weight of options.

Lol worrying about the weight of options is the single most pedantic, foolish and nonsensical thing you could possibly do when ordering an M3. I don't just mean to say that it's just follish to worry about this stuff, it's utterly worthless and I'll explain how.

I spent some time in the management of a small team of production car engineers working on a sports car and one task that we were specifically given was to balance the weight, comfort and performance. So let me hopefully offer an informed and level headed view on this.


Let's get the weight of the options straight first off, chances are that the difference between all the options (exluding DCT) and none of them is 100 lbs. The DCT probably adds somewhere in the neighborhood of 75 lbs, these numbers would be more in line with reality.

Let us assume though that we add 200 lbs to the M3 though if you compared the performance difference in grip and acceleration the difference from 200 lbs be would be less than 3% in cornering and 2% in acceleration.

2% & 3% seems almost significant, until you realize what you could do to counteract that difference. For example, keeping your fluids at a minimum and gas at 1/4 would almost entierly counteract the effect. You could also get a better brand of tire to more than counteract the added weight. Note: I said brand not type of tire, going with a more aggressive tire would blow the weight of options out of the water. You could also get the competiton package for handling and DCT for acceleration. Wait? What? Did I just say that getting more options will counteract the weight of options. Yes. Which brings me to my next point...

Avoiding EDC, ZCP, DCT and performance adding options for increased performance is not just stupid piled onto stupid which cutting yourself off from options to save weight is. It's counterproductivly retarded because the added performance of those options actually more than makes up for the weight. Yet some people actually proposed that as a good idea.

So if we start with a car that has EDC, ZCP & DCT which will be undoubtedly faster than a car that has none of those, the weight of all the other options combined is going to be somewhere around 100 lbs. The difference of adding 100 lbs is around 1% which is so small that the temperature of the air going into the engine and the temperature of the tarmac even during the same day will actually be more significant to performance than options. In fact just changing your tires more often and cleaning your air filter will make up for the weight of those options!


Don't get me wrong there is use in getting 1% performance gains from a car, but that use is limited to competition with a pro driver where all the other variables are perfect. Even an amateur driver in a racing event will have a million and one better things to do than worry about something that results in a 1% performance gain, such as tire warmers, using racing gas (which effects racing performance way more than 1% due to tighter tolerances) etc.


Anyways I hope that helps people stop worrying about about the weight of options which is totally ridiculous in any context for a street owner.

I truly enjoy reading your posts, was very insightful! Thank you Legion5 for sharing.

Legion5 wrote

Lol worrying about the weight of options is the single most pedantic, foolish and nonsensical thing you could possibly do when ordering an M3. I don't just mean to say that it's just follish to worry about this stuff, it's utterly worthless and I'll explain how.

I spent some time in the management of a small team of production car engineers working on a sports car and one task that we were specifically given was to balance the weight, comfort and performance. So let me hopefully offer an informed and level headed view on this.


Let's get the weight of the options straight first off, chances are that the difference between all the options (exluding DCT) and none of them is 100 lbs. The DCT probably adds somewhere in the neighborhood of 75 lbs, these numbers would be more in line with reality.

Let us assume though that we add 200 lbs to the M3 though if you compared the performance difference in grip and acceleration the difference from 200 lbs be would be less than 3% in cornering and 2% in acceleration.

2% & 3% seems almost significant, until you realize what you could do to counteract that difference. For example, keeping your fluids at a minimum and gas at 1/4 would almost entierly counteract the effect. You could also get a better brand of tire to more than counteract the added weight. Note: I said brand not type of tire, going with a more aggressive tire would blow the weight of options out of the water. You could also get the competiton package for handling and DCT for acceleration. Wait? What? Did I just say that getting more options will counteract the weight of options. Yes. Which brings me to my next point...

Avoiding EDC, ZCP, DCT and performance adding options for increased performance is not just stupid piled onto stupid which cutting yourself off from options to save weight is. It's counterproductivly retarded because the added performance of those options actually more than makes up for the weight. Yet some people actually proposed that as a good idea.

So if we start with a car that has EDC, ZCP & DCT which will be undoubtedly faster than a car that has none of those, the weight of all the other options combined is going to be somewhere around 100 lbs. The difference of adding 100 lbs is around 1% which is so small that the temperature of the air going into the engine and the temperature of the tarmac even during the same day will actually be more significant to performance than options. In fact just changing your tires more often and cleaning your air filter will make up for the weight of those options!


Don't get me wrong there is use in getting 1% performance gains from a car, but that use is limited to competition with a pro driver where all the other variables are perfect. Even an amateur driver in a racing event will have a million and one better things to do than worry about something that results in a 1% performance gain, such as tire warmers, using racing gas (which effects racing performance way more than 1% due to tighter tolerances) etc.


Anyways I hope that helps people stop worrying about about the weight of options which is totally ridiculous in any context for a street owner.

mkoesel wrote

Can you get leather manual seats? I was thinking that leather requires ZP2, which of course adds power seats.

No, you can't. I guess they assume is if you want the cloth seats, you don't want the other stuff.

Cheers,
e46e92

Legion5 wrote

Lol worrying about the weight of options is the single most pedantic, foolish and nonsensical thing you could possibly do when ordering an M3. I don't just mean to say that it's just follish to worry about this stuff, it's utterly worthless and I'll explain how.

I spent some time in the management of a small team of production car engineers working on a sports car and one task that we were specifically given was to balance the weight, comfort and performance. So let me hopefully offer an informed and level headed view on this.


Let's get the weight of the options straight first off, chances are that the difference between all the options (exluding DCT) and none of them is 100 lbs. The DCT probably adds somewhere in the neighborhood of 75 lbs, these numbers would be more in line with reality.

Let us assume though that we add 200 lbs to the M3 though if you compared the performance difference in grip and acceleration the difference from 200 lbs be would be less than 3% in cornering and 2% in acceleration.

2% & 3% seems almost significant, until you realize what you could do to counteract that difference. For example, keeping your fluids at a minimum and gas at 1/4 would almost entierly counteract the effect. You could also get a better brand of tire to more than counteract the added weight. Note: I said brand not type of tire, going with a more aggressive tire would blow the weight of options out of the water. You could also get the competiton package for handling and DCT for acceleration. Wait? What? Did I just say that getting more options will counteract the weight of options. Yes. Which brings me to my next point...

Avoiding EDC, ZCP, DCT and performance adding options for increased performance is not just stupid piled onto stupid which cutting yourself off from options to save weight is. It's counterproductivly retarded because the added performance of those options actually more than makes up for the weight. Yet some people actually proposed that as a good idea.

So if we start with a car that has EDC, ZCP & DCT which will be undoubtedly faster than a car that has none of those, the weight of all the other options combined is going to be somewhere around 100 lbs. The difference of adding 100 lbs is around 1% which is so small that the temperature of the air going into the engine and the temperature of the tarmac even during the same day will actually be more significant to performance than options. In fact just changing your tires more often and cleaning your air filter will make up for the weight of those options!


Don't get me wrong there is use in getting 1% performance gains from a car, but that use is limited to competition with a pro driver where all the other variables are perfect. Even an amateur driver in a racing event will have a million and one better things to do than worry about something that results in a 1% performance gain, such as tire warmers, using racing gas (which effects racing performance way more than 1% due to tighter tolerances) etc.


Anyways I hope that helps people stop worrying about about the weight of options which is totally ridiculous in any context for a street owner.

Thanks for your opinion. I think most posters were not advocating dumping EDC and such, or at least I wasn't, but things like power seats, folding mirrors, PDC, etc. that can add weight, with nothing to do whatsoever with performance.

Cheers,
e46e92

Legion5 wrote

Avoiding EDC, ZCP, DCT and performance adding options...

So if we start with a car that has EDC, ZCP & DCT which will be undoubtedly faster than a car that has none of those...

That DCT increases performance is elementary, has been proven, and is essentially accepted fact, yes. Clearly the performance advantage outweighs any disadvantages it may carry with it, weight included. Though personal preference still leads some to choose the manual (and there's nothing wrong with that).

EDC and ZCP? At best, unless we've got some hard data, the benefits these provide is a subjective matter. Would an M3 GTS with EDC be a faster car? I sincerely doubt that. Why do you believe so? If it would, then surely BMW would have included it with that car, no? As for ZCP, well the biggest piece of that is EDC. The slightly lowered suspension will have some benefit, but is it measureable in typical real world scenarios? Same for the software changes. Meaureable performance impact? I'd need to see some data to be convinced that these things make the car perform better and are worth the money. So, regardless of how little these things may weigh, why add any weight with no real payoff?

...is not just stupid piled onto stupid which cutting yourself off from options to save weight is. It's counterproductivly retarded...

That's some fairly caustic sounding language you've chosen there. If I didn't know better I'd say that you were trying to belittle us into buying into your rhetoric. I'll pass for now, but I encourage you to provide some data to back up what you are saying. That would make both for a very helpful post and good discussion.

2% & 3% seems almost significant, until you realize what you could do to counteract that difference.

Sure, but of course you could do the same for the stripped car too and now maybe you are up to a 5% or 6% weight advantage. It adds up. And I think that is exactly what the OP was getting at with his inquiry. How much does all the nickel and diming of gimick or feature x, y, and z, end up netting you in weigh gain? It's a very reasonable thing to ponder.

Anyways I hope that helps people stop worrying about about the weight of options which is totally ridiculous in any context for a street owner.

Well, I got the heaviest most expensive option there is - the convertible. So weight was far from my primary concern.

Yeah that's what I figured. So if the OP insists on leather as he'd said, then it looks like he'll get power seats, like it or not.

e46e92love wrote

No, you can't. I guess they assume is if you want the cloth seats, you don't want the other stuff.

Cheers,
e46e92

Don't let your wife/girlfriend in the car...weight savings 120 lbs? Become anorexic and lose 80 lbs. Total weight savings: 200 lbs. Now you can get all the options on the M3 and break even.

shift@red wrote

Fully loaded vs no options car is likely 150-200 lbs.

DCT alone adds about 50 lbs.
The motors on the seats are probably worth another 20-30 lbs too.

Unfortunately, even when you get manual seats, they still have some motors in them. IIRC, manual seats are only 11lbs lighter than power seats. So total saving is only 22lbs.

I actually track my car, so weight matters. I also only want one car to do everything as best as it can do. Hence m3 sedan over 911. But I can still care about weight AND comfort.

I'm actually thinking about replacing the front seats with recaro or something.

^ if weight like this (100 lbs here and there) really matters, you should consider stripping out components or buying a base model car with no Nav or EDC.
Read this:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135122


You're contradicting yourself by saying I want all the utilities of a street car and all utilities of a track car, you just can't have both. You can have varying combos of both, just look at how many variants of the 911 there are: 911s, 911 GT3, 911 GT3 RS, 911 GT3 Cup, 911 GT3 RSR (ALMS spec)


If your pockets are deep enough you should try to import a M3 GTS or a M3 GT4 and make it road legal.

You can also try changing the wheels, and brake package, that'll save massive unsprung weight, which really matters.

mdosu wrote

^ if weight like this (100 lbs here and there) really matters, you should consider stripping out components or buying a base model car with no Nav or EDC.
Read this:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135122


You're contradicting yourself by saying I want all the utilities of a street car and all utilities of a track car, you just can't have both. You can have varying combos of both, just look at how many variants of the 911 there are: 911s, 911 GT3, 911 GT3 RS, 911 GT3 Cup, 911 GT3 RSR (ALMS spec)


If your pockets are deep enough you should try to import a M3 GTS or a M3 GT4 and make it road legal.

You can also try changing the wheels, and brake package, that'll save massive unsprung weight, which really matters.

my car has no nav nor edc. only has the premium package (leather seats).

and I didnt say that I want all the utilities of a track and a street car. I said I want one car to do both as best as it can.

so if options == 100lbs, and seats == 100lbs, im down 200 (if I were to swap out seats). at what point does it become significant? people talk as if the added weight of the vert is significant (400lbs). I can easily tell the difference between having a passenger or not. 200lbs seems quite significant.

dizzyj wrote

my car has no nav nor edc. only has the premium package (leather seats).

and I didnt say that I want all the utilities of a track and a street car. I said I want one car to do both as best as it can.

so if options == 100lbs, and seats == 100lbs, im down 200 (if I were to swap out seats). at what point does it become significant? people talk as if the added weight of the vert is significant (400lbs). I can easily tell the difference between having a passenger or not. 200lbs seems quite significant.

The M3 is already designed to be the best of what it can do, that is a comfortable street car that's trackable. If you want a car that's more trackable than street, other's have pointed out the 911 GT3 or GT3rs is the one for you.

And no I see the E93 M3 as a GT car...not designed to do exactly what E92s are designed to do.


It sounds like you need to strip out components. Good luck:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135122

That weight loss thread is great, but all that stuff costs more money. Not ordering options from the factory actually costs less. So, to me, it doesn't even make sense to start talking about buying lower weight parts until you first get the car as "clean" as you can off the assembly line. Hence, dizzyj's post makes a heck of a lot of sense to me.

I should add that, even with no options, an M3 is still plenty luxurious in my opinion. You still get great, supportive seats and you still get a lot of convenience features. It's not like ordering a stripped M3 leaves you with the interior of a race car or something.

sprung weight will not be noticeable so add whatever options float your boat. you WON'T see a difference. Hell even an M3 loaded with 3 adult passengers seems only slightly more sluggish on the ring at speed. if you want to notice weight change, try for significantly lighter wheels, brakes, and tires. unsprung weight.

otherwise, its just a game. if you are into it thats cool, but don't get too caught up with it. driver training should be first thing anyone should do with this car.

DCT and moonroof tie for most weight.

0. Convertible- +400lbs
1. Moonroof- +~50lbs or 45lbs on a sedan since no CF roof to begin with
2. DCT- +44lbs
3. Fold down rear seats-+40lbs
4. Power seats ~20-30lbs
5. Sound/Navi/EDC roughly 10lbs each, no more than 20lbs

My car has no moonroof, no dct, no fold down rear seats, but it does have power seats and premium sound because it's exclusively a street car. loooove the sound system and the luxury in this rocketship

smmmurf wrote

DCT and moonroof tie for most weight.

0. Convertible- +400lbs
1. Moonroof- +~50lbs or 45lbs on a sedan since no CF roof to begin with
2. DCT- +44lbs
3. Fold down rear seats-+40lbs
4. Power seats ~20-30lbs
5. Sound/Navi/EDC roughly 10lbs each, no more than 20lbs

My car has no moonroof, no dct, no fold down rear seats, but it does have power seats and premium sound because it's exclusively a street car. loooove the sound system and the luxury in this rocketship

>>3. Fold down rear seats-+40lbs

wow, where did you get those amount?

karussell wrote

sprung weight will not be noticeable so add whatever options float your boat. you WON'T see a difference.

You definitely see a difference between E90/E92 vs. E93. And I don't just mean in chassis rigidity or cabin noise. Clearly there's a point at which extra sprung weight manifests itself in a performance penalty.

So we know there is a point where things become noticeable. 400lbs in chassis bracing and convertible hardware, tips the scale. Whether 200 lbs in luxury features and gadgetry, does too, well I don't know. Can someone prove that 200 lbs is, in fact, negligible? If so, please do. I would love to see the rationale and science that goes into making this determination.

That being said - YES - I wholeheartedly agree with you that driving classes are probably the best mod for most people.

shift@red wrote

Yes, I agree. I meant 20-30 lbs for BOTH seats going from full power to 'manual'.

I think worth the motors to have adjustable side bolsters. Rode in a Z3 and Z4 M coupe on the track with I think full manual seats, i.e. no adjustable side bolsters, and I was moving all around and had to brace myself against the door and I am medium sized. Do not have the same problem in my seats.

mkoesel wrote

You definitely see a difference between E90/E92 vs. E93. And I don't just mean in chassis rigidity or cabin noise. Clearly there's a point at which extra sprung weight manifests itself in a performance penalty.

So we know there is a point where things become noticeable. 400lbs in chassis bracing and convertible hardware, tips the scale. Whether 200 lbs in luxury features and gadgetry, does too, well I don't know. Can someone prove that 200 lbs is, in fact, negligible? If so, please do. I would love to see the rationale and science that goes into making this determination.

That being said - YES - I wholeheartedly agree with you that driving classes are probably the best mod for most people.

25lbs is worth about .2 sec around a 3 mile track in a Spec Miata at 1% of the weight of the car, but that is in a car with lots of grip and very little power.

I'm about a second slower around Infineon with a passenger than without one in most street cars I've driven (STI, Miata, etc.). I have no experience with the E9x M3 directly though.

I drove a familiar road with 4 passengers, 1 guy (~150lbs) 3 girls (~120lbs each). That's roughly 500lbs., the difference between coupe/convertible. I can tell you the braking was much much worse, took much more pedal effort to slow the car. Car had noticeably more body roll. Power wasn't bad though. I wonder if BMW has different amounts of brake boosting for the convertible to compensate for the extra weight. I'm sure the springs and shocks are quite a bit stiffer too.

karussell wrote

sprung weight will not be noticeable so add whatever options float your boat. you WON'T see a difference. Hell even an M3 loaded with 3 adult passengers seems only slightly more sluggish on the ring at speed. if you want to notice weight change, try for significantly lighter wheels, brakes, and tires. unsprung weight.

otherwise, its just a game. if you are into it thats cool, but don't get too caught up with it. driver training should be first thing anyone should do with this car.

+1 /thread