Let's compare oils

330indy wrote

edycol wrote

330indy wrote

edycol wrote

330indy wrote

gilberjj wrote

My thinking on this is simple. I buy the best oil money can buy because this car is not a DD for me. I only change the oil once a year.
I've run Redline in other vehicles in the past and I've never had a reason to doubt it's quality.
Troy Jeup recommends Redline 5w50, and he's built more S85 and S65 motors than anyone else in the USA. Good enough for me. https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1592340
From my research, there are plenty of good grade III, IV and V base stock oils. But true full-synthetic, grade V ester formulas are the best oils without any compromises (redline and motul). Expensive, but so is a motor...

Yep
Went 4+ years with Redline fill and low miles. Blackstone showed it was strong in TBN.
I have zero concerns about Redline in truly extended time OCIs.

Extended OCI is not RedLine cup of tea. It is not TBN, it is TAN.

You speculate. Redline is an optimal blend of Group 4&5. Do you speak as if it's all Group 5?
Show me a BSOA where Redline was in the red on TAN.
I have no concern with extended time/ low mile OCIs

The acidity level of brand new Redline oil is at level of some oils after 7k use.
You have MSDS provided by Redline where you have ester content. In Performance series it is almost 80%. If you don't have TAN in your UOA you are assuming at best what is going on. Regardless whether TBN is enough or not, TAN and TBN under no circumstances should overlap or TAN exceed TBN.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/tbn-and-tan-in-ester-oils-excellent-info.114241/

After 5 years TBN was 7.7
I sleep like a baby

I mean you can sleep however you want, and use Extra virgin olive oil for 10k, but TAN never should exceed TBN. You constantly pointing to TBN without knowing TAN.
I am just saying this for those actually willing to understand this.
And I know very well that discussion on BITOG. But this is the question that no one who gives these ridiculous explanations ever answer: why Redline cannot be approved? Simple is that oxidation is too high. If acidity is high and impacts performance, it is irrelevant where it comes from.

Did you read the BITOG thread?
High ZDDP, RE approvals

330indy wrote

Did you read the BITOG thread?
High ZDDP, RE approvals

Of course I did. But I am not sure you actually fallowing development of RL oils.
RL had huge overhaul of its lineup somewhere 2011 and again in 2015. ZDDP in all their regular Performance lineup is up to limits required by Porsche A40, MB229.3 and 229.5, BMW LL01, VW502.00.
There is no RL Performance oil since than with additives that are above those limits and are in line with other oils, sometimes lower (Mobil1 0W40).
The oxidation is the issue. There is no other way around it. The chromatography/mass spectrometry of RL oils shows much higher acidity than regular oils.
Other oils have that issue where a lot of easters are present. Mobil1 ESP 5W30 is not approved for current BMW LL04 as it contains around 10% esters and BMW in 2018 made oxidation requirements more ridiculous than they were.
I personally would use Redline any time. I have it in my gearbox, i have it in my differentials, I even have it in my Sienna minivan. But they ain't going to see change interval like regular fluids.

I went with Ravenol, previously use LM and Motul X8100. Reason is polyalphaolefin (PAO) based, polymer additives, low viscosity when cold, low viscosity when hot which helps with tight bearing clearance. Stable and doesn't change viscosity towards the end of the life. My track buddies use Ravenol, only oil they found to keep the temps down on the track.

https://www.blauparts.com/bmw-motor-oil-racing-10w-60-rss-5l.html

Update: Picked up an ordered G80 MT and this is a repost from another thread but appropriate here as well.

I talked with Dave Granquist at Redline Oil and
we had an in depth conversation.
He said the low budget oil analyses misread the oxygenated ester molecules, read as oxidation. He stated that they are polarized (esters) and the oxygen atoms make the ester attraction to the engine. Their oils don't suffer from premature oxidation and the readings are misleading. Also, regarding the correct oil for the new M3 / S58 engine __ it is the low ash Euro series high performance oil. Group 4/5 with the proper additive package. 5w30.
Soon the 0W30 will be added to Euro series.
so glad I called him today.
all set, having talked with the authority….
https://www.redlineoil.com/euro-series-5w30-motor-oil

I noticed Liqui-Moly's Race Tech GT1 formulation has been updated and none of their current specs match what's on the first page. Maybe others have been updated to new formulas as well?

https://pim.liqui-moly.de/pdf/en_US/liqui/43/P000342

Signature Wheel BMW wrote

I went with Ravenol, previously use LM and Motul X8100. Reason is polyalphaolefin (PAO) based, polymer additives, low viscosity when cold, low viscosity when hot which helps with tight bearing clearance. Stable and doesn't change viscosity towards the end of the life. My track buddies use Ravenol, only oil they found to keep the temps down on the track.

https://www.blauparts.com/bmw-motor-oil-racing-10w-60-rss-5l.html

Ravenol RSS 10W-60 racing oil is partner to ADAC GT masters, FIA F3 EUROPEAN Championship


and recommended by Ralf Schumacher.

Ximian wrote

Ravenol RSS 10W-60 racing oil is partner to ADAC GT masters, FIA F3 EUROPEAN Championship


and recommended by Ralf Schumacher.

Probably a brand ambassador. Doesn't mean much.

Remonster wrote

I noticed Liqui-Moly's Race Tech GT1 formulation has been updated and none of their current specs match what's on the first page. Maybe others have been updated to new formulas as well?

https://pim.liqui-moly.de/pdf/en_US/liqui/43/P000342

LM is junk, lower grade than OEM. HTHS is 3.5. Castrol HTHS is 5.0. So either use OEM Castrol, x8100, or Ravenol for track / aggressive driving. Reason are lowest viscosity cold and hot, and highest HTHS. Otherwise, Redline 5w50 is a good alternative for colder climate and track use. Redline 5w50 is the thickest of its weight, while being thinner than the thinnest 10w60.

Most important specs for our motors are thinnest viscosity of its class (bearing clearance) and HTHS (bearing protection). Everything else, not as important.

I hear a lot of "I've been using x for 2yrs, it's fine." Stick with OEM or find an oil that has the lowest viscosity and highest HTHS as OEM. Otherwise, don't move away if there's not improvements.

Signature Wheel BMW wrote

LM is junk, lower grade than OEM. HTHS is 3.5. Castrol HTHS is 5.0. So either use OEM Castrol, x8100, or Ravenol for track / aggressive driving. Reason are lowest viscosity cold and hot, and highest HTHS. Otherwise, Redline 5w50 is a good alternative for colder climate and track use. Redline 5w50 is the thickest of its weight, while being thinner than the thinnest 10w60.

Most important specs for our motors are thinnest viscosity of its class (bearing clearance) and HTHS (bearing protection). Everything else, not as important.

I hear a lot of "I've been using x for 2yrs, it's fine." Stick with OEM or find an oil that has the lowest viscosity and highest HTHS as OEM. Otherwise, don't move away if there's not improvements.

You might be interested in Mobil1 10w-60 then, if you can get it in the US.

Assimilator1 wrote

You might be interested in Mobil1 10w-60 then, if you can get it in the US.

Very nice. HTHS is 5.7. Murray Motorsport seems to carry them.

Signature Wheel BMW wrote

LM is junk, lower grade than OEM. HTHS is 3.5. Castrol HTHS is 5.0. So either use OEM Castrol, x8100, or Ravenol for track / aggressive driving. Reason are lowest viscosity cold and hot, and highest HTHS. Otherwise, Redline 5w50 is a good alternative for colder climate and track use. Redline 5w50 is the thickest of its weight, while being thinner than the thinnest 10w60.

Most important specs for our motors are thinnest viscosity of its class (bearing clearance) and HTHS (bearing protection). Everything else, not as important.

I hear a lot of "I've been using x for 2yrs, it's fine." Stick with OEM or find an oil that has the lowest viscosity and highest HTHS as OEM. Otherwise, don't move away if there's not improvements.

My point was that the first page of this thread needs a major update as many of these oils have updated formulas and the specs shown on front page won't match what you can buy today.

Liqui-Moly Race Tech does not have an HTHS of 3.5, their spec sheet only says "above 3.5" and that's the way their brand has chosen to handle marketing. I used to manage a shop and sold many brands of oil including LM, brought it up to their US sales department that they may want to list more relevant HTHS numbers because oil samples I sent in for analysis indicated that it had a competitively high HTHS in reality (it was something like 5.6 or 5.7 if I remember). LM headquarters decided not to update how they advertise their oil so they stick with "above 3.5".

Liqui-Moly is not the best option in my opinion but wanted to clarify this since it's a common misconception about their product.

Remonster wrote

My point was that the first page of this thread needs a major update as many of these oils have updated formulas and the specs shown on front page won't match what you can buy today.

Liqui-Moly Race Tech does not have an HTHS of 3.5, their spec sheet only says "above 3.5" and that's the way their brand has chosen to handle marketing. I used to manage a shop and sold many brands of oil including LM, brought it up to their US sales department that they may want to list more relevant HTHS numbers because oil samples I sent in for analysis indicated that it had a competitively high HTHS in reality (it was something like 5.6 or 5.7 if I remember). LM headquarters decided not to update how they advertise their oil so they stick with "above 3.5".

Liqui-Moly is not the best option in my opinion but wanted to clarify this since it's a common misconception about their product.

Do you happen to have a copy of that oil analysis report?

Remonster wrote

My point was that the first page of this thread needs a major update as many of these oils have updated formulas and the specs shown on front page won't match what you can buy today.

Liqui-Moly Race Tech does not have an HTHS of 3.5, their spec sheet only says "above 3.5" and that's the way their brand has chosen to handle marketing. I used to manage a shop and sold many brands of oil including LM, brought it up to their US sales department that they may want to list more relevant HTHS numbers because oil samples I sent in for analysis indicated that it had a competitively high HTHS in reality (it was something like 5.6 or 5.7 if I remember). LM headquarters decided not to update how they advertise their oil so they stick with "above 3.5".

Liqui-Moly is not the best option in my opinion but wanted to clarify this since it's a common misconception about their product.

Ximian wrote

Do you happen to have a copy of that oil analysis report?

It looks like (>=) More than or equal to 3.5 HTHS. It's been like this number on their website since at least 2012, you mean to tell no one ever caught the error or choose to update it to 5.7? Regardless, any motor oil company who doesn't publish the data is because they're hiding the result on purpose. My best guess it is around 5.0, similar or below Castrol TWS.

https://pim.liqui-moly.de/pdf/en_US/liqui/43/P000342

The unusually low HTHS was also discussed here:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/thoughts-on-liqui-moly-10w60.192465/

Signature Wheel BMW wrote

Remonster wrote

My point was that the first page of this thread needs a major update as many of these oils have updated formulas and the specs shown on front page won't match what you can buy today.

Liqui-Moly Race Tech does not have an HTHS of 3.5, their spec sheet only says "above 3.5" and that's the way their brand has chosen to handle marketing. I used to manage a shop and sold many brands of oil including LM, brought it up to their US sales department that they may want to list more relevant HTHS numbers because oil samples I sent in for analysis indicated that it had a competitively high HTHS in reality (it was something like 5.6 or 5.7 if I remember). LM headquarters decided not to update how they advertise their oil so they stick with "above 3.5".

Liqui-Moly is not the best option in my opinion but wanted to clarify this since it's a common misconception about their product.

Ximian wrote

Do you happen to have a copy of that oil analysis report?

It looks like (>=) More than or equal to 3.5 HTHS. It's been like this number on their website since at least 2012, you mean to tell no one ever caught the error or choose to update it to 5.7? Regardless, any motor oil company who doesn't publish the data is because they're hiding the result on purpose. My best guess it is around 5.0, similar or below Castrol TWS.

https://pim.liqui-moly.de/pdf/en_US/liqui/43/P000342

The unusually low HTHS was also discussed here:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/thoughts-on-liqui-moly-10w60.192465/

No, Liqui Moly doesn't have such high HTHS.
Second, VOA that determines HTHS is very expensive. Polaris, Blackstone etc. won't do that.
On other hand, yes, Liqui Moly is mediocre oil. They have always been. They were first to jump onto Hydrocracked train in 90's in Europe, advertising it as next best thing after sliced bread.

Has anyone tried the new Amsoil 10w-60 in their S65? The HTHS of 6.6 is so much higher that I was concerned, I don't know enough to know if this could be a bad thing so I asked their technical email. They told me there is no harm in having such a high HTHS result and they claim it would only improve wear protection and shear stability.

https://www.amsoil.com/p/amsoil-10w-60-fs-100-synthetic-european-motor-oil-ets/

Remonster wrote

Has anyone tried the new Amsoil 10w-60 in their S65? The HTHS of 6.6 is so much higher that I was concerned, I don't know enough to know if this could be a bad thing so I asked their technical email. They told me there is no harm in having such a high HTHS result and they claim it would only improve wear protection and shear stability.

https://www.amsoil.com/p/amsoil-10w-60-fs-100-synthetic-european-motor-oil-ets/

I’ve been recommend this too, and would like to find out more from others who have used it