine condition.

Injector failure cause or theory: I bought the car far from home, and came driving it home, about 600 miles. previous owner always used bad (common) quality fuel. I got home, let the tank full of top tier gas, and went away for work for 2 weeks. after come back, at first ride it happened. do the math. common gas, high deposits. top tier gas, high cleaning.

That was the moment of the hydrolock:

Was fuel stabilizer ever used in the car? My theory is that people are letting the fuel sit in these cars way too long without adding stabilizer, especially the low mile examples, I add a few oz of stabilizer to any car I’m going to be letting sit over a week. My e36 would idle very rough after sitting a few weeks until I started running stabilizer and it fixed the issue. I’ve always ran it in my e92 that gets drove twice a month.

e92dud wrote

Was fuel stabilizer ever used in the car? My theory is that people are letting the fuel sit in these cars way too long without adding stabilizer, especially the low mile examples, I add a few oz of stabilizer to any car I’m going to be letting sit over a week. My e36 would idle very rough after sitting a few weeks until I started running stabilizer and it fixed the issue. I’ve always ran it in my e92 that gets drove twice a month.

No.

There has been 5 years since then, and never had any problems after that, always using top tier fuel. I work offshore in a regular basis, so the car runs for 3 weeks and sits for 2 weeks regularly.

Ugh, now I am thinking to do this as preventative maintenance and look into a fuel filter solution. Although seems to be a lesser issue than the RB's and my mechanic told me to not worry about it. Which those have a pretty small failure rate, so this might be even less of a failure rate in the grand scheme. Guess it's not an insta engine grenade as long as you recognize the problem and don't try to turn the motor over multiple times. Stuff like this makes me appreciate the simplicity of EV's... oh the horrors of belonging to a car forum, lol.

PiZauL wrote

Ugh, now I am thinking to do this as preventative maintenance and look into a fuel filter solution. Although seems to be a lesser issue than the RB's and my mechanic told me to not worry about it. Which those have a pretty small failure rate, so this might be even less of a failure rate in the grand scheme. Guess it's not an insta engine grenade as long as you recognize the problem and don't try to turn the motor over multiple times. Stuff like this makes me appreciate the simplicity of EV's... oh the horrors of belonging to a car forum, lol.

Think on NRW solution. I'd do it if it was easier to get it in Brazil, mostly because of the replacement element.

It's a pretty simple installation.

Yes, you might have a good chance to save the engine. All cases I've seen, driver insisted on keeping engine running. But you must have the discipline to be sure that, whatever misfire your engine faces, you will disassembly all the needed parts to get to the injectors and take them to a shop to check.

Yes, it may happen having the filter too, but I'm betting that the filter will reduce to close to zero that chance.

Had to do it my own way here. 10-micron filter running now.

May I add that, here in Brazil, the last three or four cases I heard of E9X losing engines were due to stuck injectors. Not a single one related to RBs. And not everyone here believes that RBs are a real problem. And no, I'm not an RB-denier. I'm running on BEs.

jvictormp wrote

Think on NRW solution. I'd do it if it was easier to get it in Brazil, mostly because of the replacement element.

It's a pretty simple installation.

Yes, you might have a good chance to save the engine. All cases I've seen, driver insisted on keeping engine running. But you must have the discipline to be sure that, whatever misfire your engine faces, you will disassembly all the needed parts to get to the injectors and take them to a shop to check.

Yes, it may happen having the filter too, but I'm betting that the filter will reduce to close to zero that chance.

Had to do it my own way here. 10-micron filter running now.

May I add that, here in Brazil, the last three or four cases I heard of E9X losing engines were due to stuck injectors. Not a single one related to RBs. And not everyone here believes that RBs are a real problem. And no, I'm not an RB-denier. I'm running on BEs.

I took a look at the filter on their site. Out of stock for now, but given BimmerMan33's review of it here I am skeptical of it as well. Might be creating a new problem down the road I'd imagine as it moves the fuel line closer to radiant heat from the header. I may just get a second set of injectors and throw them in, and clean the old set as a backup.

Edit: I did find this, might give it a try as it seems to be way lower profile. https://europowermotorsports.com/product/fuel-filter-kit-bmw-s65-s85/

jvictormp wrote

Think on NRW solution. I'd do it if it was easier to get it in Brazil, mostly because of the replacement element.

It's a pretty simple installation.

Yes, you might have a good chance to save the engine. All cases I've seen, driver insisted on keeping engine running. But you must have the discipline to be sure that, whatever misfire your engine faces, you will disassembly all the needed parts to get to the injectors and take them to a shop to check.

Yes, it may happen having the filter too, but I'm betting that the filter will reduce to close to zero that chance.

Had to do it my own way here. 10-micron filter running now.

May I add that, here in Brazil, the last three or four cases I heard of E9X losing engines were due to stuck injectors. Not a single one related to RBs. And not everyone here believes that RBs are a real problem. And no, I'm not an RB-denier. I'm running on BEs.

Do you know what fuel they'd been running them on?

Assimilator1 wrote

Do you know what fuel they'd been running them on?

Unfortunately no.

I know that one of them was a victim of fuel adulteration, that consists basically in mixing fuel with solvents, which I think would help loosening old deposits.

Result: scored cylinder.

I wonder what is the injector screen (if it exists) for in that case? I only can think that it doesn't exist, or just isn't enough.

OEMs do not generally put a 10 micron filter in the fuel system as it could relatively easily clog up & thereby necessitate frequent fuel filter service which adds to cost of ownership & that’s a big deal for manufacturers..
Also not all fuels are good quality, therefore over time & mileage most injectors will have some deposits clogging them & affecting the spray pattern resulting in decreased performance/mileage at the best & rare occurrence of sticking open..
In my personal opinion, use the best quality fuel, use cleaner additive every 3,000 miles AND replace or professionally bench clean injectors every 50,000 miles.
As we know, most European cars including BMWs do much better with preventative maintenence.
Also read up a few places about in-tank fuel pump materials degrading over time & small particles breaking off & possibly clogging injectors causing failure.. Not sure how true this is.. A few people had to replace their fuel pumps around 75-90,000 miles due to failing check valve causing hesitation with morning cold starts & some causing fuel smell from the rear of the car due to retaining ring cracking/other..
Not sure if we should be preemptively changing the fuel pumps around that mileage…?

I'm going to be checking my car's fuel filter.

Assimilator1 wrote

I'm going to be checking my car's fuel filter.

You know it's a shielded filter, right?

Assimilator1 wrote

I'm going to be checking my car's fuel filter.

As far as I know, the only factory fuel filter is located inside the fuel tank.
For all the effort & time required to get to it, might as well replace the fuel/transfer pump since the filter is integrated into the pump! That way you’ll have no worries for another 75,000 miles..

Except the pump's fine, so why change it (unless the filter is damaged and can't be replaced).

jvictormp wrote

You know it's a shielded filter, right?

No I didn't, not seen an M3 one so far, got a pic of one?

2008

Miles: 82k

Symptoms: Loss of power, white smoke, smell of fuel from exhaust. Came on at high RPM.

Miles Driven: <2 plus one short attempt to re-start.

Situation: Shop says #6 injector stuck open. Fuel in cylinder. Replacing to see if it fixes and then will replace the others. Wish me luck.

(I assume I should also do a compression test on #6 - what else ?)

BashBosh wrote

2008

Miles: 82k

Symptoms: Loss of power, white smoke, smell of fuel from exhaust. Came on at high RPM.

Miles Driven: <2 plus one short attempt to re-start.

Situation: Shop says #6 injector stuck open. Fuel in cylinder. Replacing to see if it fixes and then will replace the others. Wish me luck.

(I assume I should also do a compression test on #6 - what else ?)

I think the compression test is useless if you can do a boroscopic inspection.

If everything is fine in the inspection, you're good to go.

After changing the injectors, think about installing a fuel filter. There are some options here:
https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2101075

BashBosh wrote

2008

Miles: 82k

Symptoms: Loss of power, white smoke, smell of fuel from exhaust. Came on at high RPM.

Miles Driven: <2 plus one short attempt to re-start.

Situation: Shop says #6 injector stuck open. Fuel in cylinder. Replacing to see if it fixes and then will replace the others. Wish me luck.

(I assume I should also do a compression test on #6 - what else ?)

One important thing. Did you shutdown the engine or did it by itself?

Did you face something like this when trying to re-start?

That was a hydrolock. If you faced that, it's bad news for you, sorry. You may have bent or fatigued the conrod and it needs to be replaced anyway because you won't be able to inspect it without full disassemble.

I got 100,200 miles and original owner. Rod bearings done in last 900 miles. I’ve never had to use fuel stabilizer and as much as possible, I use Shell 91 or better when available. I live in a high altitude rural area and my car is mostly stored on a charger in my garage for the winter months. Next spring I’ll be doing a top end refurbishe job for the injectors, throttle actuators and a full TB clean. But I’m not planning on that till spring when it warms up. If the car sits all winter, should I still put the stabilizer in the tank? Even if not ran? A buddy up here where I live Is retired operator and told me that all the different fuel trucks that service this area and the different gas stations, ie. shell, Sinclair, Smith’s, all fill up at the same fuel point in Reno. So Is this a sales pitch that Shell is supposed to be better than some other fuel? Sounds crazy but that’s what he used to see while on the job. So if that is indeed true, then is 7/11 gas worse or better than shell for example?

My only experience with really good fuel was while I was stationed in Europe with this M3 (bought it through military program in England in 2008), was when I put on high flow CAT’s, before I was able to get DINAN Stage II, id get a check light for increased emissions while using gas on base. I spend 6 weeks with the car in Germany using fuel coupons at off base gas stations to include Agip, Q8, and other European stations and the entire time had no check lights. I get back to England and filled up on base and within a day, had the same check light. Of course now I don’t get it with the stage II. Anyway, is bad gas, bad gas at some stations vs other brand names? Bad gas to me Is one that is old as hell our contaminated. They all have detergents and other cleaning properties, as they advertise.