EnVe46 wroteBro, u sold the 911 and got another m3 already? Wow. Welcome back but what happened. U didn’t like that much?. I drove a 991.1 S PDK too and was like eh I ain’t trading my car for this. And OP, what di you end up doing? Like you, I stay contemplating the 911 upgrade. Did you end up getting one?I had a 69 Camaro 427 in between the 911 and M3, but yes, I did come back to the M3
I wouldn't go off your experience at it sounds like that 997 wasn't up to spec. The 997.2S I drove was spot on, much more engaging than the 991.1S I bought. I think this has to do with hydraulic steering than anything, also being stick. PDK in the 991.1 I think is partly why I didn't enjoy it. Handling was fantastic and like I said, so good I couldn't push the car to its limits, it was far better than I was, especially since I wasn't on a track where it was safe to push it. That said, I feel I can push the M3 closer to where Im controlling it rather than the car itself. That made it not as fun for me. So, maybe its Im not a good enough driver for the 991.1 and that's ok for me to admit but also why its not the right car for me. Ultimately, I almost bought a 997 GT3 which I think is the sweet spot for 911s, for me. And boy do I wish I did cause Id be in a solid financial spot.
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cvstar9M3 wroteI ended up with an AMG GT S for 991.1 money. Still got great hydraulic steering, plus a real nasty V8 with as much character as a Porsche flat-6. :-)Bro, u sold the 911 and got another m3 already? Wow. Welcome back but what happened. U didn’t like that much?. I drove a 991.1 S PDK too and was like eh I ain’t trading my car for this. And OP, what di you end up doing? Like you, I stay contemplating the 911 upgrade. Did you end up getting one?
For what it's worth, I've had considerable seat time in an E92 and own a 997.2 C2S. They're very different cars. The M3 is larger, heavier, and rides higher than the 911. The standard brakes are not as good in the M3 either, but the overall flexibility of the E92 is significant. It has much more room in the cabin, is more insulated and compliant on long highway rides, and overall more "livable". That's not to say my 997 isn't, but you get lots of road noise and it truly is a two seater sports car. I also give the nod to the 997 steering feel. Overall more communicative and tight.
If it matters, PCM was way behind i-drive during that era too. In terms of speed, the C2S is faster out of the box. I find the flat 6 more engaging, but the S65 is also a masterpiece. The DCT vs PDK debate is interesting - I prefer the PDK upshifts and DCT downshifts. The automatic shifting on the PDK is slightly more intelligent too (sport / sport+ modes). From a reliability perspective, the 9A1 in the 997.2 is fairly bulletproof, with no real Achillies heel. Some complain about oil burn but I haven't experienced that. The engine requires driving, and runs smoother after a nice hard drive. Can't go wrong either way, both cars will be all time classics and I hope to own one of each soon.
PS - find a clean example to drive and you'll be shocked. Bought mine with 38k mikes, I have 45k now and it's a flawless driver.
If it matters, PCM was way behind i-drive during that era too. In terms of speed, the C2S is faster out of the box. I find the flat 6 more engaging, but the S65 is also a masterpiece. The DCT vs PDK debate is interesting - I prefer the PDK upshifts and DCT downshifts. The automatic shifting on the PDK is slightly more intelligent too (sport / sport+ modes). From a reliability perspective, the 9A1 in the 997.2 is fairly bulletproof, with no real Achillies heel. Some complain about oil burn but I haven't experienced that. The engine requires driving, and runs smoother after a nice hard drive. Can't go wrong either way, both cars will be all time classics and I hope to own one of each soon.
PS - find a clean example to drive and you'll be shocked. Bought mine with 38k mikes, I have 45k now and it's a flawless driver.
I always felt that my e92 and 991.1 GTS were cut from the same cloth. Both are grand touring cars IMHO and both felt heavy and over-insulated to me.
If I ever buy another P-car it will be a 997 which I would liken more to an e36 or e46 in terms of driving experience.
If I ever buy another P-car it will be a 997 which I would liken more to an e36 or e46 in terms of driving experience.
I was debating this very issue a couple months ago. Out of nowhere I got bit by the 911 bug and after many hours of research I decided a 997.2 C2S would be my ideal 911. However, after seeing prices north of $70-80k for a low mileage clean example, I decided against it pretty easily. I haven't driven one yet, but after reading some of the replies here it sounds like I'm not missing out on much compared to my e92 especially at 2-3x the cost. I would love to own both some day though, 911 is a life goal for sure.
LimeRock wroteThis guy gets it. The M3 is much quieter in stock form too. Its a highway crusher; I can go hours in a 911 but many more hours in an M3 on a long highway or city drive.For what it's worth, I've had considerable seat time in an E92 and own a 997.2 C2S. They're very different cars. The M3 is larger, heavier, and rides higher than the 911. The standard brakes are not as good in the M3 either, but the overall flexibility of the E92 is significant. It has much more room in the cabin, is more insulated and compliant on long highway rides, and overall more "livable". That's not to say my 997 isn't, but you get lots of road noise and it truly is a two seater sports car. I also give the nod to the 997 steering feel. Overall more communicative and tight.
If it matters, PCM was way behind i-drive during that era too. In terms of speed, the C2S is faster out of the box. I find the flat 6 more engaging, but the S65 is also a masterpiece. The DCT vs PDK debate is interesting - I prefer the PDK upshifts and DCT downshifts. The automatic shifting on the PDK is slightly more intelligent too (sport / sport+ modes). From a reliability perspective, the 9A1 in the 997.2 is fairly bulletproof, with no real Achillies heel. Some complain about oil burn but I haven't experienced that. The engine requires driving, and runs smoother after a nice hard drive. Can't go wrong either way, both cars will be all time classics and I hope to own one of each soon.
PS - find a clean example to drive and you'll be shocked. Bought mine with 38k mikes, I have 45k now and it's a flawless driver.
Lucky1 wroteThe road noise in a 911 is quite loud to my ears. I'd say it's one of the biggest compromises in the car.This guy gets it. The M3 is much quieter in stock form too. Its a highway crusher; I can go hours in a 911 but many more hours in an M3 on a long highway or city drive.
I thought I wanted a 911 then I test drove a 997.2 C2S side by side with my e90 M3. I got in my e90 after the experience and I didn't wish I was driving the 997. Same for the 991.1. I had the opportunity to spend a day driving various super cars/sports cars and one of them was a 991.1 C2S. It was a GREAT car but no part of the experience made me think it could replace my e90 M3. The experience with these cars made me realize the 911 is a great counterpart to the M3, not a replacement when you're talking about street use. So, morale of the store, I still want a 911 but now I know I need both.
Here's a post I made on a similar thread regarding 997.2 vs e9x
I purchased a 997.2 c4s 6 spd 3 years ago as my weekend toy. I will never forget driving the 911 for the first time and being incredibly underwhelmed. I looked at the sales guy and flat out said, man this is not what I expected. He just looked at me like… well you already bought it.
I replaced my daily a '13 s4, 6 spd stg 2 with an '08 m3 6spd earlier this year. In the beginning I honestly thought the m3 was more fun than the 911. Rwd and Bmw m dynamics coupled with the sound and feedback is quintessential m car. For a time I seriously considered selling the 911 to capitalize on the crazy price appreciation but also becuase the m3 is that good. I think I have a soft spot for v8 manual sedans and the look of the e90 is special. Every single day I still get excited to get into the e90, every tunnel or underpass I go through I give the throttle a good stab, and those sounds will never ever get old!
After 3 yrs of ownership I can say a 911 is a completely diff beast and in most aspects a better car than an e9x. The 911 also has a much greater presence if that's what your after. The 911 is iconic, the m3 is cool.
Hammering a 911 through curves is a pinnacle in driving experiences. The 911 has a much steeper learning curve and requires more seat time to really find the limits. Driving the 911 is rewarding to master. Rear engine flat six sounds are a unique impressive sound -the german engineering really comes out. The power curve on a na flat six is incredible to wring out to 7k rpm. The cockpit is much more driver focused and everything is where it should be. The limits on a e9x car are easier to get to IMO. Both need to be revved out to really enjoy.
Do your homework on 997.1 and 997.2 cars if you can swing a .2 that will be better now and in the long run. E9x values will never hold or appreciate like a 911. I wouldn't compare a low mileage e9x for $50k if you're going to daily it, save $25k and find a higher mileage one that's taken care of and drive it without a worry of miles, the experience of a 90k vs 30k mile car is just going to make you feel bad for putting miles on.
Check pca.org classifieds as those are generally well taken care of cars and pricing isn't insane there.
I purchased a 997.2 c4s 6 spd 3 years ago as my weekend toy. I will never forget driving the 911 for the first time and being incredibly underwhelmed. I looked at the sales guy and flat out said, man this is not what I expected. He just looked at me like… well you already bought it.
I replaced my daily a '13 s4, 6 spd stg 2 with an '08 m3 6spd earlier this year. In the beginning I honestly thought the m3 was more fun than the 911. Rwd and Bmw m dynamics coupled with the sound and feedback is quintessential m car. For a time I seriously considered selling the 911 to capitalize on the crazy price appreciation but also becuase the m3 is that good. I think I have a soft spot for v8 manual sedans and the look of the e90 is special. Every single day I still get excited to get into the e90, every tunnel or underpass I go through I give the throttle a good stab, and those sounds will never ever get old!
After 3 yrs of ownership I can say a 911 is a completely diff beast and in most aspects a better car than an e9x. The 911 also has a much greater presence if that's what your after. The 911 is iconic, the m3 is cool.
Hammering a 911 through curves is a pinnacle in driving experiences. The 911 has a much steeper learning curve and requires more seat time to really find the limits. Driving the 911 is rewarding to master. Rear engine flat six sounds are a unique impressive sound -the german engineering really comes out. The power curve on a na flat six is incredible to wring out to 7k rpm. The cockpit is much more driver focused and everything is where it should be. The limits on a e9x car are easier to get to IMO. Both need to be revved out to really enjoy.
Do your homework on 997.1 and 997.2 cars if you can swing a .2 that will be better now and in the long run. E9x values will never hold or appreciate like a 911. I wouldn't compare a low mileage e9x for $50k if you're going to daily it, save $25k and find a higher mileage one that's taken care of and drive it without a worry of miles, the experience of a 90k vs 30k mile car is just going to make you feel bad for putting miles on.
Check pca.org classifieds as those are generally well taken care of cars and pricing isn't insane there.
Rulaxin12 wroteThanks for sharing your experience! I enjoyed hearing your ownership story.Here's a post I made on a similar thread regarding 997.2 vs e9x
Putting the 997.2 T4S MT up for sale next week. the M3 is just better. All around. The 911 was so low, light and hated houston streets. The shift from 3rd to 4th was my absolute favorite, but two days in I wish I'd done this forever ago. The engine, but also the feel on so-so roads. Just love the M3 (MT, competition package, unmodified).
Also- people complaining about the shifter feel had me worried, I only drove a DCT in test drives. It's fantastic. Still may go weighted knob and replace bushings and mounts, but might not go auto solutions replacement.
Also- people complaining about the shifter feel had me worried, I only drove a DCT in test drives. It's fantastic. Still may go weighted knob and replace bushings and mounts, but might not go auto solutions replacement.
For daily and more street/canyon usage I would lean toward E9X but 997.2 could do it.
For special weekends I would lean 997.2 but E9X could do it.
For special weekends I would lean 997.2 but E9X could do it.
I’ve had extensive seat time in a 997.1 C2S MT, currently have a 981 Cayman S MT and am on my 3rd e9xM3.
997 Carrera S vs 981 Cayman S:
911 has significantly more tire/road noise, can be tiring as a daily driver for some. Also, driving normally and up to 7/10ths, you don’t really feel the rear weight bias.
Cayman road noise is manageable as a daily driver, mid engine feel can be experienced driving 5/10ths or more, cayman clearly has a sharper steering response which can be felt in daily driving. 911 maybe iconic but Cayman is surely the superior sports car, unless you go GT3.
Avoid 997.1 not due to IMS (relatively easy fix) but more so due to bore scoring issues which are popping up as these cars are aging & engine rebuild is the only fix $$$. 997.2 engine is reliable!
991.1 is still NA, reliable motor and much better as a daily driver but less analogue than 997. 997.2 & 991.1 both have same engine which is quieter that 997.1, so exhaust modification will improve the flat six sound.
Cayman/Carrera vs E9xM3:
M3 engine is truly special, especially if you have aftermarket/carbon fiber plenum/intake and a mild exhaust. M3 is much better as a daily driver & handling/steering feels soft compared to 911/cayman. M3 will need more & frequent maintenence but parts are cheaper. M3 can carry 4 adults in comfort!
In my opinion M3 & 911/Cayman should not be compared. Get a M3 for daily driver & a 911 or Cayman for weekend/track use.
I’ve tracked my M3 & Cayman multiple times, M3 sounds great as you keep revving it to redline but the 911/cayman handling on the track is much sharper & fun, all being stock! With suspension/brake/bushing modifications, the M3s tracking experience can be significantly elevated!
997 Carrera S vs 981 Cayman S:
911 has significantly more tire/road noise, can be tiring as a daily driver for some. Also, driving normally and up to 7/10ths, you don’t really feel the rear weight bias.
Cayman road noise is manageable as a daily driver, mid engine feel can be experienced driving 5/10ths or more, cayman clearly has a sharper steering response which can be felt in daily driving. 911 maybe iconic but Cayman is surely the superior sports car, unless you go GT3.
Avoid 997.1 not due to IMS (relatively easy fix) but more so due to bore scoring issues which are popping up as these cars are aging & engine rebuild is the only fix $$$. 997.2 engine is reliable!
991.1 is still NA, reliable motor and much better as a daily driver but less analogue than 997. 997.2 & 991.1 both have same engine which is quieter that 997.1, so exhaust modification will improve the flat six sound.
Cayman/Carrera vs E9xM3:
M3 engine is truly special, especially if you have aftermarket/carbon fiber plenum/intake and a mild exhaust. M3 is much better as a daily driver & handling/steering feels soft compared to 911/cayman. M3 will need more & frequent maintenence but parts are cheaper. M3 can carry 4 adults in comfort!
In my opinion M3 & 911/Cayman should not be compared. Get a M3 for daily driver & a 911 or Cayman for weekend/track use.
I’ve tracked my M3 & Cayman multiple times, M3 sounds great as you keep revving it to redline but the 911/cayman handling on the track is much sharper & fun, all being stock! With suspension/brake/bushing modifications, the M3s tracking experience can be significantly elevated!
I would be more interested in the comparison of the E92 M3 to a 2001-2005 Porsche 996 Twin Turbo AWD.
BimmerMan33 wroteThis perfectly summarizes my experiences driving some 996s, a 997.1, a cayman S and the latest cayman GTS compared to my m3.I’ve had extensive seat time in a 997.1 C2S MT, currently have a 981 Cayman S MT and am on my 3rd e9xM3.
997 Carrera S vs 981 Cayman S:
911 has significantly more tire/road noise, can be tiring as a daily driver for some. Also, driving normally and up to 7/10ths, you don’t really feel the rear weight bias.
Cayman road noise is manageable as a daily driver, mid engine feel can be experienced driving 5/10ths or more, cayman clearly has a sharper steering response which can be felt in daily driving. 911 maybe iconic but Cayman is surely the superior sports car, unless you go GT3.
Avoid 997.1 not due to IMS (relatively easy fix) but more so due to bore scoring issues which are popping up as these cars are aging & engine rebuild is the only fix $$$. 997.2 engine is reliable!
991.1 is still NA, reliable motor and much better as a daily driver but less analogue than 997. 997.2 & 991.1 both have same engine which is quieter that 997.1, so exhaust modification will improve the flat six sound.
Cayman/Carrera vs E9xM3:
M3 engine is truly special, especially if you have aftermarket/carbon fiber plenum/intake and a mild exhaust. M3 is much better as a daily driver & handling/steering feels soft compared to 911/cayman. M3 will need more & frequent maintenence but parts are cheaper. M3 can carry 4 adults in comfort!
In my opinion M3 & 911/Cayman should not be compared. Get a M3 for daily driver & a 911 or Cayman for weekend/track use.
I’ve tracked my M3 & Cayman multiple times, M3 sounds great as you keep revving it to redline but the 911/cayman handling on the track is much sharper & fun, all being stock! With suspension/brake/bushing modifications, the M3s tracking experience can be significantly elevated!
I wouldn’t think of a 997.1 or 996 (other than a turbo) due to bore scoring.
For what it's worth, I want to keep my M3 and own a 996 C2, using that as a daily, lol.
My M3 is already far gone for a street car, and the 996 C2 would fit comfortably as a daily since I don't have kids or anything else that matters except my wife. Although she might not approve of the 996 since it is an old car.
Maybe this might put me on the path towards a newer 991 Carrera S, lol. But there's just something about the 996C2/C4 I love so much; the M96 does suffer from its issues, but it makes a great noise, revs nicely, and has a unique sound.
I love the '98 model headlights compared to the '03 headlights. But there's just something about that last of the "analog" Porsches that gets to me. Now, I use the term "analog" loosely here as it does have a different meaning to most people.
Now, with that said, my friend's 986, although a different chassis, was capable in its own way, a German Miata, as you would call it.
I've also recently driven a track-spec'd 996 Turbo with a RWD conversion, and honestly, that car is DANGEROUS, lol. It just snaps the rear end like no other. You need full focus all the time when driving it anywhere near boost, even at under 450RWHP. Super fun, but I probably would've hated it if it didn't have the CAE and upgraded suspension components. The OEM shifter imo sucks... like the E9X M3 shifters lol.
A 996 Turbo would be the better daily stock compared to an E9X M3, to be honest, with torque being the main factor.
and if it means anything.. the value of the 996 it self is going up tremendously as people discover it and realize its the best bang for the buck entry level P-Car.
My M3 is already far gone for a street car, and the 996 C2 would fit comfortably as a daily since I don't have kids or anything else that matters except my wife. Although she might not approve of the 996 since it is an old car.
Maybe this might put me on the path towards a newer 991 Carrera S, lol. But there's just something about the 996C2/C4 I love so much; the M96 does suffer from its issues, but it makes a great noise, revs nicely, and has a unique sound.
I love the '98 model headlights compared to the '03 headlights. But there's just something about that last of the "analog" Porsches that gets to me. Now, I use the term "analog" loosely here as it does have a different meaning to most people.
Now, with that said, my friend's 986, although a different chassis, was capable in its own way, a German Miata, as you would call it.
I've also recently driven a track-spec'd 996 Turbo with a RWD conversion, and honestly, that car is DANGEROUS, lol. It just snaps the rear end like no other. You need full focus all the time when driving it anywhere near boost, even at under 450RWHP. Super fun, but I probably would've hated it if it didn't have the CAE and upgraded suspension components. The OEM shifter imo sucks... like the E9X M3 shifters lol.
A 996 Turbo would be the better daily stock compared to an E9X M3, to be honest, with torque being the main factor.
and if it means anything.. the value of the 996 it self is going up tremendously as people discover it and realize its the best bang for the buck entry level P-Car.
omgzirra_exe wroteNow that sounds exciting! Maybe too exciting?I've also recently driven a track-spec'd 996 Turbo with a RWD conversion, and honestly, that car is DANGEROUS, lol. It just snaps the rear end like no other. You need full focus all the time when driving it anywhere near boost, even at under 450RWHP. Super fun, but I probably would've hated it if it didn't have the CAE and upgraded suspension components. The OEM shifter imo sucks... like the E9X M3 shifters lol.
414bhp wroteim current debating on full sending a 99 C2 and just gutting as much as i can and make it a sub 2700lb car.. the M96 3.4L is much more reliable and doesnt suffer the same issues as the 3.8L although IMS is a given on both.Now that sounds exciting! Maybe too exciting?
but under 2700lbs.. 350hp.. that would be a RIOT as well.
BORE SCORING INCLUDES 997.2!!!
The 997.1 sounds better than the 997.2. I think the lack of noise coming from a 997.2 can take away from the performance. The only real solution is the fabspeed intake which will make the car sound great. It's worth the performance hit. The engine is just ok, but most 911's engines are just ok. If you add a high flow cat, and secondary muffler delete, you'll be even happier.
The M3 is a bigger heavier car and the steering is simply not the same. It does sounds better, and is more comfortable. It feels more susbstantial. The v8 sounds great. It is heavier and you can feel it. It's more of a GT car, and the Porsche is more of a sports car.
They are different machines, apples to oranges. Try a Ferrari 360, or a Aston Martin v8 Vantage. They maybe the next step up you are looking for and are pretty reliable. Even the GT350 might be the are really looking for.
I've owned all these cars stated, besides the Aston.
The 997.1 sounds better than the 997.2. I think the lack of noise coming from a 997.2 can take away from the performance. The only real solution is the fabspeed intake which will make the car sound great. It's worth the performance hit. The engine is just ok, but most 911's engines are just ok. If you add a high flow cat, and secondary muffler delete, you'll be even happier.
The M3 is a bigger heavier car and the steering is simply not the same. It does sounds better, and is more comfortable. It feels more susbstantial. The v8 sounds great. It is heavier and you can feel it. It's more of a GT car, and the Porsche is more of a sports car.
They are different machines, apples to oranges. Try a Ferrari 360, or a Aston Martin v8 Vantage. They maybe the next step up you are looking for and are pretty reliable. Even the GT350 might be the are really looking for.
I've owned all these cars stated, besides the Aston.
